PA Sytems

gogul

Hey,

I looking to invest in a PA, and have no idea what to get. My band is a blues/rock 4 piece (2 guitars, 1 bass, 1 drum kit, 2 vocal mics) and we're looking for something we can use for rehearsals, and small function gigs.

Anybody got any suggestions?

Finny

sei046

my soundman does all the pa's for the big bands gigging in ireland(big generator,cunning stunts, hot rocks, bomber band) so if u pm me i will give you his number. Now he only really deals in good stuff and wont bullsh*t you so dont bullsh*t him. My old band bought an unbelievable rig off him for 6 grand, its completely top class.

david

Check out some of the sets on thomann. "The Box" brand stuff is quite good for what you pay for it. I got an active 15" sub, x2 10" tops, two stands, and cables for a little over 600 a while ago. I can say thats it a pretty decent piece of kit for what i paid. I got a little 12 channel Yamaha mixer for about 100 too.The rig i got can fill a pretty decent sized venue tbh. You dont have to pay thousands to get a nice rig. However I suggest you run the guitars through amps, and DI the bass. Guitars wont sound too good through the PA unless you get a couple of PODs or something

sei046

If you are in aserious gigging band you will have to know your stuff. And if you know your stuff you will be micing your guitar amps. To get a decent kick of a kit you need 18" subs and a decent set of 12 or 15 tops. Thats a rock band rig that will cost you but its down to you which you wanna do. You can get smaller PA's but you will be lacking trust me

david

Well it is a blues/rock band, a 2x15 + 1/2x18 might be overkill for "rehearsal/small function gigs", most gigs will either have an in house PA or if theres a few bands playin, usually the organisers hire out a sound engineer and PA.

For a blues/rock band, you should be looking at small valve combos, fender hot rod/peavey classic, which will be plenty loud at 30 or 40 watts and 1x12, for gigs they can be mic'd. DI'd guitar sounds gay so you shouldnt rely on a PA for guitar sounds.

Hmm... I beg to differ, i can get a great kick tone out of my 15" active sub, not thin at all.

david

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=308466

HAve you seen this? Looks like a nice rig

Rustar

gogul wrote:

Anybody got any suggestions?

You've mentioned the type of music you play and your gig size, but not how much ca$h you guys can scrape together. That would be my first question.

gogul

Rustar wrote:

You've mentioned the type of music you play and your gig size, but not how much ca$h you guys can scrape together. That would be my first question.

Hmm, good question. I'd say anywhere up to about €1500.

sei046

well with a rig you get what you pay for really. I agree for small pubs at low volumes you dont need a massive rig but if you are seriously gigging nationwide your gonna need it. I frontloaded 15 is gonna start popping with a nice kick drum.

sei046

it doesnt look like that rig has a proper crossover. I just hope you know what your looking for

david

Yeah i know but the rig i linked has good potential, since he's including 2 amps, you can buy a x-over and run the tops at half power

sei046

ye its a nice price for the pa i suppose but not second hand and it is what it is if you catch my drift. Go see a band with a truly great sound and they will be sporting more power than that. Your pa doesnt brings your guitar sound into the mix, it doesnt make your guitar sound. I would be very surprised if a band playin a any pub didnt mic their guitars. It all depends i suppose on the band(if they are established or not). an established "ROCK"band will have to have a decent mix and you wont get a decent "ROCK" sound out of that system.

david

That peavey system is potentially 2.1kW with a x-over, doesn't seem underpowered to me.

sei046

that is more than enough for rehearsals and will...get you by...in a decent sized gig. If your playing at low volumes you wont have a problem. Its when you are playing something where some is coming to see you(as in your not just playin to drinkers) that you will be needing to put on a professional show. It is a great pa for what it is for sure. If its what you want that its a fairly decent deal i suppose. Watch them amps though, not sure how they stand up to a caudio of h&h

david

Yeah that was my main concern, cheap amps. I can see why yer man bought a back up

sei046

they are like behringers i reckon, nothing wrong with them except reliability. Last thing you need is it blowing at a gig. Always better off payin the xtra few quid for a decent amp

david

Well I dont currently own any behringer gear but i've heard good things about SOME stuff. A lot of the newer models (like the s500 reference power amp) use quality parts and are reliable but they have some stuff to stay from too. Might pick the new DI they have out to see what its like, only 30 quid or so.

sei046

behringer have a great price-quality ratio. Their ultra Di is fantastic and i am using them. I use a behringer 48 track in the studio and its great. They dont stand up to other companys but they are great cheap alternatives. They certainly are far from rubbish equipment but are not "pro" audio

Shane Smith

jaysus stay away from "the box" and all that shop brand stuff unless muffled vocals is part of your act.

Peavey are ok but still not great unless you avoid the entry level systems

I'd recommend Dynacord, the new Powermate desks have 2x700w outputs and come in 6, 10 or 16 ch mixers. They're not cheap but there's a reason why they're not cheap...

Behringer are pretty good with a lot of their stuff like fx, compressors and maybe even poweramps but I wouldnt be mad about their mixers

Whoever suggested 18" subs for small pubs & rehearsals needs their head examined, by all means mic everything up (Shure mics all the way) but most situations wont require the use of bass bins - unless you fancy a slipped disc in yer back liftin the things up and down backstairs of pubs:eek:

2 good tops would do u for a while and you could always add on as you need to...

now, back in my box:D

sei046

.........your saying to get a decent rock sound in a pub you need two tops am i right?......I use a 12 channel 1600 watt dynacord and its great but not missing a lot of features. Allen and Heath are the business for gettin a sound. Behringer equipment is fine but take it out on the road 3 nights a week every week and it will fail i promise you. And run your rig through a behringer eq and then try a 500-800 euro eq and you will see why i dont use behringer

Shane Smith

well the main behringer product I'd use is the Mutlicom compressor/gate thing which has been gigged extensively and I assure you there has been no fault yet and it should run for a long time yet

its a preference thing, but yes I would say that 2 good* tops are the bare essential for decent sound doing pub work

*= Dynacord, EV, Mackie etc

david

Well if youre not DI'ing bass and you're playin a small pub gig, i guess 2 nice 15's will get you by fine. The money you could save on not gettin subs will allow you to get a nicer desk/top quality tops.

sei046

what i am saying is to get a good sound you should be centralising it. You have a nice drum sound, with lots of punch etc and a nice kick out of your bass. You will not get the sound to travel right or get any kick without subs. You can go the route of just using tops but forget any kick in your mix at all. It is a sound to get you by but will not be awe inspiring. You need decent subs to give you a nice kick and centralise your sound. If you dont, i assure you, your sound will be below sub standard

Shane Smith

you may be right sei046 but note...

gogul wrote:

something we can use for rehearsals, and small function gigs.

small being the keyword there...

Eoin Madsen

I wouldn't worry about subs unless you're DJing, tbh. A couple of good 300+ watt full range speakers will be fine. Guitar and bass amps don't need to be in the PA as long as they're reasonably loud themselves - keep it for vocals, keys, and a little bit of drums. Subs will only serve to muddy your sound. Next off, get vocal monitors, get graphic EQs, biamp the speakers, then think about subs.

sei046

...ok guys seriously but that to the test. What Shane said is right but eoin research into what you just said and see what you find. I already said that you need to centralise your sound in ANY venue, you cannot possibly do that without micing guitars and drums etc. You will get next to no kick out of a full range speaker compared to a decent sub. Look, If your serious about a live sound you need to get a serious P.a. There is no easy way around gettin decent subs. If you wanna do it the other way just beware of your consequences and get ready to start saving for subs. They make all the difference trust me. Go watch ANY established band, even local established band with a very goodd sound and you will see what i mean

Shane Smith

sei046 I will admit I do love the thickness a good set of powerful subs add to a full band mix but that's not to say that one can't get a very good sound from 2 good tops of at least 300w each from one of the better speaker manufacturers

I own 2 EV tops & 2 EV Subs and rarely use the subs simply because their inclusion doesnt add enough to warrant lugging the things all over the country, its just silly and impractical.

Also its not a sign of a bands "status" just because they do or dont use subs, that makes no sense to me tbh. I know from experience that you WILL get a "kick" out of a good top/full range speaker because I've used them for years in many situations and there's probably a better argument for a system of 4 Tops rather than 2 Tops + 2 Subs. I just dont see the point of subs just to add a little extra kick drum punch, in small set ups it is pointless but I do agree that amps etc need to be mic'd up for better overall mix

sei046

no a P.A is not a sign of a bands status but a good band wil be using subs for the sound. Get 2 array ev bins and 2 deltamax and put a band through it properly set up, then put a band through four full range tops and see which sounds better. You see if you know your stuff you will get a sound out of those subs that no amount of full range tops will give you. If your lugging around those subs in your car i understand, but once again if your making money and doing venues you wont be bringing your rig in a car. It is acceptable to not mic up guitars and stuff and leave the kit.....just ok... But it is a very substandard sound., certainly wouldnt leave you impressed. Its the difference between being ok and good

Shane Smith

sei046 wrote:

Its the difference between being ok and good

Incorrect, that difference is rehearsals, not how much you spend on overpriced flashy gear that all these "established bands" use. You seem to be ignoring the original post, he's not talking about a system for the Point Depot so bringing in a 5k rig to a small music bar is insane and likely to have you escorted off the premises swiftly.

A good band will sound good thru any system, subs or no subs, you can't make any link between the level of a band judging by how loud their PA system is.

Money can buy great subs, but it cant buy musical skills.

Eoin Madsen

sei046 wrote:

...ok guys seriously but that to the test. What Shane said is right but eoin research into what you just said and see what you find. I already said that you need to centralise your sound in ANY venue, you cannot possibly do that without micing guitars and drums etc. You will get next to no kick out of a full range speaker compared to a decent sub. Look, If your serious about a live sound you need to get a serious P.a. There is no easy way around gettin decent subs. If you wanna do it the other way just beware of your consequences and get ready to start saving for subs. They make all the difference trust me. Go watch ANY established band, even local established band with a very goodd sound and you will see what i mean

I'm a sound engineer, I've done plenty of gigs in my time. What you're saying is nice in theory but not in practice - you need to be at 2k+ before that stuff becomes important. Which really is overkill in this situation. If your amps are within 2/3 metres of your PA and are loud enough to compete (which they should be if you're only around 300 watts per side) the sound will be centralised enough. If you put everything through the speakers your headroom will be gone and your sound will suck ass, subs or no subs. A full range speaker is more than enough to carry bass in a small room. The first logical step in increasing the quality and low end response is getting an electronic crossover and biamping the speakers. Subs are well down the list of things you need.

Most local and established bands in this city have ****ing terrible sound, so that's hardly a convincing argument.

fitz

sei046 wrote:

ok guys seriously but that to the test. What Shane said is right but eoin research into what you just said and see what you find.

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I'm a sound engineer, I've done plenty of gigs in my time. What you're saying is nice in theory but not in practice - you need to be at 2k+ before that stuff becomes important.

sei046

I am a sound engineer too and i am telling you a crossover over two 300watt tops is going to make not one bit of difference. You have misunderstood me again, I am saying You can be the best musician in the world playin through the loudest amp in the world but unless you have a decent balance which is best gotten through a decent rig your selling yourself short. I have said that there is no need for it at rehearsals but for most decent music pubs you will soon find yourself kicked out if you are putting out a rubbish sound regardless of how good you are. All i am saying is just get ready to add 2 subs to your rig when you see what a difference it can make when a good engineer is behind the desk

Eoin Madsen

I don't think I am misunderstanding you, but we're definitely not on the same page alright. For a start, do you understand that a full range speaker and a "top" or mid/high speaker are two different things?

You're not wrong but, imo, you're not really looking at this scenario in the right context.
1) The situation implied simply does not require that much low frequency power. If you have a 300 watt bass amp (which seems to be the norm these days) in a small venue, why on earth would you operate it at 10/20% power so you can DI it into a PA system - if headroom is a problem?? Kick drum is the only significant LF source that might eat up your power, and it's transient anyway. The considerable increase in the expense, weight, convenience, and simplicity of operation of the PA system easily outweighs the advantage of having that little extra headroom, especially given that...
2) Chances are he's not going to be working with a good engineer, and the last thing you want to do when you have someone without a notion of what they're doing operating a PA is to give said individual the power to completely **** up the sound by having hugely disproportionate amount of low frequencies.

A good powerful pair of 2- or 3-way full-range speakers will engineer themselves, as well as being a much more simple setup, requiring much less effort to move around, and in practice, doing just as good a job.

Now ultimately, we are both going to have to concede that this may come down to subjective preference. I believe live sound should strive towards the same balance as recorded music. Given that most of the venues in Dublin sound like ****ing night clubs, there are obviously a few engineers out there that don't hold to that philosophy. Or don't have a philosophy. :rolleyes:

sei046

well i am willing to agree that

i) With a person who knows what their are at, 2 decent subs are invaluable to his sound.
ii) If the its the route they want to take then yes full range speakers are more managable
iii) To solidify a gig in a decent venue you have to have an impressive sound.

We are kind of argueing the same thing i think.
I will not part with the notion however that two 18" bins are completely invaluable to a mix where available. In fact i am currently using 2 18's a sound and rear loaded. Granted that is enough power to play any venue i will be playing but i can assure you, I wouldnt part with them

sei046

oh and if your aiming for a record sound you will HAVE to use bins to give you headroom in your mix as you will have to mic everythin and mix everything

jimi_t

Not wanting to get caught in the crossfire here or anything but...which is the better option for a keyboardist - run it through the PA or run it on a separate amp? What do you mean when you say to "mic" an amp exactly? What exactly is meant by DI (Direct Injection or whatever it is) and why does it make such a difference to low end frequencies?

sei046

ideally Di your keyboard but if you really really like the sound of your amp you can mic it. 9 out of 10 its better to DI.

micing just means placing a mic infront of an amp. If you are using digital equipment its usually better to di. If you are using something like a tube amp you will pretty much always be micing. Also if you are using a great speaker that really adds to your sound (like it mite be in your amp) then you are better off capturing that sound

Rustar

jimi_t wrote:

What exactly is meant by DI (Direct Injection or whatever it is) and why does it make such a difference to low end frequencies?

Direct Input simply means your instrument amplifier hooks up to the mixer/PA. Most bass equipment has DI outputs so you can hook it directly to the PA. It's the 3-prong hole that looks like a mic cable would fit into it, in fact that's exactly what it is. If you're a bigger band and have a separate mixing console across the room, you'd need to hook your instrument(s) to a DI Box at the end of a snake (special cable full of mic cables) and run it across the room to the mixer. Otherwise, just connect the instruments to your powered speakers.

Bass is run DI a lot because bass frequencies don't cut through as well as piercing guitar distortion, even though we might be using 5 times the wattage. This is especially true since about 1970 where the push has been to give guitarists as much bass component and 'chunk' in their sound as possible.
Bass and keyboards also work well DI because their volume ranges are more controllable. It's more or less standard to mic guitars, but if you DI them, you'd better have a compressor/limiter hooked to the mixer!

Eoin Madsen

It does mean Direct Injection. Basically, it's used to mean any sound source going directly into the mixing desk as is, and without use of a microphone. It's thrown around a bit. The actual purpose of a DI box is to send the input signal out balanced so there's less noise over a long cable length, and the signal impedance is appropiate to the input impedance of the mixer.

Whatever you choose to do with your keyboard, I'd recommend you get an amp or a monitor speaker anyway. If you end up DIing but you have no sound on stage, it's going to be a long gig.

Available headroom still comes down to how loud you want it, Sei046. Everything coming from a point source in no way affects the actual balance of a record, so I don't agree that it's necessary to mic or DI everything to achieve that. It is easier, but only in a venue large enough to justify the power. I still thing dedicated LF drivers would do more harm than good in a situation like this one.

Rustar

Eoin Madsen wrote:

It does mean Direct Injection.

I stand corrected. I had always called it direct input because the outputs(?!) on our amps always said 'Direct Input' or 'Balanced Input'.

sei046

if your one the left hand side of a venue you will not hear the guitarist on the right....think about it. You need it coming out of the PA so its a nice mix. If your standing directly in the middle of the gig and the musicians have their volumes up pretty high(which you dont want to start with) it would be ok but as a musician you want your own personal mix for yourself so you can hear the band and its not overpowered by your amp whcih has to be up really loud. In this situation where the guy doesnt know how to handle a rig or has no sound experience i agree it could be a false move but if that is the case the sound will only be so good either way.

Eoin Madsen

sei046 wrote:

if your one the left hand side of a venue you will not hear the guitarist on the right....think about it.

I've done enough gigs to know that it's not a usual problem.

sei046

not when the mix is right.

rich metallitia

its all down to presonal preferences. every engineer I work with has different ideas. its all subjective. even wehen we use our own rig its down to my personal taste. as long as my amp is louder than hell I'm fine.. haha

feylya

What power amp are you using in your rack?

gogul

Hey guys,

Thanks for all your advice...some of it was a bit over my head to be honest. I've done a bit of sniffing and found the following combo:

Alesis MultiMix 12FX (€350) (is there also a 16 channel version of this?) and a pair of FBT JOLLY-12 BA (€800 Each). Only one problem: TOTAL (€1950).

I reckon this is a bit much for me. Can anyone suggest some good powered speakers (range 200W - 300W each) that may replace the Jollys? Something maybe around the €400 range for each.

Cheers

BME

yep try these:
http://www.thomann.de/thoiw6_artikel-184540.html

very durable

gogul

BME wrote:

yep try these:
http://www.thomann.de/thoiw6_artikel-184540.html

very durable

They look quite good. Exactly what I was looking for. How reliable is Thomann for delivery in Eire?

sei046

usually spot on.....Dont as Fey lol

Johnny Storm

gogul wrote:

....Eire?

Post-modern ironic usage, I presume? :eek:

BME

Personally I hate Thomann.

http://www.musicstore.com miles better and delivery 4-5 working days if in stock (in 3 years trading I've had 0 problems with this company)