Read Carefully...What happened here?

fade2black · 18-10-2005 3:19pm #1

Live Game, final table.

3 players left me, BB, SB.

Flop comes 6 J 8. Checked to me...I have A9, bet min 80..BB folds, SB calls. Next card, A. SB checks, I bet 800 again. SB calls. River A. SB bets 1000, I think about the flat call, think about what he might have me on...In the end I decide that since I was betting before the ace he may not have me on it and could be trying a steal with a jack...then i think that the one grand was a sucker bet...whatever....I re raise all in cause my chip stack told me too. Now pay attention to this part....

I re raise all in. SB turns over A6...full house. Takes the pot.

What happened here? I left out no detail, it happened like that word for word.

Lafortezza · 18-10-2005 3:30pm

What the hell are you talking about? You lost with a worse hand, what am I missing??

fade2black · 18-10-2005 3:32pm

I told you to read carefully.

Culchie · 18-10-2005 3:34pm

Yeh, are you saying just because he called your flop bet with a pair of 6's he should have automatically folded?

He had two pair on the turn, so he was going nowhere at this stage of the tourney with that hand.

ntlbell · 18-10-2005 3:34pm

lafortezza wrote:

What the hell are you talking about? You lost with a worse hand, what am I missing??

I thought it was just me......

Lafortezza · 18-10-2005 3:35pm

Did the SB call after you reraised all-in? Or did he just turn over his hand?

fade2black · 18-10-2005 3:36pm

Ok I won't let this go on anymore....

Basically, when I re raised...he never called me, just threw over his cards.

There was a hullabaloo after the hand...and after he had been given all the chips. Too late for me, although I was given my entry fee back with an apology at the end.

Crumbs · 18-10-2005 3:37pm

He took the whole pot including your raise?

Technically, if he's facing a bet and turns over his cards without saying anything, he's folded. But in this case, it's obvious that he intends it to be a call. Was there a dealer? Or a tournament director? Personally, I'd let it go but you could be a bitch and ask for a ruling.

ntlbell · 18-10-2005 3:37pm

nevermind...........

SIGH..

fade2black · 18-10-2005 3:39pm

Crumbs wrote:

He took the whole pot including your raise?

Technically, if he's facing a bet and turns over his cards without saying anything, he's folded. But in this case, it's obvious that he intends it to be a call. Was there a dealer? Or a tournament director? Personally, I'd let it go but you could be a bitch and ask for a ruling.

I didn't say anything of course..the way i saw it was I was beaten, plain and simple but a discussion began soon enough about the technicalities of it etc...it was just the first time i encountered that.

Fatboydim · 18-10-2005 3:55pm

If he said Call and turned the hand over without moving chips - it's binding and he won the pot.

If he said nothing and turns the hand over it's a fold. You win the pot.

Culchie · 18-10-2005 3:56pm

aahhh.

I had a similar situation in a the last Pub Tourney I attended, this was the straw that broke the camels back for me, despite me getting a nagging feeling to attend it every Monday.

I was in BB with KK, and there was an UTG raise with 99, folded around to me (both big stacks). I re-raised him all-in.

The self dealer flopped the three cards and the K was the first to show (giving me the set), and the other guy threw his cards in face down. Then the dealer 'spread' the other two cards from below the flopped king and there was a 10 and an 8, the guy picked up his cards again, you guessed it, turn was a 7, and river a 6.

I said he had folded his cards, but most of the rest of the table (he was a regular) said he hadn't 'folded' as such, just laid his cards down.

I didn't even ask for a ruling, as I didn't fancy the hassle and I was sick of the pissing about at this stage anyway.....which I was a mug not to, but heh, I'm a nice guy

fade2black · 18-10-2005 4:01pm

Ordinarily I'd say that's the benefit of playing in a proper poker club rather than a pub...but I was in a poker club.

RoundTower · 18-10-2005 4:15pm

If it's clear he's calling, and he does have a full house of aces, just give him the pot. If there's any question he might not be calling, don't release your hand until it is clear. The dealer won't push him the pot unless you muck or it is understood that he calls.

And I would have given Culchie's opponent back his cards, too, if they hadn't been mucked.

Culchie · 18-10-2005 4:22pm

They were kinda thrown in disgust face down, and it all honesty he mucked them.

I chose not to make an issue of it, so I'm not bitching, fade2's story just reminded me of it.

fade2black · 18-10-2005 4:26pm

What if he was folding, and this is only hypotethical...and threw up his cards...but never realised what he had. What happens then? This is why the rules are in place.

fade2black · 18-10-2005 4:28pm

I'm not bitching either, and I didn't at the time either...I just wanted to post it to get some opinions.

Fatboydim · 18-10-2005 4:42pm

fade2black wrote:

What if he was folding, and this is only hypotethical...and threw up his cards...but never realised what he had. What happens then? This is why the rules are in place.

It is a players responsibility to protect his cards at all times. If he exposes them and doesn't say Call it's a fold... even if he has the winning hand.

So in your example as above... You win.

Where it gets tricky is if he did something like Nod his head - before throwing over his cards as this might be deemed a call.

fade2black · 18-10-2005 4:47pm

He sat in silence and turned them over...pure smug.

Fatboydim · 18-10-2005 4:59pm

fade2black wrote:

He sat in silence and turned them over...pure smug.

I'd have called the TD over and seen how smug he was then.

Out of interest where was this?

fade2black · 18-10-2005 5:01pm

Waterford

Lafortezza · 18-10-2005 5:30pm

fade2black wrote:

He sat in silence and turned them over...pure smug.

If he had been a novice player who wasn't 100% on how things work then I might give him the benefite of the doubt and concede the pot.
But since he was an bollox about it I'd take back you're all-in bet, ask for the tournament director and say that Villain's hand was dead when he turned it over without saying anything.
If the tournament director agrees with you then take the pot, give the finger to the smug tosser and possibly insult his mother while you're at it.

If the tournament director says that Villain wins the pot (including all your chips), disagree because as soon as Villain turns up his hand without a word it's dead. Refuse to put the chips from your all-in reraise back in the pot and tell the tournament director to either ban you from the tournament or let the game continue.

If you get banned the give the tournament director the finger and insult his mother too.

I remember something similar to this happening in the Fitz a fair while ago, Musician raised all-in, next to act gives a smug grin and shows AA before calling. The hand was allowed to continue and AA won. A couple of more experienced players afterwards said that AA should have been ruled dead.

fade2black · 18-10-2005 5:39pm

You're right, in everything you say. A couple of points about it -

*The dealer is terrible, she is the most unprofessional dealer a club will ever see...she has the craic with all the players but makes loads of mistakes, and also looks at people's cards when they fold them. She was never going to be sharp enough to spot what happened.
*I have to be honest and say that as soon as he turned his cards over I got lost in the situation and it was only the other players (all of them because the villain is not liked up in the club) that raised the issue. Unfortunately the dealer had given him all the chips and that was that.
*The tournament director was outside dealing with someone at the door and no one called him in...in fairness, when he did return he was pissed off that nobody called him and he imediately apologised to me and gave me a refund. I was happy with that cause in my head I was outplayed and beaten, simple as...strictly speaking I know he technically shouldn't have won but I've learned another valuable lesson along the way.

tricky D · 18-10-2005 11:29pm

lafortezza wrote:

I remember something similar to this happening in the Fitz a fair while ago, Musician raised all-in, next to act gives a smug grin and shows AA before calling. The hand was allowed to continue and AA won. A couple of more experienced players afterwards said that AA should have been ruled dead.

The Fitz Rule is if your hand is exposed, IT IS NOT DEAD, you can only call, not raise. It is, of course, unethical and generally results in a warning. The action is perfectly legal under some rules variations played in some places like in France iirc.

Lafortezza · 18-10-2005 11:46pm

I think this was a matter of years ago Tricky, not recently,general consensus was that the AA hand *could* have been ruled dead.

Benglian · 19-10-2005 11:24am

Why exactly is the hand dead?
I know it is unethical to turn over cards looking for a reaction, but it does not mean the hand is dead.
I had this situation in the Merrion.
It is Omaha, and I am heads up against Chinese Jimmy (Bob Marley).
I am on a wrap, and have been calling him down on a two suit flop.
It flushes up at the end and he checks to me, so i represent and make a three quarter pot sized bet.
He turns over two pair and asks me if it is good, stares me down, thinks for ages and then calls.
Takes the pot down.
I immediately ask for a ruling, and get told 'unethical, but his hand is NOT dead unless mucked', but he does get a warning.
Also, technically a hand is not mucked unless it has touched other cards in the muck. Even if the dealer has his hand on them but they have NOT touched other cards then they can be given back. Once they touch another card then they are dead, not when they are just face down on the table.

fade2black · 19-10-2005 11:30am

It's all about technical rules really...if a tournament is to get a good name it has to be strict on all rules. Now the difference between the situation in this thread and the one you describe is that the guy turned over his hand......and then called. There was no call in this story, just a turn over....and he got all the chips without opening his mouth or pushing forward his own stack.

bohsman · 19-10-2005 11:35am

fade2black wrote:

It's all about technical rules really...if a tournament is to get a good name it has to be strict on all rules. Now the difference between the situation in this thread and the one you describe is that the guy turned over his hand......and then called. There was no call in this story, just a turn over....and he got all the chips without opening his mouth or pushing forward his own stack.

In which case the dealer should have asked "is that a fold" and go to take cards, players smug look disapears as he grabs his cards and says hes calling

bohsman · 19-10-2005 11:36am

Also why did you declare your hand if he hadnt acted yet?

fade2black · 19-10-2005 11:40am

I re raised all in...he shows his cards.....As I said previously my mind hadn't caught up with what was happening...it was the other players...as soon as he threw up his cards, I did too.

After he collected the chips the point was made that he never actually called me.

jimbling · 19-10-2005 1:37pm

Fatboydim wrote:

If he exposes them and doesn't say Call it's a fold... even if he has the winning hand.

So in your example as above... You win.

I don't know if this is true. I thought you are allowed turn over your cards before calling or folding. You must indicate which you are doing.

If the initial raiser makes the mistake of reacting, then thats tough.

I'm no expert on the rules, but I have had this strategy used against me. It may have been against the rules, but it was in a Vegas casino, so I assumed they are pretty tight on rules there.

Socos · 19-10-2005 2:26pm

It happened to me in a tournament. I asked a player how much he had left after he checked into me. He turned over his cards. Ruling was I could still bet but he could only call. If you were behind after he shows his hand would you bet at the pot. Also would you bet if you were in front.

Bp! · 19-10-2005 2:37pm

fade2black wrote:

Live Game, final table.

3 players left me, BB, SB.

Flop comes 6 J 8. Checked to me...I have A9, bet min 80...

final table and 80 is the min bet??

fade2black · 19-10-2005 2:46pm

Sorry, that was meant to be 800. There were two big tournaments on that night so we were quieter than usual...final table was before the break for the first time ever.

The Troll · 19-10-2005 2:57pm

its a tough decision as people at a table tend to get pissed off when you call the rules in.

I was the victim of a string bet in the Merrion(by a club regular) a few weeks ago in a sit and go. I said that it was a string bet but the other regulars at the table said it wasn't. I just let it go as I couldn't have been bothered getting a judgement on it.

fade2black · 19-10-2005 3:06pm

Don't play at tables like that then...if they don't want to play properly they should stick to home games.

The Troll · 19-10-2005 3:38pm

yip. im gonna try Rathfarnham next, as I hate the Merrion. Fitz and Mewrrion are also a trek for me as well, so im gonna try local.

Fatboydim · 19-10-2005 5:29pm

jimbling wrote:

I don't know if this is true. I thought you are allowed turn over your cards before calling or folding. You must indicate which you are doing.

That's the point here... The player didn't. As I said if he nodded or gave any indication it was a call. And the argument would probably rage that it was a call... But the rule is correct... whether it's always applied is down to the TD or floor manager.

As for the muck rule I fell foul of this in the US... I raised from SB pre-flop with AK and everyone folded - or so it seemed... Dealer pushed the pot to me and I released my cards... Only to have a player declare he was still in the hand... He had had his arm in front of his cards so neither I or the dealer could see them ... Technically this is a breach of the rules too... As is interlacing chips of different values - but you rarely see that rule enforced. My cards had touched the muck and even though the dealer had not taken her hands off the cards and showed my AK I had to conceed the pot to him... He showed his cards and he had something like 45 - no way was he thinking of calling... He was just an asshole who knew the rules better than I did at that time... So I never release my cards now until I am 100% certain all players have folded.. or shown and the pot is pushed to me.

Later the player apologised to me during the break... He knew what he was at.

mewso · 19-10-2005 7:31pm

The hand I was involved with was very similar but just as obviously a call. As Luke said I went all-in with JJ and Cormie (remember it?)

looked at me with a smile and turned over AA saying nothing. It was assumed to be a call but afterwards when the AA stood up someone said to Cormie that he should be careful because I could have asked that his hand be declared dead. I'm not sure how accurate this is but I always assumed it to be.

kinaldo · 22-10-2005 9:27pm

A similar thing happened to me in The Fitz Freeroll today. I asked for a ruling mainly because the guy was a wound up foul mouthed obnoxious twat who was really getting on my nerves. I had raised his bb all in utg which was folded around to him. He thinks for a while and then flashes 88 in my face. I still have no idea what he's doing and tell him his hand is dead just as he's about to push his chips in. He argued that he didn't intentionally show me his hand, but imo it could hardly have been more blatant. He was taking ages and clearly looked for a reaction. The decision was ruled against me and his 88 held up against my 53 to knock me out.

Read Carefully...What happened here?

Comments