Soy vs. Dairy

hardtrainer

I've seen a lot of mention of soy of these boards, especially in this forum.
Usually the advice has been to switch from dairy to soy, for some unknown reason.

I just thought I'd bring this up becuase there really is no reason to switch to soy and more to the point, soy is not a good substitute for dairy. Nor is soy particularly safe.

With regards to dairy, I've said in another post that only about 5% of the Irish white population are lactose intolerant. This figure can be as high at 70% in non-european ethnicities. An actual allergy to milk protein is relatively rare and only affects about 1% of the worldwide population.

Soy on the otherhand is the second most common allergan. This is in part due to the fact that soy is an extremely cheap source of protein, oil and carbohydrate and as such is now in approximately 60% of processed foods in one form or another. Of the ~1% of the population with an allergy to milk protein, almost two thirds of these will also be allergic to one of the 15 known allergy causing proteins in soy.

But isn't soy the miracle food it was claimed to be in the 1990s? No, plain and simple. Yes, soy is a cheap foodstuff, rich in protein (>28%) and with healthy fats and complex carbohydrates. But along with this, soy contains more than 40 known toxic and bioactive chemicals, including :phytates, which block the body's uptake of minerals; enzyme inhibitors, which hinder protein digestion; and haemaggluttin, which causes red blood cells to clump together and inhibits oxygen up-take. Most controversially of all, soy contains high levels of the phytoestrogens (also known as isoflavones) genistein and daidzein, which mimic and sometimes block the hormone oestrogen.

The last ones are of particular importance for this forum. These phytoestrogens have been shown to mimc oestrogens in humans and can have devastating oestrogenic effects in men and women. For a start they contribute to and can initiate gynacomastea (male breasts) in men. In women they can upset the hormone balance and can affect fertility.

The research is ongoing but the initial results, which showed potential healthrisks associated with a soy-rich diet, show no signs of changing. In the UK, the US and Germany, this has led to government funding further research into the potential health risks that are likely to appear with longterm exposure to these chemicals.

The traditional view, which the soy industry capitalised on, was that Japanese and other Asian societies, which ate soy, suffered from lower rates of breast and prostate cancer, had lower incidence of osteoporosis and lower cholesterol. However, this is now attributed to different lifestyle choices and not to soy (i.e. more fresh vegetables and fish, far less processed foods). These same societies do however suffer from increased levels of thyroid, stomach, liver and pancreatic cancers (the phytoestrogens in soy have been shown to alter hormone levels in human thyroid).

Also, in Japan, the average person eats just two teaspoons (8g) of soy (not including fermented soy products) per day, whereas the average westerner consumes 220g (thats just one large piece of tofu and 2 glasses of soy milk). The calcium content of soy is also negated by the phytate content of soy (which blocks absorption of minerals, including calcium). To combat this, one would need to eat large quatities of fish (which the japanese do!!) with very small quantities of soy.

Soy sauce is different. The long fermentation process destroys these chemicals (whereas cooking does not!). Ever wondered why soy milk tastes the way it does? That'll be the high levels of aluminium in it. Soy protein isolate (which soy milk is made from) is acid-washed in large aluminium tanks.

A study which is nearing completion in the US right now, focusing on the effects of a high soy diet on developing foetuses, has already warned that male babies have a five-fold increased risk of hypospadias (defect of the penis), likely a result of the high phytoestrogen levels. Also, babies fed with soy-based baby formulas have been shown to have between 13,000 and 22,000 times the level of isoflavones (phytoestrogens). The risk of developing thyroid problems is doubled in these babies compared to babies fed non-soy formulas. In male babies this can also lead to slower physical maturation, while in girls it can lead to early onset of puberty (as early as 3) and infertility.

Convinced yet? Well, one last point. Rats fed on a soy-rich diet were shown to deposit fat differently and to a greater extent than rats fed non-soy foods (where both groups consumed the same amount of calories).

I'm sorry for the long post, but people are too quick to abandon dairy for soy IMO, when really the evidence is stacked against soy as a viable or safe alternative to dairy. And most importantly, for those who wish to gain muscle, soy protein is really not a good bet.

rsynnott

Sponsored by the national dairy council

Seriously, if you want, you'll be able to dig up plenty of similar studies on milk, particularly with relation to prostate cancer.

jman0

Another reason to drink Soya milk is that it's liberating oneself from the Dairy Industry.

PJG

hardtrainer wrote:

I just thought I'd bring this up becuase there really is no reason to switch to soy and more to the point, soy is not a good substitute for dairy. Nor is soy particularly safe.

With regards to dairy, I've said in another post that only about 5% of the Irish white population are lactose intolerant. This figure can be as high at 70% in non-european ethnicities. .

As you say: The lactose intolerance is really based on ethnic background.

Soy really works for some people. I know of people who have resolved respiratory problems by switching to Soya.

I believe its down to genetics, geographical location and blood type.

One part I can vouch for is a product produced from Soya and its lecithin granules, this stuff has many health benefits when taken with B –complex. Besides the health benefits (alzheimer's, heart disease, strokes, memory) athletes can get good use from it as it helps break down and metabolize nutritional fats and is even know to break down existing body fat stores.

rsynnott

PJG wrote:

As you say: The lactose intolerance is really based on ethnic background.

Soy really works for some people. I know of people who have resolved respiratory problems by switching to Soya.

I've banished such problems by simply abandoning milk without substitute myself.

PJG wrote:

I believe its down to genetics,

That's known to be the case.

PJG wrote:

geographical location

They'll give you the Nobel Prize if you can prove that one.

PJG wrote:

and blood type.

Sorry, what?

PJG

rsynnott wrote:

Sorry, what?

There are reports that claim different blood types are better able to digest and break down differemt foods
quote -

'The Blood Type Diet, popularized by the best-selling book Eat Right For Your Type by Peter D’Adamo, ND, is based on the theory that people with different blood types respond differently to specific foods. Dr. D’Adamo’s ideas are rooted in evolutionary history, and, specifically, the observation that different blood types (Type O, Type A, Type B, and Type AB) emerged as the environmental conditions and eating styles of our ancestors changed. Between 50,000 BC and 25,000 BC, all humans shared the same blood type—Type O. These early humans were skilled hunters, and thrived on a meat-based diet. The Type A blood type emerged between 25,000 BC and 15,000 BC, a necessary adaptation to a more agrarian lifestyle. Climatic changes in the western Himalayan mountains led to the appearance of Type B, and the blending of Type A and Type B blood types in modern civilization resulted in the appearance of the Type AB blood type.

Dr. D’Adamo believes that our ancestors’ successful adaptation to environmental changes hinged on the relationship between diet and blood type. As a result, he believes that the key to optimal health is to eat as our ancestors with the same blood type ate. For example, D’Adamo recommends that people with Type O blood eat a diet rich in meat and people with Type A blood follow a grain-based, low-fat, vegetarian diet.

In the Blood Type Diet, foods are divided into 16 categories: meats and poultry; seafood; dairy and eggs; oils and fats; nuts and seeds; beans and legumes; cereals; breads and muffins; grains and pasta; vegetables; fruit; juices and fluids; spices; condiments; herbal teas; and miscellaneous beverages. Foods in these categories are then labeled as “highly beneficial,” “neutral,” or “avoid” according to each of the four blood types.'

PJG

rsynnott wrote:

They'll give you the Nobel Prize if you can prove that one.

Its a well know fact that milk intolerance is higher in Asia and Africa compared with Europe.

PJG

rsynnott wrote:

I've banished such problems by simply abandoning milk without substitute myself.

My point was that giving up dairy products resolved the problem

Apologies if I gave the impression that soya resolved the problems.

rsynnott

PJG wrote:

My point was that giving up dairy products resolved the problem

Apologies if I gave the impression that soya resolved the problems.

No, no, I was just making a comment.

PJG wrote:

Its a well know fact that milk intolerance is higher in Asia and Africa compared with Europe.

Yes, however it is a product of genetics and NOT geographic location. There is no "Milk Line" which when crossed causes lactose intolerance; it is simply that people who traditionally lived in Europe developed a lactose tolerance. Geographic LOCATION has nothing to do with it.

PJG wrote:

There are reports that claim different blood types are better able to digest and break down differemt foods
quote -

There are also reports that magnets cure cancer and that badly-behaved children are aliens.

PJG

rsynnott wrote:

No, no, I was just making a comment.
Yes, however it is a product of genetics and NOT geographic location. There is no "Milk Line" which when crossed causes lactose intolerance; it is simply that people who traditionally lived in Europe developed a lactose tolerance. Geographic LOCATION has nothing to do with it.

I never mentioned anything about a milk line. Last time I checked Asia and Africa are geographical locations. I never said everyone from these locations had an intolerance\allergy with milk. They do have the highest incidents due to there genetics which are more than likely to be a result of the geographical location the were born.
Just like I said genetics are a factor but not everyone with genetics has an intolerance\allergy with milk.

Genetics, geographical location and blood group are related contributing factors.

rsynnott

PJG wrote:

They do have the highest incidents due to there genetics which are more than likely to be a result of the geographical location the were born.

No, they are more likely to be a result of their PARENTS.

PJG

rsynnott wrote:

No, they are more likely to be a result of their PARENTS.

Again apologies, I should have assumed that most people would have the intelligence to know how we inherit our genetics from our parents. Next time I’ll spell it out in simpler terms. Our ancestor’s genetics are influenced by geographical location where they evolved.

rsynnott

PJG wrote:

Again apologies, I should have assumed that most people would have the intelligence to know how we inherit our genetics from our parents. Next time I’ll spell it out in simpler terms. Our ancestor’s genetics are influenced by geographical location where they evolved.

Ah, so instead of "lactose intolerance being influenced by... geographic location" you MEANT to say ".. geographic origin(s) of ancestors"? They're rather different things, you know

PJG

rsynnott wrote:

Ah, so instead of "lactose intolerance being influenced by... geographic location" you MEANT to say ".. geographic origin(s) of ancestors"? They're rather different things, you know

I ment exactly what i said

"lactose intolerance being influenced by... geographic location"

If some one with a milk intolerance living in a country with no milk products and moves to a country where dairy products are in nearly all manufactured products, then its a geographic location problem in more ways than one

over and out for the weekend

have a good one

Easygainer

I haven't bothered reading the other posts, but here's my 2 cents on it.

If you want to see how dairy affects you, stop talking milk etc for a while and when you go back to it see the difference. I never take milk anymore whereas I used to always take it. When I do take it I get phlegmy, and get a blocked nose in bed etc.

As for soy? I'm a man and value my masculinity. Soy protein sources have phytoestrogens in them - that means they basically have female hormones.

I therefore stay away from both of these as much as possible. The most milk I ever really have is in my weekly cheat meal in a milk shake or ice cream!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

poobum

Easygainer wrote:

I haven't bothered reading the other posts, but here's my 2 cents on it.

If you want to see how dairy affects you, stop talking milk etc for a while and when you go back to it see the difference. I never take milk anymore whereas I used to always take it. When I do take it I get phlegmy, and get a blocked nose in bed etc.

As for soy? I'm a man and value my masculinity. Soy protein sources have phytoestrogens in them - that means they basically have female hormones.

I therefore stay away from both of these as much as possible. The most milk I ever really have is in my weekly cheat meal in a milk shake or ice cream!

not even in protein shakes? what protein do u use? i cant imagine using optium nutrition without milk...it wud be nasty!

Easygainer

poobum wrote:

not even in protein shakes? what protein do u use? i cant imagine using optium nutrition without milk...it wud be nasty!

With water most of the time, grape juice after workouts. I'd love to take vanilla w/ milk (my fav combo) but I just can't have it that way!!! Trust me, if you have a very fast metabolism and have no adverse effects from milk, horse it out of it!

PJG's point about geographical location affecting tolerance seems entirely plausible in theory though. Geographical location determines a lot of your genetics so I don't see why it wouldn't affect tolerance of indigenous elements to diet... [On this point I find it hilarious that most people when talking about the digestibility of milk refer to that scene in Lock Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels - thanfully thath hasn't been cited here!]

Transform

The major point on milk is what has been done to the cows that produce the milk!!

They are fed oestrogenic drugs to make them produce more milk and a host of other unnatural drugs that will people eventually end up consuming.

This has turned what was once a wholesome food into something our body is at pains to digest.

rsynnott

To an extent; milk does also contain a human growth hormone analogue, though, and it is worth noting that humans are the only animals to routinely drink any sort of milk past infancy.

SBob

Hmm.. nice debate above..:D

I cut out dairy without replacing it with Soy products, whats wrong with just drinking water and black tea? easy! Same with bread, i just have a salad for lunch with some qiun'wa or pasta, i dont miss it at all.

As for the geographical location debate, i like the idea of a 'milk line'!! haha

Along the same lines, when westerners came to australia first, they obviously brought achohol with them, or rather started to cultivate crops that would produce beer and wine. Previously to this there was no naturally growing crops in the whole of australia that could produce alcohol. Because of this for the 45 thousand years the aborigines existed in oz they never had any alcohol. Now they have alcohol in abundance but absoutly no tolerance for it, relative to their white neighbours. I have no idea if this tolerance like this can be developed genetically through generations, but i suppose its possible!

hardtrainer

People can go on and on about how bad milk is for you, but the data just doesn't justify the bad rep.
As for the genetics discussion, I'm a biologist, working in genetics and I can tell you, geographical location can tell you a lot about the genetics of a population as a whole, but very little about any individual.

There is a very good reason why humans, particularly those of European descent, are tolerant of lactose past the first couple of years of life, it's a very nutritional food and was easily obtained from the animals that early farming people of Europe cultivated. Farming spread quickly in Europe, but was spread far slower in other parts of the world. People with Asian or African backgrounds are often less tolerant of milk (still only about 70% of the population) simply because there wasn't necessarily any advantage in being so.

I do not believe that milk should be a staple in anyones diet. If you can tolerate dairy without any adverse effects then by all means go for it. I can't tolerate full fat milk but slimline milk does not affect me at all so thats what I drink. I started this threat because so many people seem to portray soy as a suitable and viable alternative which it is not.

I don't want to go into the milk is/isn't bad regress, thats neither here nor there. The point of this was to alert people to the simple fact that soy DOES affect the body in ways that are not discussed or explained by the soy and alternative foods industries. The phytoestrogens in soy are higly potent and not easily removed.

Also, anyone who claims soy has worked for them, spend some time looking through the medical journals and check for yourself the real truth about soy so you can at least make an informed decision about whether you're prepared to take the risks associated with it.

Macha

Ill just say this:

I know two people cuurently training for the Winter Olympics next February in Turin (One of whom is the only Irish person to have qualified so far). Both of them drink Soya milk as it takes less time for their stomachs to digest and they can get out and train without feeling sluggish.

Soya is the way to go