I'll never slow play agin after this hand

The Troll

Was playing $1/$2 NL on VC last night.

Got dealt AA on the SB.

3 Limpers, I raised to $8.

BB and 1 limper called.

Flop comes 4A8 rainbow.

I checked, mainly because i wanted some action on this hand. I was well above my starting buy-in and my raises were getting alot of respect on the table. I knew if i'd raised here then it would've been folded around the table to me and I would've made a small amount on a premium hand.

BB who has been very aggressive post-flop placed a pot size bet. Next to play folds and I smooth called hoping to milk as much as possible.

Turn card is a 6. Again, I check, and the BB bets 2xPot. Sudddenly, I have this sinking feeling that he's suddenly gone in the lead. I felt so angry about my play, that I called the bet anyway, regardless of the fact that i thought i was behind.

River comes with the phattest ace i've ever seen in my life. As he'd been aggressive on every street, I knew he'd raise all-in if i checked to him. I did and as predicted, he pushed and i instantly called.

He turned over 57 and cursed me for 15minutes after for calling his turn bet.
If it had been me, i wouldve been cursing as well.

I've lost a few big pots recently by slow playing premium hands and getting outdrawn. This one has thought me a valuable lesson, as this was a hand that i got out of jail on.

How would you have played this hand, in my position if you thought any bet on the flop would result in a fold around the table?

CoD

Did you tell him you had more outs to make a house/quads than he had on a gutshot?

You were unlucky. He made the gutshot and lucky on the river.
Personally I'm pushing him on the turn bet. Fair enuff if he's playing 57 when on a x3 raise.

You played it fine.

Vikings

It's how I would have played it, though I may have re-raised him a bit on his bet on the flop. What was the payout in the end?

Samba

Slow playing here is fine, so long as you can spot when you go behind. I would have called his bet on the turn regardless of whether i thought i was ahead or not as you still have outs and if you hit, you know you are going to take down his stack, he could also be on a lower set.

This is a nice clean flop for the mother of all sets.

Hectorjelly

Slowplaying is not really fine here. When you slowplay it with the intention of someone making a 2nd best hand (or if they will bluff off all their chips). What 2nd best hand will people make here? If you check and then give a lot of action later in the hand they will put you on AAA or AK anyway. Just bet the flop and hope someone has something that they can call or raise you with.

As for the turn there is no way you had odds to call implied or otherwise if he bet three times whats in the pot, you can only call if you think that he doesnt have the straight a good proportion of the time.

Daithio

Well it's very hard to put him on the made straight on the turn after the raise preflop. I don't see any problem in slowplaying here, alot of bad players will assume you don't have the ace if you don't bet it and will think they're second pair is good. If you bet it however they will drop second pair faster than lightning. There is very little danger in slowplaying as the only thing that'll beat you is a straight on the turn or river, something which is quite unlikely and also you've got alot of outs for the house or quads. If you bet at this on the flop every time you will not be making nearly as much as you could with this sort of hand in the long run. Granted sometimes you will get outdrawn but that's a risk you should be williing to take.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

Well it's very hard to put him on the made straight on the turn after the raise preflop. I don't see any problem in slowplaying here, alot of bad players will assume you don't have the ace if you don't bet it and will think they're second pair is good. If you bet it however they will drop second pair faster than lightning. There is very little danger in slowplaying as the only thing that'll beat you is a straight on the turn or river, something which is quite unlikely and also you've got alot of outs for the house or quads. If you bet at this on the flop every time you will not be making nearly as much as you could with this sort of hand in the long run. Granted sometimes you will get outdrawn but that's a risk you should be williing to take.

The main reason you bet the flop is not to protect you hand, its to build a big pot where you have a huge hand. Checking the flop makes it easier to get paid off a little, but betting means that you can often stack people. At low limits people will often call bets with 2nd pair trying to draw out on your AK. Let them! They are drawing dead and every penny they put in the pot is going to you. When you check the flop and then give a lot of action later in the hand even the fishiest player suspects something.

The second biggest mistake low/medium stakes cash players make is not making enough on their big hands, and this is a text book example. In a tournament the decision would be totally different because the stacks are a lot shallower and if you check to someone twice they will often pot commit themselves.

A bet on the flop means the bet on the river is exponentially bigger then if its checked through. If you think about all of the hands that you play a groups, if you check this flop everytime you raise with AA KK QQ and flop top set on a dry board but bet with an overpair, you will tend to play smaller pots than with your almost unbeatable hands. This is a disaster.

The Troll

A bet on the flop means the bet on the river is exponentially bigger then if its checked through.

What if its folded around and you make nothing?

To incrediblebulk it was just under 900$.

Daithio

Ok, point taken. Most of my replies are tailored for tournament play, I don't play many cash games. In a tourney I definitely check this flop, I probably would in a cash game too, but I accept that this could be/probably is the wrong play. It depends on the table too though, and whether or not the original raiser is one to follow through regardless of the flop. Sometimes though you could find yourself at a table where the only way you are getting paid is if the other ace is out, in this situation I bet it and hope that somebody is sitting with AK, AQ, AJ.

Tackle

With only two limpers and a very draw unfriendly board, I'd check the flop too. If someone has a set already you'll have no problem getting them to put their chips in the middle later on, and if not they'll have a chance to develop a hand. You can take it down on the turn if a two to a flush or straight comes and you're that way inclined. Very unlucky with the turn in your hand, but you can slow it down if the one danger card appears and see if you've odds for the house.
With more callers preflop and a more action orientated board, I'd bet huge or reraise a bet all in.

CoD

I understand HJ's view and usually agree, its just here, I would like someone to catch 2 pair on turn or so. Build the pot there. If you bet this flop half pot + you'll prob make that gutshot fold and any 2nd pairs.
Plus then you couldnt post it here!

Hectorjelly

The Troll wrote:

What if its folded around and you make nothing?

To incrediblebulk it was just under 900$.

You play to maximise your expectation. Sometimes that means winning a small pot.