STT No Brainers?

JuliusFranco

Played two 6 handed PPP / VC STTs last night.

Both pay top 2 - 66%, 33% (ish)
Starting stacks 2000, initial blinds 20/40

First Game: Very first hand, I'm dealt AK , folded around to me in the C/O, I raise it to 120, BB goes all in with pocket 99. I call and hide the screen (can't watch coin flips anymore )

Second Game (about 5 seconds later): Second hand in, I've 99, utg+2, folded around and i raise it to 120.
Button calls.
Flop comes TTx with 2 clubs, I bet 300. Button goes all in for. I figure him for 2 over cards and a flush draw. I've got a 9c. I call and hide the screen

How did I play these? (Assuming my reads were correct).

First hand in a MTT I probably wouldn't bother calling. But with STTs like these I reckon they're auto calls.
Any thoughts?...

ianmc38

Scenario 1 I'd probably fold, as i dont think a double up that early on is essential to win a STT. I'd be more likey to call in a MTT to get a decent stack early so that i can play a bit looser.

Scenario 2 I'd probably call. Though i'd probably be depressed when he turns over A/10

Dub13

You hide the screen.... , were do you look...?

Marq

JuliusFranco wrote:

How did I play these? (Assuming my reads were correct).

I don't understand the question. if your reads were correct, then so were your calls. There's no "play" in these situations. someone went all-in at a point in the hand where we have very little information and you called. Are you expecting someone to tell you that although your read of being ahead is correct, you should fold?

NickyOD

1. If its aturbo STT call.
2. You overbet the flop but its an easy call.

Lafortezza

JuliusFranco wrote:

I call and hide the screen (can't watch coin flips anymore )

I call and hide the screen

How did I play these? (Assuming my reads were correct).

Do you physically wince and cover the screen with your hands?

Marq

I use post-its. that's so I can raise "on the blind."

NickyOD

Marq wrote:

I use post-its. that's so I can raise "on the blind."

Lafortezza may make us laugh but you make us groan. :rolleyes:

ianmc38

Well if scenario 1 is a turbo STT then its a totally different kettle of fish. But you must be mad to play those anyway cos they're pure garbage. Turbo heads up perhaps but even that is stupid.

JuliusFranco

Hi

Thanks for the reply lads

These games were not turbo / speed - I avoid these like the plague!

Assuming my reads are correct in both scenarios then I'm getting all my chips in on the first hand of a STT on 50/50s

Is there a case for not getting involved in such situations so early in a STT?

And yes, I sometimes phisically hide the screen with my hands and look away. If not I might flick the screen over to another game or leave the room or just cover my eyes!

ianmc38

JuliusFranco wrote:

Is there a case for not getting involved in such situations so early in a STT?

For me yes. I'm not sure if it makes sense to go all-in on a 50-50 this early in a STT. That means that if you were to have a situation like this in every tourney that you would go out 1st hand 50% of the time. That speaks for itself. Would be a poor decision IMHO.

ianmc38

And placing in 50% of STTs(best case scenario base don discussion above) isn't a good enough turnover rate(for me personally, i'm sure this differs from person to person).

JuliusFranco

go out on the first hand 50% of the time

so, of the other 50% of the time, what percentage of these games would I need to win to make money in the long run??

ianmc38

Well if you win 25% of your STTs you'll break even.

ie 4 $10 STTs + $1

1 Win and 3 4th or worse finishes - $45
2 Win and 2 4th or worse finishes - $90

So a 50% win ratio will double your money.

However, based on what we said your best case scenario of betting all-in on a 50-50 is that you win come the end of the game. As we all know in poker, doubling up on the 1st hand is no guarantee of a place let alone a win.

Personally I'd hope to place 70%+ of the time, with anywhere between 35-50% win ratio.

Marq

NickyOD wrote:

Lafortezza may make us laugh but you make us groan. :rolleyes:

As long as I have some effect on you Nicky, I'd be crushed if you just ignored me.

Lafortezza

NickyOD wrote:

Lafortezza may make us laugh but you make us groan. :rolleyes:

But, I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to ****in' amuse you?

The Snapper

JuliusFranco wrote:

Hi


Is there a case for not getting involved in such situations so early in a STT?

Early play in stt's is very loose so you should play tight until level 3 . At this point usually 2/3 players are gone and the remaining players tighten up.
So yes there is defo a case for not taking on coinflip situations in hand 1 and 2 of level1. I definately fold to both all-in bets and take a better edge when it comes along

mewso

lafortezza wrote:

But, I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to ****in' amuse you?

It's ok Luke you're not funny. Nicky just needed a lead in line to slag Marq.

Lafortezza

Nobody should need a lead line to slag Marq, he's easy pickings. You did get the film reference though Muso didn't you?

Culchie

Sounds like De Niro?

califano

JuliusFranco wrote:

I sometimes phisically hide the screen with my hands and look away.

do you play in live games? what do you do to curb this reaction in a live game!.
in my world i deal with animals. they may seem dumb to an educated guy like you, but make no mistake, these animals are very cunning, and they sense weakness!.

mewso

lafortezza wrote:

Nobody should need a lead line to slag Marq, he's easy pickings. You did get the film reference though Muso didn't you?

It was Herbie goes Bananas. O.k. Joe Pesci in Goodfellas.

califano

100 bonus points for the film reference of my last sentence!!

mewso

Did you leave out the word doctor in the quote to make it more difficult?

JuliusFranco

rounders123 wrote:

in my world i deal with animals. they may seem dumb to an educated guy like you, but make no mistake, these animals are very cunning, and they sense weakness!.

ace ventura pet detective? babe pig in the city?
I'm thinking De Niro tho...

that's it!
it's Rocky and Bullwinkle!

rounders123 wrote:

do you play in live games? what do you do to curb this reaction in a live game!.

in live games i might just look look at the celling when the cards are on their backs...
when playing online i sometimes just say feck it and take the laptop of her back and pump harder

Daithio

ianmc38 wrote:

And placing in 50% of STTs(best case scenario base don discussion above) isn't a good enough turnover rate(for me personally, i'm sure this differs from person to person).

Placing in 50% of STTs is an amazing turnover for anybody. Placing in even 40% is well above average.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

Placing in 50% of STTs is an amazing turnover for anybody. Placing in even 40% is well above average.

I dont think its possible to place in over 50% of stts (in the long run)

kpnuts

Without any previous knowledge of specific opponents etc, both these scenarios are auto-folds for me... I have been playing 10-seater STTs for just over a year, I'm still relatively new to 6-seaters, but here are my thoughts...

Situation A more clear-cut... I can fold and have 1,880 chips from my starting stack or take what is likely to be at best a 50-50 shot .... only possible justification for calling, in my view, is if the all-in pre-flop reraiser is a known moron who regularly takes wildly cavalier gambles early in tourneys with AJ/AQ etc. Even if it is a known moron making this play, however, I probably still fold and wait for better spot.

Situation B ... villain has 3 possible hands... against OVERPAIR i'm drawing to 2 outs; against AcKc/AcQc etc i am as close to 50/50 shot as makes no difference; against AT/JT etc i am drawing to 2 outs (plus runner-runner flush outs likely as if villain had played AT/JT etc to raise, his cards are more than likely soooted and obviously not clubs).... so again best-case scenario, unless I'm up against a total bluff, is a 50-50 shot and I am folding here because 1,580 chips is plenty to play with for the 3rd hand of the tourney and survival is key in the early levels of any STTs... plenty of time to build + bully in middle and latter stages.

Perhaps many of you will think this play is too conservative, but my long-term STT in-the-money stats are very close to 40% and that is how I would be thinking during Level 1

kpnuts

p.s. in relation to Situation 2, I agree with Nicky that you probably overbet the flop, telling your opponent that you certainly DON'T have any 10, opening up the possibility of a total bluff on his part (smaller pp or overcards that ain't necessarily clubs, expecting to knock you off your hand, if he's a quality player... not sure what stakes you are playing) I prefer a bet of maybe half to 2/3 of the pot here, I think it looks stronger... and just as another afterthought, I wouldn't usually bother raising pre-flop in your position with 99 in the opening orbit, I would prefer to limp in, obviously happy to call a raise of up to 150 or so, but really playing the 99 for flopped-set value more than anything else.

ianmc38

"I dont think its possible to place in over 50% of stts (in the long run)"

I disagree. I think it's very possible to place in 50% of $5-$20 STTs.

Also the point i was making was that this is the best case scenario if he's going to be involved in a 50-50 1st hand ie his max possible STT placings will be 50%, with 5 players to knock out still.

Iago

I've placed in 42% of my last 3,000 STT's at $25 level, with 37% of those placings in 1st place. Mind you these are all 9 Seat STTs, I don't play the 6 seaters. I think it would be very hard for me to dramatically improve on this, and in fact I think it'll be very difficult for me to maintain this level over an extended period of say 10-20K STT's.

If you're placing in over 50% of your STTs and with a high % of 1sts then you're doing exceptionally well.

In relation to the hands, the first hand I would call but more because of a time situation that anything else. Generally speaking 50% of the time I've now got 4K and I'd have to try really hard to not finish in the money. The other 50% of the time I've saved myself time in trying to make the money which has an implied benefit in terms of earnings per hour. It's better to bust out early than spend an hour playing a game and finish just outside the money, imho.

For the 2nd scenario I'd of limped in with the 99 and bet half the pot to find out where I was, it's a difficult one to call but I think a continuation bet was the only option with the action that precedeed it. I don't like the call but I think it was nessecery in that situation.

ianmc38

Well i'd say without being able to give exact stats that I place in roughly 50% of STTs overall. My win % isn't as high as I'd like though as I'd say i only win 1/3rd of those in which i place. I'd generally play 4 $10 STTs a night on PPP and generally place in at least 2 of them. I cant rememeber the last time ive played four straight without placing. When i've gone up to $20 this % has dropped slightly, so I just personally(having only played online poker about 8months) feel more comfortable on $10 tables. My big problem is MTTs, i always seem to get around the bubble area and then get knocked out which is endlessly frustrating.