TRUE LIES - Misconceptions About Islam

Qadri

TRUE LIES - Misconceptions About Islam

There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Yep…that means 1 in every 5 person in the world is a Muslim. Did you know that??
And guess what…. Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world (1) but why is it that Islam is the most misunderstood faith today?

Now, when you mention the word Islam today… the first thing that pops in his head is that '…oh yeah…that's that "terror-religion" … those dodgy looking blokes with long beards hijacking planes, blowing up buildings and chopping peoples hands….'.

Before you know it the word 'terrorist' and 'backward' will come to mind, women chained to the kitchen sink, guys with many wives and 'they hate Jesus' will be their idea of Islam.

Well, you know what mate…if this is your image of Islam then I suggest you switch off the media bashing from the telly and start to think for yourself what Islam is and what it offers the world today.

That's exactly what the likes of Muhammad Ali, Malcolm X, Chris Eubank, Cat Stevens, Jemima Khan did…and they had no choice but to be amazed with the teaching and lifestyle of Islam.

We will will hopefully get rid of most of the misconceptions that the western world has about Islam.

1: "Muslims are violent, terrorists and extremists. "

This is the biggest misconception about Islam, no doubt resulting from the constant stereotyping and bashing the media gives Islam. When a gunman attacks a mosque in the name of Judaism, a Catholic IRA guerrilla sets off a bomb in London, or Serbian Orthodox militiamen rape and kills innocent Muslim civilians; these acts are not used to stereotype an entire faith. Oh no! Never are these acts attributed to the religion of the perpetrators. But you know what… how many times have we heard the words 'Islamic, Muslim fundamentalist.' linked with violence- especially after the recent terrorist attacks carried out in the world trading centre and the Pentagon?

Don't forget: there is no concept of "Fundamentalism" in Islam. The western media has coined this term to brand those Muslims who wish to return to the basic fundamental principles of Islam and mould their lives accordingly. Islam is a faith of moderation and a practicing God fearing Muslim can neither be a fanatic nor an extremist you na'a mean man? Terrorism has absolutely nothing to do with Islam whatsoever! In th eyes of Islam it is a massive crime and the attackers need to be bought to justice.

Islam is a faith of peace and submission and stresses on the sanctity of human life. A verse in the Quran says, [Chapter 5, verse 32], that "anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another person it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind."

The word Jihad represents a concept, which is much misunderstood in the West…and no…it's not Holy War! The first thing that people think of is '…that Osama bin Ladin geezer..' and images of suicide bombing. Actually, the word "Jihad" means struggle, or to be specific, striving in the cause of God. Any struggle done in day-to-day life to please God can be considered Jihad. (You surprised..?)

One of the highest levels of Jihad is to stand up to a tyrant and speak a word of truth. Control of the self from wrong doings is also a great Jihad. One of the forms of Jihad is to take up arms in defence of Islam or a Muslim country when Islam is attacked. This kind of Jihad has to be declared by the religious leadership or by a Muslim head of state that is following the Quran and Sunnah (example of the Prophet Muhammad-pbuh). Jihad on the battlefield is the use of force in order to implement peace as a last resort….this making any sense?

Even in war, according to Islam a Muslim is still not allowed to harm or kill traders, merchants, and contractors if they do not take part in actual fighting. It is totally against Islam for a Muslim to kill non-combatants, women, minors, servants, the blind, monks, elderly, those physically incapable of fighting and the insane or delirious. Combatants are only those who are physically capable of fighting. Even prisoners of war are given protection and cannot be harmed. Now you tell me, are these the rules, laws and etiquettes of terrorists and fanatics?

Nowhere does Islam allow the killing of innocent people!

The Quran says: "Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Quran 2:190) "If they seek peace, then you seek peace. And trust in God for He is the One that hears and knows all things." (Quran 8:61)

The Christian scholar Ira G. Zepp, Jr. states in his book 'A Muslim Primer' (1992, Wakefield Editions, US) pp.133-135: '… It is crucial to note here that what is condoned is defensive warfare; Islam cannot justify aggressive war. Muhammad and the Traditions are also against killing non-combatants, torturing of prisoners, the destruction of crops, animals and homes.'

It must be kept in mind that the western countries defend the use of war as necessary to implement peace, but when this necessity is applied by Muslims then its evil….of course! Christianity allows the use of war in order to spread Christianity, which is given the name of "Holy Crusade".

So remember , there is nothing wrong with Jihad and we must be wary of the negative propaganda by the media. But don't forget the terrorist attacks in America if they were carried out by Muslims, has got nothing to do with Jihad. It is terrorism and totally against the teachings of Islam. Even though there may be hatred against America due to its biased foreign policy against the Muslims- nothing can justify these terrorist attacks.

You see Islam means peace and a Muslim is one who is peaceful and brings peace….so how can it have anything to do with violence and terrorism?

2: Islam oppresses women.

The image of the typical Muslim woman wearing the veil and forced to stay home and forbidden to drive is all too common in most people's thoughts. Although some Muslim countries may have laws that oppress women, this should not be seen as coming from Islam.

Is it a bird, is it a plane…no, it's superwoman! Oh yes…Islam elevated the status of women 1,400 years ago by declaring them equal to men, giving them the right to work, right to education to the highest level, right to vote, right to take public office, right to join the army, right to divorce (God forbid), right to inheritance, right to marry who she wishes (yippie!!) and so on and so forth, the list is endless….you got all day?

The idea that women are second class citizens and worth half a man is a myth. Never forget that women are equal to men in all acts of piety (Quran 33:32).

The Qur'an also abolished the practice whereby inheritance went to only the oldest male heir. Instead, a woman can inherit from her father, her husband, and her childless brother (see Qur'an 4:7, 32, 176).

Islam gave women political rights including voting and taking part in political activities such as sitting in parliament and becoming MP's. Lets not forget that women only got the right to vote in Britain in the beginning of the 20th century!

In Islam when a woman gets married she does not surrender her maiden name, but keeps her distinct identity. Some Muslim women have adopted the surnames of their husbands, but this is due to cultural influence, not Islam. In a Muslim marriage the groom gives a dowry to the bride, not to her father. This becomes her private property to keep or spend, and is not subject to the dictates of her male relatives. Any money she earns or receives is similarly her very own.

Under Islamic Law a woman cannot be married off without her consent. She has final approval on a marriage partner and she can refuse and cancel a marriage arranged without her consent. So a forced marriage has absolutely nothing to do with Islam She also has the right to initiate a separation from marriage if her rights under marriage are not being granted. Widows have the right to remarry, and they are in fact encouraged to do so.

The Qur'an places on men the responsibility of protecting and maintaining their female relatives. This relieves women of the need to earn their own living….but can work if they want to. It also means that a man must provide for his wife even if she has money of her own. She is not obligated to spend her money in the maintenance of her family. Also, a woman cannot be forced or does not have to cook, clean, wash-up etc for her family. This is a collective responsibility upon the husband and wife.

The example of our noble Prophet (Peace be upon him) is that although he was such a great leader, he assisted in the house cleaning and mended his own clothes.

The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife, and I am the kindest to my wife."


To be continued...

Qadri

Islam emphasizes modesty. No person should be seen as a sex object. There are certain guidelines both for men and women that their dress should neither be too thin nor too tight to reveal body forms. For men, they must at least cover the area from the knee to navel and for women; their dress should cover all areas except the hands and face. The veil is not essential but if a woman chooses do so it is up to her. Nowadays, topless and mini skirts are OK but covering yourself is 'oppression'…. Who you trying to fool?

Not Islam, but some Muslim men, do oppress women today. This is because of their cultural habits or their ignorance about Islam. Female Genital Mutilations has nothing to do with Islam. It is a pre Islamic African Custom, practiced by non-Muslims including Coptic Christians as well.

3: Muslims worship a different God. Muslims worship Muhammad.

Muslims believe in one God (Allah). 'Who's that then?' Allah is the Arabic word which is the name of the true God. It is exactly the same word, which the Jews, in Hebrew, use for God (eloh), the word that Jesus Christ used in Aramaic when he prayed to God. God has an identical name in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; Allah is the same God worshiped by Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Muslims do not worship Muhammad (pbuh) or any other prophet. Muslims believe in all prophets including Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Moses and Jesus. Muslims believe that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the last of the prophets and God alone is to be worshiped, not any human being. God is one. He has no partners or children. There is none like Him.

All the prophets came down preaching about the same God: Allah Almighty.

4: "Islam was spread by the sword. It is intolerant of other faiths. "

Many social studies textbooks for students show the image of an Arab horseman carrying a sword in one hand and the Quran in the other conquering and forcibly converting. This is as correct as saying Lord Archer is an honest chap!

Islam has always given respect and freedom of religion to all faiths. Freedom of religion is laid down in the Quran itself: "There is no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam). The right direction is distinctly clear from error." (Qur'an 2:256)

Islam did not spread by the sword because in many places where there are Muslims now, in the Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, there are no records of any Muslim armies going there. The "Sword of Islam" could not convert all the non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled for 700 years, they are still a minority. In the U.S.A., Islam is the fastest growing religion and has over 6 million followers without any sword around.

It is an important part of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world.

Islamic law also allows non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves. The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether the person is Muslim or not.

Huston Smith discusses in his book entitled The World's Religions, how the prophet Muhammad, on whom be peace, granted freedom of religion to the Jews and Christians under Muslim rule.

The prophet had a document drawn up in which he stipulated that Jews and Christians shall be "protected from all insults and harm; they shall have an equal right with our own people to our assistance and good offices," and furthermore, that they shall "practice their religion as freely as the Muslims" (Quoted in The World's Religions by Huston Smith, Harper Collins, 1991, p. 256). Smith points out that Muslims regard that document as "the first charter of freedom of conscience in human history and the authoritative model for those of every subsequent Muslim state" (p. 256).

5: "All Muslims are Arabs."

Islam has got nothing to do with race or any country or nationality. Islam is for all nations and for all times. The Muslim population of the world is around 1.2 billion. One out of five people in the world are a Muslim. They are a vast range of races, nationalities, and cultures from around the globe--from the Philippines to Nigeria--they are united by their common Islamic faith.
Only about 18% live in the Arab world and the largest Muslim community is in Indonesia. 30% of Muslims live in the Indian subcontinent, 20% in Sub-Saharan Africa, 17% in Southeast Asia, 18% in the Arab world, and 10% in the Soviet Union and China. Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan make up 10% of the non-Arab Middle East. Although there are Muslim minorities in almost every area, including Latin America and Australia, they are most numerous in Russia and its newly independent states, India and central Africa. There are about 6 million Muslims in the United States and over 2 million in Britain.

Also don't forget that the "Nation of Islam" has got nothing to do with Islam. It is a racist organisation, which believes God is black, all white people are devils and Elijah Muhammad is the last messenger of God. Clearly its followers are NOT Muslims. Its leader now is Louis Farrakhan who has been allowed to come to the UK recently. So don't be fooled by these people!

6: "All Muslim men marry four wives."

John Esposito, a western author on Islam, says: '…Although it is found in many religious and cultural traditions, polygamy is most often identified with Islam in the minds of Westerners. In fact, the Qur'an and Islamic Law sought to control and regulate the number of spouses rather than give free license. (John Esposito, Islam: The Straight Path, Oxford University, 1988, p. 97).

Esposito then goes on to explain that in a society which allowed men an unlimited number of wives, Islam limited the number of wives to four. Then he continued to say: '..The Qur'an allows a man to marry up to four wives, provided he can support and treat them all equally. Muslims regard this Quranic command as strengthening the status of women and the family for it sought to ensure the welfare of single women and widows in a society whose male population was diminished by warfare, and to curb unrestricted polygamy.'

Karen Armstrong explains in her book entitled Muhammad: A Western Attempt to Understand Islam. (Victor Gollancz Ltd., 1991, p. 191) She says: …'We have to see the ruling about polygamy in context. In seventh-century Arabia, when a man could have as many wives as he chose, to prescribe only four was a limitation, not a license to new oppression.

Now you're probably thinking that most Muslim men would have four wives. However, as Huston Smith points out, "multiple wives are seldom found in Islam today" (The World's Religions, p. 252). Ira Zepp, Jr. says, "less than 2% of Muslim marriages are polygamous" (A Muslim Primer, p. 180).

There is no doubt that the second wife legally married and treated kindly is better off than a mistress without any legal rights or social respect. The west should think twice before it criticises Islam when many marriages in the west break up due to the male natural desire of seeking another partner. Islam has solved this problem by allowing more than one wife.

7: "Muslims are backward people."

This claim can only be made if you've had too many pints because anyone who has studied Islam and the Muslims know this a load of cobblers. Islam made great advances in medicine, mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, architecture, art, literature, and history.

Many crucial systems such as algebra, the Arabic numerals, and also the concept of the zero (vital to the advancement of mathematics), were transmitted to medieval Europe from Islam.

Sophisticated instruments, which were to make possible the European voyages of discovery, were developed, including the astrolabe, the quadrant and good navigational maps. I don't know about you but if this is backward then I'm the Pope!

8: "Muslims don't believe in Jesus or any other Prophet. "

A Muslim cannot be a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus. Muslims respect and revere Jesus, upon him be peace, and await his Second Coming. His true name is "Isa" which was changed by Christians to Jesus.

Muslims consider him as one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind- and not God or the Son of God.

The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Quran tells us that Jesus was born of a miraculous birth without a father. "Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then He said unto him: Be and he is" (Quran 3.59). He was given many miracles as a prophet.

These include speaking soon after his birth in defence of his mother's piety. God's other gifts to him included healing the blind and the sick, reviving the dead, making a bird out of clay and most importantly, the message he was carrying. These miracles were given to him by God to establish him as a prophet. According to the Quran, he was not crucified but was raised into Heaven. (Quran, Chapter Maryam).

Qadri

A final word:

Remember: Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world and it is the answer to the problems facing the world today. Study Islam and speak to sincere Muslims.

Don't judge Islam on what you see on the telly or what some Muslims and Muslim 'so-called' leaders or groups are doing. After you have studied the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad then believe me… you will be so impressed that the only natural thing for you to do is…. to embrace Islam.

References

1. (The Junior Encyclopaedia of Canada, Hurtig Publishers, Canada, 1990, Vol. 2, p. 396).For further information see: A Brief Illustrated Guide to understanding Islam Women in Islam Why women are turning to Islam (video) Questions this modern age asks about Islam Contact Minhaj Cultural Centre to discuss the issues mentioned.[/I

RE*AC*TOR

Qadri wrote:

A final word:

Remember: Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world and it is the answer to the problems facing the world today. Study Islam and speak to sincere Muslims.

Don't judge Islam on what you see on the telly or what some Muslims and Muslim 'so-called' leaders or groups are doing. After you have studied the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad then believe me… you will be so impressed that the only natural thing for you to do is…. to embrace Islam.

References

1. (The Junior Encyclopaedia of Canada, Hurtig Publishers, Canada, 1990, Vol. 2, p. 396).For further information see: A Brief Illustrated Guide to understanding Islam Women in Islam Why women are turning to Islam (video) Questions this modern age asks about Islam Contact Minhaj Cultural Centre to discuss the issues mentioned.[/I

Great post! As with many religions, the difficulty lies with certain people doing acts in the name of the religion that really contradict the spirit of the religion (guerrila groups, governments etc.) The Crusades were a prime example (there are many many others). Another difficulty lies with popular support that other "believers" have for these elements. To a certain extent it is not surprising, when people feal oppressed and under attack. We had it, and still have it in Ireland, where there still remains a level of popular support for the provisional IRA.

Anyway, thanks - very enlightening, although I can't say I will be embracing Islam any time soon (or any other religion) - it is certainly interesting.

OfflerCrocGod

Qadri wrote:

Remember: Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world and it is the answer to the problems facing the world today. Study Islam and speak to sincere Muslims.

What problems? Capitalism? Democracy? Human Rights? Freedom of Speech? Freedom? Equality? Education? Individualism? Government based on Human Rights and Law & Order? Progress? Safety? Wealth? If it's the answer to all those problems then judging by the state of some Muslim countries.........I must agree

Qadri wrote:

Don't judge Islam on what you see on the telly or what some Muslims and Muslim 'so-called' leaders or groups are doing. After you have studied the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad then believe me… you will be so impressed that the only natural thing for you to do is…. to embrace Islam.

Actually the more I learn about the religion the more I find it ridiculous and laughable (this applies to all religions).

Suff

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

I must agreeActually the more I learn about the religion the more I find it ridiculous and laughable (this applies to all religions).

Then you need to learn more!

OfflerCrocGod

Suff wrote:

Then you need to learn more!

I've learnt enough to see that one religion is simply a copy of another religion with slightly different characters and ceremonies.

Qadri

OfflerCrocGod said:

What problems? Capitalism? Democracy? Human Rights? Freedom of Speech? Freedom? Equality? Education? Individualism? Government based on Human Rights and Law & Order? Progress? Safety? Wealth? If it's the answer to all those problems then judging by the state of some Muslim countries.........I must agree

Answer: Unfortunately since the last 100 years there is no such country or nation who truly represent Islam. If you look at Saudi Arabia than they have the Islamic punishments (which is why criminality ratio there is 2%), but they do not have equal rights for the woman. Woman are not allowed to drive there.

But if you look at the History of the Muslims you will see that untill the Muslims followed the complete message of Islam, Muslims were the most civilized nation for 8 centuries. From the Quran and Hadith mankind finds all answers to the big problems and issues of today .

I will quickly give some examples from Islam :

Issue : Democracy & Freedom of Speech
Solution from Islam: And do share your views and take decision after consulting everyone involved. And everyone has the same rights...

Once the second Caliph Umar (May Allah be pleased with him) wanted to set a maximum amount for dowry. An ordinary woman stood up from the Parlement of Madinah (which is a proof that at that time woman were actively involved in politics) and she challenged this Bill in the parlement. She gave the argument that when Allah (swt) has not fixed a maximum amount and Has left it to the bride, than who is Umar (May Allah be pleased with him) to fix a maximum amount. The caliph had to change his mind

Issue: Human rights
Solution from Islam: All mankind are equal in sight of Allah and have same rights. In the sight of Allah the most respected is the one who is most Godfearing. (Surah Nisaa)

During time of the beloved Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) human were traded and there were many slaves in the city of Makkah.
Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) said: Whoever frees one slave, He will get freedom from the fire of Hell. This was encouraging the Muslims to give freedom to slaves and this sign was the start of the end of slavery in Islam.

Also interesting is that a slave called Bilal (May Allah be pleased with him) who was from Africa and brough to Makkah by his "boss", was impressed by Islamic Teaching that it gave equal rights to everyone and he accepted Islam.
He used to pray in the same row with his boss and later he was freed by a companion of the Prophet (Peace be upon Him). Bilal (May Allah be pleased with Him) was always addressed as "Sayyednuaa" (means our respected man) by the companions of the Prophet (Peace be upon Him).
And Bilal (Maay Allah be pleased with him) was the first man to say the aazaan (call to prayer) and he was standing on the roof of the Kabah (in Makkah , the building build by Prophet Abraham (Peace be upon Him). Now you must understand that this was a great privellege to stand at the Kabah. The ppl could never imagine that a slave would be given this great chance.


I am at work at the moment otherwise I would have replied with references.
I will provide references from Quran, Hadith and History books if asked.

Qadri

OfflerCrocGod said:

I've learnt enough to see that one religion is simply a copy of another religion with slightly different characters and ceremonies.

We Muslims believe that the founders of Christianity and Judaism were Prophets of Allah (swt) and had all the same messages and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was sent to mankind with the same message but only with the last edition. This is why there are many similarities in these 3 religion .

bonkey

Firstly, I'd like to congratulate Qadi on an excellent set of posts. Fantastic, thought-provoking reading which serves as a much-needed counter-point to a lot of what one sees today whenever Islam is discussed.
However....it would be no fun if we all just nodded sagely and said "that guy's spot on there", so I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment...

Unfortunately since the last 100 years there is no such country or nation who truly represent Islam

I can't believe you are using this as an argument, and yet its a central thread to the entire piece you posted above. To clarify: You talk about Islam being the fastest-growing religion, with 1/5 of the world's population. You use this as a reason to support the notion that it clearly has gotten something right. But, of these 1 billion people, how many are living in the countries that truly represent Islam? None, because such a country doesn't exist.

There are countries that claim to be Islamic, but - as with Arabia - you point out why they're not really such. But they still apparently count as part of the 1 billion who indicate that Islam is something other than the Islam they practice.

If you want to understand why people feel threatened by Islam, its for exactly that reason. The reality of how so-called Islamic nations have been implemented is grossly at odds with the theoretical ideal that could come from Islam but which hasn't existed in the last century by your own admission. So if Islam was to take a strong root in Ireland, which form should we expect to see? The ideal that hasn't managed to take root anywhere in the last 100 years, or the not-really-true-Islam implementations that you readily admit are flawed and that are all we've seen in the past 100 years?

And taking a slightly different track....you keep claiming that these various issues - the oppression of women being a central one - are not Islam and you reference the Qu'ran as evidence. Are you suggesting that the people who engage in such practices do not also quote the Qu'ran as justification for their practices? Are the religious leaders (at the very least) in these countries aware that what their people are doing is in contradiction to their religion? Are they speaking out against it? In my experience, they generally justify their actions as benig in accordance with their religion, and can offer as well-researched a justification from teh Qu'ran as you have. Are they lying to me? Or is it possible that there is more than one interpretation which one can take from teh Qu'ran?

If they're lying, then why do you still count them in the 1 billion Muslims around the world? If they're not lying, but simply taking a different interpretation from the Qu'ran, how can you tell me that they aren't really following the teachings of Islam?

One final note - you defended the "four wives" argument on the basis that it needs to be taken in the context of the practices at that point in time. Surely such an argument suggests that the idea is at least partially a "solution of its day" then a "solution for all time". This then begs the question - if I need to put it in the context of its day to understand it, is this not an admission that it is not properly applicable to the context of today? If Islam insists that the practice is still correct for today's world, then it must make sense in today's world, not in one from a few centuries ago.

jc

Suff

Qadri wrote:

OfflerCrocGod said:

I've learnt enough to see that one religion is simply a copy of another religion with slightly different characters and ceremonies.

We Muslims believe that the founders of Christianity and Judaism were Prophets of Allah (swt) and had all the same messages and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was sent to mankind with the same message but only with the last edition. This is why there are many similarities in these 3 religion .

Correct but also the messages before him were faced by alternations.

Wibbs

As others have said, fair play on the post Qadri. You will doubtless bring much to the debate with your obvious knowledge of the subject.

Qadri wrote:

You see Islam means peace and a Muslim is one who is peaceful and brings peace….so how can it have anything to do with violence and terrorism?

Well correct me if I'm wrong here, but I understood that Islam means submission, not peace. Slight difference there.

Women and Islam

Is it a bird, is it a plane…no, it's superwoman! Oh yes…Islam elevated the status of women 1,400 years ago by declaring them equal to men,

Only in faith, in nearly every other practical way they are not.

The idea that women are second class citizens and worth half a man is a myth. Never forget that women are equal to men in all acts of piety (Quran 33:32).

In piety and religion maybe, but elsewhere women are hardly equal.

Men are a "degree" above women http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.228

Women are considered "tilth" which is dangerously close to chattel. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.223

Even as witnesses women are considered half as reliable as men http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.282

They only get half of any inheritance http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.011

Nowadays, topless and mini skirts are OK but covering yourself is 'oppression'…. Who you trying to fool?

No it should be a choice. That's the difference. Is there such a choice in Islam? If it is the fault of men's lust that women need to be covered in this way, surely the onus is on the men to restrict their lust not the responsibility of women to not turn them on?. By that logic all women are just sex objects in the male mind. By that logic, men are seemingly incapable of regarding them as anything else if they're uncovered(even if they're in jeans and a blouse). Plus why is there such a gulf in your mind between covering yourself completely and topless and mini skirts? Is there not a middle ground to be found?

4: "Islam was spread by the sword. It is intolerant of other faiths.

Well my other posts on this subject speak of my opinion on this. I won't bore the readers with repetition, but please feel free to check them out.

It is an important part of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world.

Taking the example of Saudi Arabia, where even the display of a crucifix is illegal would seem to disagree with you and that's hardly the only example.

7: "Muslims are backward people."

This claim can only be made if you've had too many pints because anyone who has studied Islam and the Muslims know this a load of cobblers. Islam made great advances in medicine, mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, architecture, art, literature, and history.

The operative word here is made. There is no doubt that the Islamic world made great advances in many areas in the past. At a time when many things(Christianity included) made Europe a backwater, Islam was indeed a beacon. One would be an idiot to deny this.

However, since the renaissance and the especially the enlightenment, when religion started to play less an oppressive part in peoples lives science in the west has jumped ahead in leaps and bounds. Comparing modern Muslim nations to the secular west of today in terms of innovation shows the gulf.

Muslims respect and revere Jesus, upon him be peace, and await his Second Coming. His true name is "Isa" which was changed by Christians to Jesus.

Well others opinion would suggest that his real name was Yeshua (as close as one can spell it in Hebrew/aramaic).http://www.thenazareneway.com/yeshua_jesus_real_name.htm Then again that's just me being pedantic . I'm sure the bods over in the Christianity forum would shed more light on this.

Issue: Human rights
Solution from Islam: All mankind are equal in sight of Allah and have same rights. In the sight of Allah the most respected is the one who is most Godfearing. (Surah Nisaa)

Well many would contend that all Muslims are equal in the sight Allah. Others, especially Pagans have far fewer rights.

During time of the beloved Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) human were traded and there were many slaves in the city of Makkah.
Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) said: Whoever frees one slave, He will get freedom from the fire of Hell. This was encouraging the Muslims to give freedom to slaves and this sign was the start of the end of slavery in Islam.

There are enough passages about slaves and those who ones right hand possesses that would suggest that slavery was considered a normal and acceptable part of life. If you look at this passage alone you will find that freeing a slave(believing one only) is akin to a fine on the perpetrator of the manslaughter. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.092 One can only give away what one owns.

From the beginning of Islam the taking of war captives and their women was considered a normal state of affairs. If not, how come so many passages in the Quran refer to those whose right hand possesses. Where did these "possessions" come from.

As I pointed out elsewhere, slavery in Europe survived for far too long, yet Europe was among the first to ban it. Most of the slave trade in Europe was supplied by Muslim traders.

Don't judge Islam on what you see on the telly or what some Muslims and Muslim 'so-called' leaders or groups are doing. After you have studied the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad then believe me… you will be so impressed that the only natural thing for you to do is…. to embrace Islam.

Well I have read up quite a bit on Islam, the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet and TBH while much was impressive, far too much was troubling, especially the more martial stuff. Too many things seem open to abuse and intolerance. The concept of "turn the other cheek"(present in Christianity, Buddhism etc) seems lacking in the extreme.

Qadri

Well correct me if I'm wrong here, but I understood that Islam means submission, not peace. Slight difference there

The word Islam comes from the root word "Salama", this means literally Peace.
An Hadeeth of the Prophet (SAW) says: The Muslims is he from whose hands and tongue other people get peace.

Also Islam means submission. The word Islam has two meanings.

Only in faith, in nearly every other practical way they are not.

Please give arguments so I can give you a proper reply on this.

The idea that women are second class citizens and worth half a man is a myth. Never forget that women are equal to men in all acts of piety (Quran 33:32).

We need to open a new topic on this to enlighten this subject and clear misunderstanings. I will simply try to give some answers.

They only get half of any inheritance http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.011

The Qur’anic verses that contain guidance regarding inheritance are:

* Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 180 * Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 240 * Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 7-9 * Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 19 * Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 33 and * Surah Maidah, chapter 5 verse 106-108

There are three verses in the Qur’an that broadly describe the share of close relatives i.e. Surah Nisah chapter 4 verses 11, 12 and 176.

The translation of these verses are as follows:

"Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females, if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; If only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; If no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. In what your wives leave, your share is half. If they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eight; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to anyone). Thus it is ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing Most Forbearing" [Al-Qur’an 4:11-12]

"They ask thee for a legal decision. Say: Allah directs (them) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance. If (such a deceased was) a woman who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance. If there are two sisters, they shall have two thirds of the inheritance (between them). If there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah (swt) makes clear to you (His knowledge of all things). [Al-Qur’an 4:176]
In most of the cases, a woman inherits half of what her male counterpart inherits. However, this is not always the case. In case the deceased has left no ascendant or descendent but has left the uterine brother and sister, each of the two inherit one sixth. If the deceased has left children, both the parents that is mother and father get an equal share and inherit one sixth each.

In certain cases, a woman can also inherit a share that is double that of the male. If the deceased is a woman who has left no children, brothers or sisters and is survived only by her husband, mother and father, the husband inherits half the property while the mother inherits one third and the father the remaining one sixth. In this particular case, the mother inherits a share that is double that of the father.

It is true that as a general rule, in most cases, the female inherits a share that is half that of the male. For instance in the following cases:

1. daughter inherits half of what the son inherits, 2. wife inherits 1/8th and husband 1/4th if the deceased has no children. 3. Wife inherits 1/4th and husband 1/2 if the deceased has children 4. If the deceased has no ascendant or descendent, the sister inherits a share that is half that of the brother.

In Islam a woman has no financial obligation and the economical responsibility lies on the shoulders of the man. Before a woman is married it is the duty of the father or brother to look after the lodging, boarding, clothing and other financial requirements of the woman. After she is married it is the duty of the husband or the son. Islam holds the man financially responsible for fulfilling the needs of his family.

In order to do be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance. For example, if a man dies leaving about Euros One Hundred and Fifty Thousand, for the children (i.e one son and one daughter) the son inherits One Hundred Thousand euro's and the daughter only Fifty Thousand rupees. Out of the one hundred thousand which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about eighty thousand and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about twenty thousand, left for himself. On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits fifty thousand is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself.

Would you prefer inheriting one hundred thousand euro's and spending eighty thousand from it, or inheriting fifty thousand rupees and having the entire amount to yourself?

Qadri

Even as witnesses women are considered half as reliable as men http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.282

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases.

There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions.

It says: "Oh! ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her." [Al-Qur’an 2:282]

This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors. Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families.

Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’. Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.

However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness.

In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qur’an which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman. While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses.

In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says: "Oh you who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests." [Al-Qur’an 5:106] two just persons of your own (brotherhood) or other from outside if you are journeying through the earth and the chance of death befalls you." [Al-Qur’an 65:2] Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq. "Four witnesses are required in case of charge against chaste women, [Al-Qur’an 24:4]

There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness: "And those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own - their solitary evidence can be received." [Al-Qur’an 24:6]

Hazrat Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan.

It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women. Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.

The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.

Qadri

No it should be a choice. That's the difference. Is there such a choice in Islam? If it is the fault of men's lust that women need to be covered in this way, surely the onus is on the men to restrict their lust not the responsibility of women to not turn them on?. By that logic all women are just sex objects in the male mind. By that logic, men are seemingly incapable of regarding them as anything else if they're uncovered(even if they're in jeans and a blouse). Plus why is there such a gulf in your mind between covering yourself completely and topless and mini skirts? Is there not a middle ground to be found?

For those who believe in Allah, its their own choice of covering themself.
By covering their beauty, they are evaluated for their intelligence and skills instead of looks and sexuality. Many women who cover are filled with dignity and self-esteem and are happy to be identified as a muslim woman. By wearing hijab the woman is concealing her sexuality but allowing her femininity to shine.

The Holy Quran first mentions hijab (cover) for the men and then for the women. Hijab for the men is mentioned in the following verse:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." [Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

Hijab for women Hijab for women is mentioned in the following verse:
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons...." [Al-Qur’an 24:31]

The extent of hijab for a woman is that her complete body should be covered. The only part that can be seen, are the face and the hands up to the wrists. If they wish to cover, they can even cover these parts of the body. However some Islamic scholars insist that even the face should be covered.

Hijab prevents molestation The reason why Allah has prescribed Hijab for the women is given in the Qur’an in the folowing verse of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women,that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, most Merciful." [Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women this would prevent them from being molested.


Example of twin sisters Suppose two sisters who are twins and who are equally beautiful, walk down a street. One of them is wearing the Islamic Hijab i.e. the complete body is covered except for the face and the hands up to the wrists, and the other twin is wearing a mini skirt or shorts. Around the corner there is a hooligan who is waiting for an opportunity to tease a girl. Who will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the mini skirt or shorts? Dresses that expose more than they conceal, are an indirect temptation to the opposite sex for teasing, molestation and rape. The Qur’an rightly says that the hijab prevents women from being molested.

Qadri

It is an important part of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world.

Taking the example of Saudi Arabia, where even the display of a crucifix is illegal would seem to disagree with you and that's hardly the only example.

I mentioned earlier no country on earth of goverment is representing the true and complete picture of Islam. This is very sad...

Qadri

The operative word here is made. There is no doubt that the Islamic world made great advances in many areas in the past. At a time when many things(Christianity included) made Europe a backwater, Islam was indeed a beacon. One would be an idiot to deny this.

However, since the renaissance and the especially the enlightenment, when religion started to play less an oppressive part in peoples lives science in the west has jumped ahead in leaps and bounds. Comparing modern Muslim nations to the secular west of today in terms of innovation shows the gulf.

In those almost 1000 years of great civilization the Muslims were still practicing Muslims. Have you not seen the centuries old mosques in Spain , Morocco, Baghdad, Kazakstan and China ?

The only reason why Muslims are now far behind is that they have stopped getting knowledge. The first verce revealed to Prophet (PBUH) said : Read! It gave the message to gain knowledge.
Untill the Muslims followed this advice they were a leading nation. But since the Muslims have left this they are going through a difficult time.
Also the British conspiricies have played a big role in changing the situation...

Qadri

Dear Wibbs and others,

I will not be able to repond untill tomorrow ...Hopefully everyone will read my posts and take the time to read them through...

Any questions I will be happy to answer. After all this is the only way to learn from each other and create unity and understanding.

Peace be upon you all !

Wibbs

Qadri wrote:

Dear Wibbs and others,.

Any questions I will be happy to answer. After all this is the only way to learn from each other and create unity and understanding.

Sounds like a good plan as questions I have. A little bit of understanding on both sides goes a long way.

Peace be upon you all !

Tnx, it makes a pleasant change from the usual "sod off you git" I'm used to...:D

bonkey

In piety and religion maybe, but elsewhere women are hardly equal.

A good example is the differing standards in how each gender should cover themselves, surely.

While there are clearly anatomical differences that must be allowed for, one must question where the equality is when it is considered inappropriate for a woman to display (for example) her bare arms, but perfectly acceptable for a man to do likewise.

If a man would be distracted by the beauty of a woman's arms, then surely a woman could likewise be distracted by a man's? Indeed, what about when no men are present - should women hide their arms from each other lest they distract each other? If so, why should men not do likewise when in the presence of nothing but other men?

By covering their beauty, they are evaluated for their intelligence and skills instead of looks and sexuality.

Is this argument not inherently sexist, and this demonstrating further inequality?

Should men not cover their beauty as well, so that they too can be evaluated for their intelligence and skills instead of for their looks and sexuality?

Why are a woman's ankles and shins (again, picking an area of discrepancy) somehow sexual, but a man's not?

Indeed, why would one woman find another woman's ankles sexual in nature, but not a man's? After all, two women alone must still keep their ankles covered from one another, right? But a man need not hide his ankles from a woman.

Perhaps this evaluation (which we want to intelligence/skill bsaed and not looks/sexuality) one which is only carried out by men, which would explain the reasoning you offer, but utterly undermine the suggestion of equality.

I should point out that Islam is not alone in this regard. Christianity, for example, is by no means devoid of its own inequalities of treatment. So I should clear up that I'm not trying to say that I see Islam as being worse than / inferior to other religions because of what I see as inequality, but rather that I simply cannot understand the claims that this inequality doesn't exist.

jc

Suff

bonkey wrote:

what about when no men are present - should women hide their arms from each other lest they distract each other? If so, why should men not do likewise when in the presence of nothing but other men?

no, they can show what is respectable to each other, face, hair, hands whatever,

bonkey wrote:

Is this argument not inherently sexist, and this demonstrating further inequality?

men are not equal to women in physical terms, we are not the same , this is fact, this does have effect on our needs and rights in life.
women have a number of exceptions in Islam like when it comes to prayer and fasting while in their period.

bonkey wrote:

should men not cover their beauty as well, so that they too can be evaluated for their intelligence and skills instead of for their looks and sexuality?

Yes, a Man should cover the area from this belly button to his knees. regardless of other people around him, be man or woman.

bonkey wrote:

Why are a woman's ankles and shins (again, picking an area of discrepancy) somehow sexual, but a man's not?

come on,... lots of men see women's feet as atractive.

bonkey wrote:

Indeed, why would one woman find another woman's ankles sexual in nature, but not a man's? After all, two women alone must still keep their ankles covered from one another, right? But a man need not hide his ankles from a woman.

I don't think men's feet are attractive to women! do ya?


Perhaps this evaluation (which we want to intelligence/skill bsaed and not looks/sexuality) one which is only carried out by men, which would explain the reasoning you offer, but utterly undermine the suggestion of equality.

I should point out that Islam is not alone in this regard. Christianity, for example, is by no means devoid of its own inequalities of treatment. So I should clear up that I'm not trying to say that I see Islam as being worse than / inferior to other religions because of what I see as inequality, but rather that I simply cannot understand the claims that this inequality doesn't exist.
[/QUOTE]

As i said, women are not equal to men in their physical, we are different, but both have rights, education is compulsary to both, work is generally known to be a man's job ( before you attack ...in the west also this was true) but now things have changed and women are working along side men.
I am from Damascus, Syria (non-religious goverment) women have worked there for years, and I mean decads, my grandmother was the head teacher of a girls school in the 50's.
come to think of it all my teachers were women!

but they have different rights to the working man!
...yes they do
like maternity leave, why can't a man take some days off on maternity leave??
he's part of the whole baby making process wasn't he!?

ok enough jokes...

Women play a BIG part in Islam, they are the foundation of each generation.
Islam did liberate women from the dark ages where they had no rights at all.

if you think that women would have more rights by showing their body off how is that considered to be a civilised thing?
would they go to work wearing bikinis just to show that they are liberated?
don't judge it by looks it's the values it holds , work and education.

bonkey

Suff wrote:

come on,... lots of men see women's feet as atractive.
...
I don't think men's feet are attractive to women! do ya?

I don't see how anyone's feet are attractive to anyone, but apparently they are. I'm also not informed enough to know if its a gender-specific thing, but its not that important because I only chose feet/shins as one area where there is a disinction. I could have said arms (which I'm fairly certain isn't gender-specifc in attractiveness.

As i said, women are not equal to men in their physical, we are different,

I don't question that, but its just that the distinction made in how each gender should cover themselves appears to be more unequal than the significant underlying physical differences.

but both have rights,

Again, no question. I'm not even suggesting that its necessarily wrong to have differences in rights. Your example of maternity leave is an excellent one there (and you may be interested to know that paternity leave is not as crazy a notion as you may have thought, but lets not get sidetracked)

Women play a BIG part in Islam, they are the foundation of each generation.

Again, no argument from me. I'm more questioning whether or not they have relative equality. To be honest, I'm as much asking questions to learn what others have to say on the issue - I did say at the start I was playing Devil's Advocate a bit.

Islam did liberate women from the dark ages where they had no rights at all.

Y'huh. But that doesn't necessarily mean it made them equal. Again, this reads a bit to me like the "its easier to understand in historical context" type of argument the OP made regarding polygamy, and begs the same type of questions. I'm not saying Islam is wrong in its differing treatment of genders, rather that I'm just not convinced in the claim of equality.

if you think that women would have more rights by showing their body off how is that considered to be a civilised thing?

The question I would ask is why you think its civilised for a man to show his bare arms, shins, feet in public, but for a woman, it should be limited to face and hands.

I'm not suggesting the rules should be identical (although I'm sure some would), and I'm certainly no fan of some of the (lack of) clothing I see people of both genders wearing at times. I'm just saying that from my perspective, some of the distinctions seem to go above and beyond any reasonably equal application of reasoning that I can determine. I'm perfectly open to the possibility that it is my lacking, which is why so much of what I'm posting is being phrased as questions.

would they go to work wearing bikinis just to show that they are liberated?

Well, that would have to be their decision to make. However, the more important question is perhaps why they can't wear swimsuits at the sea.

That begs a completely tangential question. What do Muslim men wear when they go swimming?

jc

Suff

You are 100% right to ask all these question, that's how we learn from each other.

I think it is so the woman can dress modestly, not used as a sex symbol.
showing arms and legs do get the male brain going places and that would insult the woman.
however the woman can be normal (respectable, hair, arms and legs ) infront of their parents, brothers, sisters, husband or the husband's father. but not to the husband's brother or cosins.

in regards to swiming, men wear long shorts
.wemon on the other hand...well it depends on the culture of the country really..like in Syria, Lebanon it's ok to have a mixed swiming pool / Beaches wheremen and women can swim together. women do wear bikini.
while in the gulf states it's different, where women have their day of the week and men have theirs, women are allowed to wear what they like as long as it does cover the main parts! men wear the long shorts again.

bonkey

Suff wrote:

I think it is so the woman can dress modestly, not used as a sex symbol.
showing arms and legs do get the male brain going places and that would insult the woman.

I'm pretty sure that I've already pointed out that I get this.

What I don't get is the implicit suggestion that women (or indeed other men) will not get their brain going places by what men are permitted to reveal.

This is the discrepancy I don't understand, and still cannot reconcile with the original claims of equality.

I cannot understand how it can be seen as immodest for a woman to come to work in a short-sleeved shirt (for example), but not for a man.

As I've said before, I'm not suggesting 100% sameness of treatment,

I'm asking why a woman's arms can be immodest to show to a man, but a man's arms are not immodest to show to a woman. Or hands. Or feet. Or the lower parts of their legs.

Its almost as if there is a suggestion that virtually the entire female body is viewed in a certain way (by men), while far, far less of the male body is viewed in a reciprocal manner (by women). Is this the case?

jc

bonkey

Suff wrote:

in regards to swiming, men wear long shorts
.wemon on the other hand...well it depends on the culture of the country really..like in Syria, Lebanon it's ok to have a mixed swiming pool / Beaches wheremen and women can swim together. women do wear bikini.
while in the gulf states it's different, where women have their day of the week and men have theirs, women are allowed to wear what they like as long as it does cover the main parts! men wear the long shorts again.

Lest I forget...

I know its off-topic, but thanks for answering that.

jc

Hobbes

I suggest the OP read the charter before posting again. Thread locked (not binned due to the replies).

Hobbes

I have unlocked this thread and the other by the OP. I have also unbanned Qadri.

The charter is strict on copying articles verbatim (rule 7). At this the OP claims they have written the article and have given me details to check the validity of this (will do so when back from holiday), although I was able to find another claiming to have written the piece.

I just wanted to post this comment public due to the number of PMs about it.

In future for everyone, please do not post an article verbatim (even if you wrote it). Link to the article in question and use fair use quotes on it.

Just to add. This decision is not open for discussion on this thread (nor any of the other OP threads). Take it to the rules thread if you have an issue with this.

Shabadu

Is it a bird, is it a plane…no, it's superwoman! Oh yes…Islam elevated the status of women 1,400 years ago by declaring them equal to men...

If men and women are regarded as truly equal in Islam, then a woman would be permitted to marry up to four men if she could maintain them and treat them equally.

Suff

Shabadu wrote:

If men and women are regarded as truly equal in Islam, then a woman would be permitted to marry up to four men if she could maintain them and treat them equally.

in that case can you tell me who would be the father for each child???
That is the main reason I think they are not allowed to marry more than 1.
also it's not sexual thing you know! as in have more women in one bed!

Rev Hellfire

Suff wrote:

in that case can you tell me who would be the father for each child???

I'm not sure what you're saying here, how is it different from swapping father for mother which seems to be acceptable ? I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here.

Shabadu

Suff wrote:

in that case can you tell me who would be the father for each child???
That is the main reason I think they are not allowed to marry more than 1.
also it's not sexual thing you know! as in have more women in one bed!

Oh dear. Well, in today's world, we could consider Paternity Tests. Also, I don't give a fiddlers if it's 'not for sexual reasons', quite simply, it's inequality.

Suff

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I'm not sure what you're saying here, how is it different from swapping father for mother which seems to be acceptable ? I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here.

ok if a woman can have more than one husband, she could get pregnant from one of them and they won't know the father until they do some DNA teste. anyway I don't think a man can see his wife with another man can you?

Wibbs

Shabadu wrote:

If men and women are regarded as truly equal in Islam, then a woman would be permitted to marry up to four men if she could maintain them and treat them equally.

Fair point, but I also take Suff's point with regard to paternity.

In other regards such as mode of dress, freedom to move around, freedom to meet who she wants(outside of specified family members), position in society and position in law, women do seem to be lesser in many ways. Even Qadri's statement that a woman as a witness in a murder may be unreliable as "Due to her emotional condition she can get confused", suggests a definite bias in many areas and seems to disregard an individuals skills and temperament in favour of more "traditional", some would say outmoded gender based ideas of male and female.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

anyway I don't think a man can see his wife with another man can you?

Why should a woman be any different in this? The idea that women will somehow find it easier to accept another woman with her husband is a bit strange TBH.

Shabadu

Suff wrote:

ok if a woman can have more than one husband, she could get pregnant from one of them and they won't know the father until they do some DNA teste.

You can perform In Vitro paternity tests.

anyway I don't think a man can see his wife with another man can you?

Possibly because men are *allowed* object to what women can and cannot do, whereas a woman may just have to accept her fate. For your information, there is no way in hell i'd ever be anything approaching 'ok' with my future husband having another wife.