Scandals damaging faith

Dellgirl

Many people are very angry about the way the catholic church has conducted itself over the years in relation to the behavior of some of its ordained.
How badly has this affected your faith in the church? Does this differ from your faith in Go/Jesus or is it all the one. Have you diaassociated yourself from the churchas a result or have you come to Romes aid when she needs you most?
The last great threat to the church - in Ireland at least - was during famine times- but was it on this scale?
Alot of questions I know, but Id like to see some solid results in relation to this.
What you all think?

hairyheretic

IMO faith and religion are two entirely different things.

Faith (I prefer the term spirituality) is your connection with whatever you believe in.

Religion is all the man made stuff around that .. churches, rituals, priests and all the rest of it.

Its entirely possible to have faith and need no association with any of the trappings of religion.

Smiegel

I think you need another option there to blame the perpretrators and their superiors who covered up what was happening and the general attitude of the church in protecting itself at all cost. I will still stand by the RC church because the majority of preists on the ground make a great contribution to society and without them we'd become soulless pagans.

I cant understand how this all went on during JPII's watch.

hairyheretic

Smiegel wrote:

I will still stand by the RC church because the majority of preists on the ground make a great contribution to society and without them we'd become soulless pagans.

Nice to see religious bigotry is still alive and well. :mad:

Puck

My faith is in God not men, so it can't be damaged by them.

Asiaprod

--I cant understand how this all went on during JPII's watch--


It did not take place under him, he was was also part of the problem. He was made aware of it and IMO he did not act in an appropriate manner.

Dellgirl

Ok so. How would society in Ireland differ today if these issues were highlighted when they should have been? Would the laundries have been able to exist for so long? Would the troubles in the North have been as bad if the republic wasnt so heavily influenced by the church and there was less of a percieved cause to fight for - leaving the territorial issue aside. Or is it possible to discuss one with out the other?

I think you need another option there to blame the perpretrators and their superiors who covered up what was happening and the general attitude of the church in protecting itself at all cost.

Im not going to add in the suggested choice on the poll because the church is the perps and the higher ranking of the church. i do not think it is possible to seperate them. You brought up a very intersting point - cost - what do you mean by this? Cost in money or reputation or standing.

Speaking for myself, Im happy enough to see the day when the parish priest ruled with a rod of iron gone. When I was younger, I hated seeing perfectly reasonable otherwise people turning into fawning idiots when the priest came around. I hated the self righteous superior attitude doled out to the layman by them. I heard one priest (circa 1989) denounce a local girl from the altar because she fell pregnant at 15 years old.
I am from a very rural area and maybe attitudes lingered even more behind the time there. In fact, im sure of it. The church has never moved on making women equal to man - except when their hand is forced by an evolving society and as a woman this chokes me somewhat.
I find the RCC to be cruel and unjust and a source of spiritual suffering. I grew up to love Jesus as taught but now i feel like the rug has been torn out from under my feet. Maybe my faith was not strong enough in the first place but I become distressed when i think of all that has happenned to the force that ruled my life for so long. A crisis that can be resolved or no?

Asiaprod

Dellgirl wrote:

I find the RCC to be cruel and unjust and a source of spiritual suffering. I grew up to love Jesus as taught but now i feel like the rug has been torn out from under my feet. Maybe my faith was not strong enough in the first place but I become distressed when i think of all that has happenned to the force that ruled my life for so long. A crisis that can be resolved or no?

You sound angry and hurt. That is understandable. I fear, however, that your anger is leading to a little confusion. Let me state a couple of facts to try and clear up matters
1. Your God did not let you down, his church let you down. Strange coming from a Buddhist:rolleyes: .
2. The force that rules your life should be your faith in your god, his church is mortal and is open to abuse as has been documented time and again.
3. We seem to have consensus on this board that it would be an act of grave disrespect to tar all the clergy for the sins of the few.
4. Can the crises be resolved? That is exactly what we are trying to debate.
So rather than let the anger destroy what you appear to cherish, use it constructivley to help find a solution. I really hate to use these two as an example, I will probably get crucified for this :eek:, look at what Geldof and Bone have started for world aid.
:eek:

UU

Smiegel wrote:

I think you need another option there to blame the perpretrators and their superiors who covered up what was happening and the general attitude of the church in protecting itself at all cost. I will still stand by the RC church because the majority of preists on the ground make a great contribution to society and without them we'd become soulless pagans.

I cant understand how this all went on during JPII's watch.

Smiegel, you made an interesting point that some clergy are good, decent people who do try to make a great contribution to society but I think you're a total bigot for discriminating against pagans just like the RC Church did. Many Pagans are highly spiritual people who are anything but souless and I'd like to see more Pagans in society.

I've abandoned the RC Catholic Church and dod not wish to be associated with it. I discovered that I was homosexual and staying in an organisation that is hostile towards my sexuality and I, is too hurtful. I'm happy(gay, lol) though as I've discovered, Unitarian Universalism, which is a liberal church that likes me for who I am and is controlled the congregation and not any higher authorities. It saddens me that the RC Church has caused so much damage to itself as it is a nice religion that has a lot of decent beliefs through Christ and many clergy and nuns do a lot of good by helping homeless, poor people, etc. and it seems unfair that they have to suffer because of those few who decide to inflict harm upon others and abuse the religion. I think the RC Church needs to go through "self-Reformation 2".

Excelsior

I am a Christian. That means I follow the Christ, Jesus. I am not a Catholic or a Protestant or an Anabaptist. I am a Christian.

My relationship with Jesus Christ is in no way dependent upon the behaviour of others. I am astounded that the testimony of the Scriptures are so utterly disregarded by all sides in these debates.

TakeDown247

Thats what I want to be a christian and follow Christ I'm learning about Christ and finding it interesting allthough I don't belong to any church
and have no plans to join one yet my family are Roman Catholics but i'm not because I have been put of the catholic church by what the media have said about them but i've not been put of God and Jesus

panda100

UU wrote:

I think the RC Church needs to go through "self-Reformation 2".

I was thinking about this the other day and i think the scandals really will be the downfall of the church in Ireland.But this needs to happen cos sometimes things have to hit rock bottom till they realise something must be done.So i reckon the church in Ireland will totally disintegrate after these scandals.Young Iirish people are disgusted at what those priests did and rightly so.The whole of the the spirituality and heart of the rc church in Iireland has totally gone and it is just a church of rules,recitations and regulations now.However the church in ireland has to hit rock bottom now so it can build itself up again to become a spiritual and heart felt religion again and not an authoritarian one.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

I am astounded that the testimony of the Scriptures are so utterly disregarded by all sides in these debates.

Welcome back, could you expand on that a little (A LITTLE:rolleyes:). The general vein seems to be on the Church's actions and I am not sure how the scriptures relates to this issue.
In the RC world, the church represent the God. Despite what the scriptures say, the church, the representative, is the one who commited the crime, not the God. Nobody has refuted the scriptures, they are talking about the representatives. If the representative, and especially Mr. Infallible in the Vatican, is ignoring the scriptures, how can one expect the people to refer to the scriptures when their representative does not......does this make sense?

smidgy

My relationship with Jesus Christ is in no way dependent upon the behaviour of others.

I think that Excelsior has made a good point here - if you faith relies on the actions of others then it is at the mercy of others and is not really a solid foundation to build your faith upon. If you base your faith on Jesus as the son of God, no matter how other people behave your faith should not be affected.

I am however 100% RC and will stay that way despite the latest scandals. I think the contribution that the RC church has made in spreading the word of God throughout the world has been immense. I believe that the damage caused by the preists/bishops does not outweigh the continuing contribution of the RC church in bringing the word of God to people. (Let those who have sinned answer for their own sins) It is the teachings of the catholic church that are important to us, they are the same now that they were five, ten , fifty years ago. Were you questioning their theological foundation then?

Excelsior

I broadly agree with what you have said Smidgy but you are fooling only yourself if you think the RC Church's beliefs today are the same as they were pre-Vatican II 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago.

This is one of the assertions of Roman Catholicism that I find most difficult to deal with.

Excelsior

Asiaprod wrote:

Welcome back, could you expand on that a little (A LITTLE).

I'll be fast. Our Christian faith is not in a church, nor in our teachers, but in the Jesus revealed in the Bible. As we have discussed before, I am a member of a Presbyterian church. As a very young man, there are three (and four if you are being a bit broader) leaders in the my church who are officially charged with mentoring me and helping me in the task of my spiritual formation. I deeply respect each of these men and look up to them. Each of them are remarkable.

If I found out that they one of these guides had major and disturbing sin in their life I would be deeply disappointed but in no way surprised. Jesus, the great Physician, is clear in his diagnosis, every person is plagued by sin. The rest of the Bible reasserts this primary fact- we mess up constantly.

So when we discover that leaders in our church, aided in no small part by the officials of the state and enabled by a general populace happy to cede their rightful responsibilities to an authoritarian religious institution, have committed such unspeakable atrocities, it is sad for me that no one looks to what the Scriptures have to say. No newspaper pundit or radio host is going to comment that Jesus' main foes were the religious establishment of the Pharisees and Saducees. No one is going to quote James' advice on leaders considering deeply the cost of guiding the Christian flock. I have yet to hear anyone consider Paul's repeated focus on the flawed nature of Man being brought into any discussion.

Scripture, though, is clear that as we are to expect systematic abuse in any organisation with humans in it, we are therefore to expect such failures in churches. It also asserts that the Christian leader who slips like this will be considered and judged differently and harder because of the position they have chosen for themselves.

I think it fruitful to consider the Irish Roman Catholic Church's reticence to rely on Scripture and the state of their 20th Century malaise. If there is hope, it lies in the proles. The Catholics who are left need to set about falling in love with the Bible. It is an astounding book and ultimately, it is the foundation upon which any considered faith in Jesus and God rests. Efforts by some in the church to encourage small bible study groups led by lay parishoners at a local level is a major first step to this possible renewal.

Maybe I am just being biased and speaking from my own shoulder's chip, but whole-hearted engagement by the clergy on a local level with the true universal, invisible church, the greater Christian community across denominational boundaries is the next step. Finally, wholesale discarding of wealth would be the beginning of a revolutionary faith-guided journey back into authenticity.

Does that make sense Peter?

Asiaprod

Excelsior, Vey nice....and short too:)

I believe that a little humility would do the church a power of good, and loosing a lot of its wealth is a great way to achieve that.
They also need to loose some of their arrogence and step back 2,000 years to a time where the church was a little more subseviant and supportive. At the end of the day, no matter what area you select, it must alway be about the people and not the leaders. Man can never be infalible, it goes aginst the grain of what being human is all about. We make mistakes and learn from them. We do not, at least where I come from, make mistakes and hide behind the seal of infalibility. My mum would call that sweeping it under the carpet. There must be miles and miles of carpet in the Vatican, room for an awful lot of dust!!!