North Korean human rights. Why don't people care?

fionntan

I don't pretend to great on words. Especially when it's something I'm really passionate about. But this quote comes from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea

North Korea has one of the worst human rights records of any nation.

North Korea is accused of severely restricting most freedoms, including freedom of speech and freedom of movement, both inside the country and abroad. Most infamously the DPRK employs concentration camps. These camps are believed to hold as many as 200,000 inmates, including children whose only crime is having so-called "class enemies" for parents.

Also please, if you do anything today just read this report from Freedom House.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2005/nk05.pdf

Then just think long and hard about where the truly destructive governments are in the world. The real evil.
Is it from our so-called "rip-off government"? Is it from the Kansas City board's idea to consider "Intelligent Design" in science class? Is the preventing of gay marraige in otherwise extremely liberal societies?
No, no and no.
Yet why do these issues dominate our media? Why are we so obsessed with the (comparitively) small flaws of the western world?
It is my belief we in the west are morally obligated to intervene and end Kim-Jong-Il's regime. This I think is only possible through military means. I also believe the anti-war protests from the left have made this impossible for the near future.
Is the left proud of this? It's bizarre that this movement only seem to care about small extra liberties for themselves yet completely blank attrocities in the 3rd world that don't involve America.
But I'm not here to argue. Just to make a point.
Stand up against real injustice in the world.
Kim-Jong-il's evil regime must end.

black_jack

fionntan wrote:

I don't pretend to great on words. Especially when it's something I'm really passionate about. But this quote comes from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea



Also please, if you do anything today just read this report from Freedom House.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2005/nk05.pdf

Then just think long and hard about where the truly destructive governments are in the world. The real evil.

What about Zimbawbie? Concentration camps, mass starvation. Or Saudi Arbaia, oppression of women, death penalty, mulitilation?

Is it from our so-called "rip-off government"? Is it from the Kansas City board's idea to consider "Intelligent Design" in science class? Is the preventing of gay marraige in otherwise extremely liberal societies?
No, no and no.
Yet why do these issues dominate our media? Why are we so obsessed with the (comparitively) small flaws of the western world?

Taking money that I earn, to squander on consultations, at the expense of my countrymen.

That the leading most advanced society in the world is trying to teach religion as science is an important issue and a tell tail sign of a growing and disturbing trend.

That gay couples in this day and age can't get recognition isn't high on my list of priorities, but I can understand gay couples wanting it.

It is my belief we in the west are morally obligated to intervene and end Kim-Jong-Il's regime. This I think is only possible through military means. I also believe the anti-war protests from the left have made this impossible for the near future.

No I'm thinking the fact that Kim Jong II's (he's second not first FYI) countries army is one of the largest in the world, he shares a border with china who may percieve an invasion as a threat, combined with the fact the border has the largest denisity of landmines, a potential nuclear aresnal and a williness to use them, the fact that the south Korean capital is 1,000 miles (well within convential weapons range) from the border, means that a war would be disasterous.

Is the left proud of this? It's bizarre that this movement only seem to care about small extra liberties for themselves yet completely blank attrocities in the 3rd world that don't involve America.
But I'm not here to argue. Just to make a point.
Stand up against real injustice in the world.
Kim-Jong-il's evil regime must end.

If you're not here to argue, don't post an a discussion forum. A war in Korea would be disasterous for the region, thats the reason the US hasn't invaded, combined with the fact it'd be a bloodbath.

mike65

the fact that the south Korean capital is 1,000 miles (well within convential weapons range) from the border, means that a war would be disasterous.

Eh? Try a 50 miles....

No-one gives North Korea much thought because its basicly invisible, its surely one of the worst places on the planet but no-one is about to invade as the leadership is just too darned nutziod. They might do nothing, they might blow everyone to kingdom come.

Mike.

Zombrex

fionntan wrote:

It is my belief we in the west are morally obligated to intervene and end Kim-Jong-Il's regime. This I think is only possible through military means.

Can I ask that the nuclear war heads be re-directed to your house when N.K retailates against a pre-emptive attack .. I've just painted the doors ... :rolleyes:

Seriously, attacking North Korea would result in millions, if not billions of deaths. China would enter the war to defend a fellow communist country and straight away we have World War 3 on our hands and the end of life as we know it in a large portion of the habital world.

fionntan wrote:

This I think is only possible through military means. I also believe the anti-war protests from the left have made this impossible for the near future.

And I believe that the war mongoring of Bush/Blair have made people such as yourself believe that pre-emptive military assaults are both acceptable and feasible in situations like this. Neither is true. Imagine the disaster that has been the Iraq "liberation" mulitplied by every atomic weapon on the planet and you are getting close to the disaster attackin N.K would be ...

fionntan

Why must this get back once again to Bush and Blair?

Okay I admit that war there would be a blood bath.
You're probably right on not attacking North Korea, it's just when I start ranting about this I do get carried away and for that I apologise. But the West should announce itself as an enemy of it most definetly.

And yes I agree there is tyranny in other places in the world, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Syria etc. But N. Korea is a much worse than all these places and as such it should be highlighted.
But my main point here is just the sheer ignorance paid towards these and their huge human rights abuses, while most people are up in arms about much smaller human rights issues in the west.

Name one gay rights group in the Middle East? Does one even exist?
Why is Intelligent Design such a big deal when state-back ethic cleansing of blacks was carried out in Sudan?

Alot of this has to do with racism and not treating the third world like adults and condemming them for their wrongs.

People really, really need to get their priorities straightened out.

Zombrex

fionntan wrote:

And yes I agree there is tyranny in other places in the world, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Syria etc. But N. Korea is a much worse than all these places and as such it should be highlighted.
But my main point here is just the sheer ignorance paid towards these and their huge human rights abuses, while most people are up in arms about much smaller human rights issues in the west.

Er, sorry but what are you talking about ... the human rights abuses in N.K are very well know, despite the fact that it is one of the most secret countries in the world, and pretty much every country in the Western world is opposed to the regiem. In fact you have to go a long long way (probably to the Communist party in China) to find anyone who supports or even defends North Korea. Type "North Korea human rights abuses" into Google and you get 5 million hits

I am not really sure what the point of your post is ... where in hell did you get the idea that people were ignoring or don't care about North Korea? Most human rights organisations have whole sections on N.K

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=asia&c=nkorea
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/prk-summary-eng

black_jack

fionntan wrote:

Why must this get back once again to Bush and Blair?

Well er who are you expecting you to do your dirty work? Switzerland?

Okay I admit that war there would be a blood bath.
You're probably right on not attacking North Korea, it's just when I start ranting about this I do get carried away and for that I apologise. But the West should announce itself as an enemy of it most definetly.

And er they have, "axis of evil anyone" Just saying "you're not a country you're a very naughty boy" won't fix anything. What do you suggest. Pratically. Seeing as you've been argued down from full scale invasion to diplomatic dressing down in the space of a post or two.

And yes I agree there is tyranny in other places in the world, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Syria etc. But N. Korea is a much worse than all these places and as such it should be highlighted.

Well yes but who caused the military coup who lead to the rising of Sadam? Er the CIA in the 50s? Who ignored Sadam's brutal regieme while it was killing hundreds of thousands, er successive US regiemes, cause they were buying oil.

Ditto with N. Korea, and it is highlighted. Extensively. Hell they even made a film about it, using puppets.

But my main point here is just the sheer ignorance paid towards these and their huge human rights abuses, while most people are up in arms about much smaller human rights issues in the west.

Because invariably people are more concerned about issues which affect them directly. Why else do you think fuel protests occur? When the cost of the war directly affects them. Anti War protestors objected to the reasons of the war they felt the war would hurt the Iraq people and was not being done in their best interest. Civilian death toll in Iraq is running into 25,000 plus since the war started. Suggesting that liberals don't care about Nth Korea, is just laughable. Do you really think Kim Jung Sung is going to be affected by a socialist workers march down O'Connell st?

Name one gay rights group in the Middle East? Does one even exist?

Well no, and while we're giving funding to Religious dictatorships who are funded with oil we're unlikely to see this change.

Why is Intelligent Design such a big deal when state-back ethic cleansing of blacks was carried out in Sudan?

Because the backward slide into religious fundamentalism means we're unlikely to see any progress on issues like Sudan. Because people will start thinking "it's god's will".

Alot of this has to do with racism and not treating the third world like adults and condemming them for their wrongs.


People really, really need to get their priorities straightened out.

So essentially in your opinion we need to stop worrying about the religious, and economic reasons for the Sudanese geoncide, and get on with the finger pointing.

Seriously whats your point?

You've firing around a scattergun that Nth Korean is evil and it's liberal's fault, not in fact a variety of reasons. Now we're racism for not treating the third world as adults. Tell me what is your "unracist" proposal. And what is racist about the current policies. I'm very curious.

mike65 wrote:

Eh? Try a 50 miles....

Y'know I think I was getting mixed up with Taiwan and mainland china, I knew it was absurdly close, and had 100 miles in my head but thought that was absurdly close. However I discovered I was going in the wrong direction. In fact the 1,000 miles is more accurate a description of the distance of the entire country.

I can gain some small comfort in the fact I'm still more aware of issues on this country than the OP.

Sleepy

I have some sympathy for the OP's post. It could, in my opinion at least be a sign of our self-centred times that we allow such evils to go on in this world. In our grandparents time, they stood up to the Nazi regime and yes, it was a bloodbath. Sometimes that's the cost of a better world.

Hobbes

mike65 wrote:

Eh? Try a 50 miles....

No-one gives North Korea much thought because its basicly invisible, its surely one of the worst places on the planet but no-one is about to invade as the leadership is just too darned nutziod. They might do nothing, they might blow everyone to kingdom come.

Mike.

The rest of the world is kind of invisible to them and it is intresting to see how the mindset is there. Got a documentry from NK (its in Korean) and it was the day to day life of koreans there who are friendly to the party (two pictures of Kim Jong Il on the wall cleaned everyday). Even the schoolkids were singing songs like "Death to the Americans". The mindset really believes that the US is a worse place then NK and that North Korea if it came to a war would beat them.

So a war to free them (like Iraq :rolleyes:) is hardly going to work as the mindset has been fed into a couple of generations.

Btw the US prefers the status Quo as it makes insane amounts of money from South Korea on military contracts. SK has the most number of landmines in the world and the majority of them are still in US warehouses.

Maskhadov

North Korean human rights. Why don't people care?

Because it is a country far away with a media black out and we cant find out what is REALLY happening in there.

fionntan

Okay as I said at the beginning I'm not great with with words and before I got in to ideals I should have simply specified:
North Korea is number one example of human rights abuses in the world by any government.
As much as people disagree, this does not dominate world news in the way that it should. With most of us concentrating on only western faults.
Do people agree with this?

Er the CIA in the 50s? Who ignored Sadam's brutal regieme while it was killing hundreds of thousands, er successive US regiemes, cause they were buying oil.
Ditto with N. Korea, and it is highlighted. Extensively. Hell they even made a film about it, using puppets.

Look at this quote. I'm not saying it's wrong. But I'm saying your anger is not directed here at who it should be directed at. Saddam and Kim Jong-il's killings are their own fault. Full stop. America are hypocritical of course (just as we all are), but not the main source to blame.
See my point here? Large crimes of the third (and possibly second) world are ignored for smaller crimes of the West.

Also I thought that film was pro-war in the end?

What do I propose about North Korea? Concentration on dismantling of the nuclear weapons is number one aim. What does concentration mean? Well a couple of years ago it's oil supply was cut off due to the development of these weapons. North Korea needs this oil for it's huge military force (25% of it's budget goes towards this, for America it's around 3%). This leads N. Korea backed seriously against the wall.
Another option is talks being held between the power blocs of that area. Russia, Japan, China and America (yes yes not part of the East but as the only superpower it's essential they're in it). Nuclear weapons in North Korea are a problem for all these countries.

My over-reaction on an immediate attack on North Korea came from my belief that these nuclear weapons are a serious, serious threat to us. But it still doesn't excuse coming out with not thought out statement.

You wanted my opinion on what to do. That would be it. Maybe it would work, (at least I hope it would), but then again it's easier to be an idealist than a politician.

What are anyone else's views on what to do? Leaving it as it is I don't believe should be an option.

Zombrex

fionntan wrote:

As much as people disagree, this does not dominate world news in the way that it should. With most of us concentrating on only western faults.
Do people agree with this?

Sigh ...

First of all, there is no "news" from North Korea .. it is one of the most secretive governments in modern history. It is almost impossible for any news of current events to get out of the country. The general desperation of the country has been well documented, but that isn't "news".

I am not quite sure what you expect, but personally I would find it rather silly if the RTE News ended every night with "And finally, in case anyone out there still doesn't know, North Korea is still a very bad place to live"

fionntan wrote:

What do I propose about North Korea? Concentration on dismantling of the nuclear weapons is number one aim. What does concentration mean? Well a couple of years ago it's oil supply was cut off due to the development of these weapons. North Korea needs this oil for it's huge military force (25% of it's budget goes towards this, for America it's around 3%). This leads N. Korea backed seriously against the wall.

Oil sanctions have never worked, they just harm the population of a country. You would have millions freezing to death due to heating oil shortages long before you see the military missing a drop.

fionntan wrote:

What are anyone else's views on what to do? Leaving it as it is I don't believe should be an option.

Why? Who says there is an answer? If Iraq has taught the western world nothing else it is that doing something, anything, is not always better than doing nothing.

At the moment there is very little that can be done with N.K. That is just the way it is.

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

First of all, there is no "news" from North Korea .. it is one of the most secretive governments in modern history.

Not entirely true. Better word would be "there is no real news from North Korea". They do have a news site, which is kind of funny as they go to town on the Japanese yet the server is hosted by Japan.

I wouldn't treat it as a real news site but does give you an idea of the slant that is on stuff that is reported in NK.

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

Zombrex

Hobbes wrote:

Not entirely true. Better word would be "there is no real news from North Korea".

True ... the "news" from Korea is propaganda slanted in favour of the government .. it is very hard for outside journalist to report on the real situation in N.K

bonkey

fionntan wrote:

What do I propose about North Korea? Concentration on dismantling of the nuclear weapons is number one aim.

WHile its a noble sentiment, I suspect that NK will never give up its nukes, just in case China isn't always gonna back it in a conventional fight.

Well a couple of years ago it's oil supply was cut off due to the development of these weapons. North Korea needs this oil for it's huge military force (25% of it's budget goes towards this, for America it's around 3%). This leads N. Korea backed seriously against the wall.

For someone complaining about it being an oppressive regime, you seem to be very keen on heaping more misery upon the common N.Korean people. You do realise that they will be the first to be deprived of resources, not the military? Its convenient to pass the blame for that onto KJI, but you're taking this action because he's so oppressive, and all the action is doing is giving him the motive and means to make that oppression worse.

Kill to cure seems like a bad way of dealing with this particular problem.

I'm currently reading Wild Swans - a book about China. China, for quite some time, has been improving as a place to live, but before that all started, it was pretty outstandingly bad too. And they had nukes.

Did the West embargo the Chinese? Nope - they started a long, slow process of helping to make China a very, very rich country. Strange. Rather than damning the monsters, they helped them - slowly at first, but then more and more as time progressed. And they made them keep their hands off Taiwan at the same time.

Sure, the regime take the lions share of the wealth that gets poured in, but slowly, slowly things have improved (at least somewhat) for the common people.

So, to recap...sanctions hit the people first, and the system second, aid helps the system first and the people second. So hurt the people a lot, or help them a little in order to try and make their life better in the long run?

Tough choice.

As for the news....so little of it comes out of NK, and when it does, its generally reported. When that trainyard explosion happened a couple of months ago, I recall seeing some specials within a week giving the history of the current regime, as well as something on the living conditions etc.

Given an excuse to become topical, the media will spend some time on NK. But what more can they do?

black_jack

fionntan wrote:

Okay as I said at the beginning I'm not great with with words and before I got in to ideals I should have simply specified:
North Korea is number one example of human rights abuses in the world by any government.
As much as people disagree, this does not dominate world news in the way that it should. With most of us concentrating on only western faults.
Do people agree with this?

Over beckham's latest affairs? Or football? Or over human rights abuse closer to home which directly effect us.

Maybe its the simple fact that you can't demand that others clean their house, while ignoring the mess you're living in.

Look at this quote. I'm not saying it's wrong. But I'm saying your anger is not directed here at who it should be directed at. Saddam and Kim Jong-il's killings are their own fault. Full stop. America are hypocritical of course (just as we all are), but not the main source to blame.

And again, who put Saddam in place? Who armed and funded Saddam for decades, ignoring the route to power and history of a conflict ensures it's going to repeat itself. Just because you've suddenly woken up and realised these regiemes are bad, doesn't mean others haven't been banging on about them for decades, when Americans were either turning a blind eye or actively supporting these sort of regiemes.

See my point here? Large crimes of the third (and possibly second) world are ignored for smaller crimes of the West.

Yes, yes they are, and thats the liberals fault?

What do I propose about North Korea? Concentration on dismantling of the nuclear weapons is number one aim. What does concentration mean? Well a couple of years ago it's oil supply was cut off due to the development of these weapons.
North Korea needs this oil for it's huge military force (25% of it's budget goes towards this, for America it's around 3%). This leads N. Korea backed seriously against the wall.

Again, the case for sanctions means the people who will be hurt will be the ordinary people, far before the miltary. Ten years in Iraq proved that.

Another option is talks being held between the power blocs of that area. Russia, Japan, China and America (yes yes not part of the East but as the only superpower it's essential they're in it). Nuclear weapons in North Korea are a problem for all these countries.

You may have missed this, but last week, at the last minute Nth Korea pulled out of disarmenent talks.

My over-reaction on an immediate attack on North Korea came from my belief that these nuclear weapons are a serious, serious threat to us. But it still doesn't excuse coming out with not thought out statement.

You wanted my opinion on what to do. That would be it. Maybe it would work, (at least I hope it would), but then again it's easier to be an idealist than a politician.

What are anyone else's views on what to do? Leaving it as it is I don't believe should be an option.

No offence you're being an idealist and not a politican.

RedPlanet

fionntan

Where in the world did you come up with 3% for US military spending?
It's more like 43%!
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#USMilitarySpending

And big bad North Korea spends just 1% of it's budget on military.

scroll down to the chart, it's fairly shocking.

bonkey

Thats 43% of the world total expenditure on military. The 3% was a reference to the percentage of American GDP I would imagine.

mike65

Hobbes wrote:

Got a documentry from NK (its in Korean) and it was the day to day life of koreans there who are friendly to the party (two pictures of Kim Jong Il on the wall cleaned everyday). Even the schoolkids were singing songs like "Death to the Americans". The mindset really believes that the US is a worse place then NK and that North Korea if it came to a war would beat them.

Is that film called "A State of Mind" by any chance? I saw it on BBC4 last year, facinating and a bit frightening too.

Mike.

Hobbes

mike65 wrote:

Is that film called "A State of Mind" by any chance? I saw it on BBC4 last year, facinating and a bit frightening too.

Mike.

Seen that one. Nope its not that one. I'll dig out the name again. Its a NK documentry on a party favoured family.