A Bluff Too Far! (Hand history)

Mark J

This plonk has bluffed consistenly through the game,
showing EVERYONE how great he is.

this is what happens to people like him.


Real Money Ring Game
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Sunset Trail 3451633-74449 Holdem No Limit $2/$4
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Hand Start.
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Seat 1 : L`Amateur has $437.23
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Seat 2 : soldierboy has $304.50
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Seat 3 : stud23 has $164.83
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Seat 4 : porky p has $553.40
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Seat 5 : sotogrande has $379.29
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : Seat 6 : 3TJ has $318
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : sotogrande is the dealer.
[Oct 1 15:00:35] : 3TJ posted small blind.
[Oct 1 15:00:36] : L`Amateur posted big blind.
[Oct 1 15:00:36] : Game [74449] started with 6 players.
[Oct 1 15:00:36] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 1 15:00:36] : Seat 1 : L`Amateur has 5s Kh
[Oct 1 15:00:41] : soldierboy called $4
[Oct 1 15:00:42] : stud23 called $4
[Oct 1 15:00:44] : porky p called $4 and raised $16
[Oct 1 15:00:44] : sotogrande folded.
[Oct 1 15:00:48] : 3TJ folded.
[Oct 1 15:00:54] : L`Amateur called $16
[Oct 1 15:01:04] : soldierboy called $16
[Oct 1 15:01:06] : stud23 called $16
[Oct 1 15:01:06] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 1 15:01:06] : Board cards [Kd Js 8s]
[Oct 1 15:01:09] : L`Amateur checked.
[Oct 1 15:01:09] : soldierboy checked.
[Oct 1 15:01:10] : stud23 checked.
[Oct 1 15:01:14] : porky p bet $32
[Oct 1 15:01:20] : L`Amateur called $32
[Oct 1 15:01:31] : soldierboy folded.
[Oct 1 15:01:31] : stud23 folded.
[Oct 1 15:01:32] : Dealing turn.
[Oct 1 15:01:32] : Board cards [Kd Js 8s 2h]
[Oct 1 15:01:36] : L`Amateur bet $64
[Oct 1 15:01:39] : porky p called $64
[Oct 1 15:01:39] : Dealing river.
[Oct 1 15:01:39] : Board cards [Kd Js 8s 2h 9h]
[Oct 1 15:01:49] : L`Amateur bet $64
[Oct 1 15:01:51] : porky p called $64 and raised $373.40 and is All-in
[Oct 1 15:02:06] : It's your turn.
[Oct 1 15:02:06] : L`Amateur has 10 seconds to respond.
[Oct 1 15:02:13] : L`Amateur called $257.23 and is All-in
[Oct 1 15:02:13] : Showdown!
[Oct 1 15:02:13] : Seat 1 : L`Amateur has 5s Kh
[Oct 1 15:02:15] : Seat 4 : porky p has Tc Ad
[Oct 1 15:02:15] : porky p has High Card : Ace
[Oct 1 15:02:15] : Seat 1 : L`Amateur has 5s Kh
[Oct 1 15:02:15] : L`Amateur has Pair: Kings
[Oct 1 15:02:15] : L`Amateur wins $913.46 with Pair: Kings
[Oct 1 15:02:24] : Hand is over.

Culchie

You called 5*BB with K 5 ?

I'm not able to get my head into this crazy Cash Game mode, and this is at $2/$4 level !

No wonder bankrolls need to be very large.

Lafortezza

K5o is an interesting call on that board and with that action.

Mark J

Culchie wrote:

You called 5*BB with K 5 ?

believe me, you weren`t there. you didn`t see his play.

i actually put him on a very small pair.

i wanted to see the flop then fold. seen my K and knew he was gonaa bet/call all the way and then go all-in.

i know it might seem like lunacy but my *throw the rule book out the window*
Gus Hansen stylee is very profitable to me as late.



(awaiting, "wait til you come tumbling down" type comments!)

Tackle

Culchie wrote:

You called 5*BB with K 5 ?

I'm not able to get my head into this crazy Cash Game mode, and this is at $2/$4 level !

No wonder bankrolls need to be very large.

I think Mark was looking to hit on the flop and call down no matter what. You come across guys like his villain from time to time who play so fast they can't slow down even when they know they're beat, they can't facing loosing a pot, at any cost. Brave call, shows the rest of the table you've got a good set of balls.

Lafortezza

How did you put him on a very small pair? If he had 33-77, he's not going to risk it unless he just regularly ignores the flop. If he has 22 then you lose.

Culchie

nope, no comments from me.

I'm not a cash player, so will need to learn the lingo to engage in that type of game, so I'm not in a position to judge.

Just underlines the importance of bankroll management though if this is a typical scenario.

I'll stick to the tourneys for a while I think.

Mark J

lafortezza wrote:

How did you put him on a very small pair? If he had 33-77, he's not going to risk it unless he just regularly ignores the flop. If he has 22 then you lose.

how did i put him on a small pair?
from observing previous bets he made through the game.

he was willing to risk it his stack consistently with nothing.
(and then showing everyone at the table)

he was bluffing very often and showing everyone how great he was at taking down pot after pot with nothing.
may i point out, you were not at the table.

if you don`t know who the mug at your table is after half an hour, it`s you!

Mark J

Tackle wrote:

I think Mark was looking to hit on the flop and call down no matter what.

Mark J wrote:

[Oct 1 15:02:06] : It's your turn.
[Oct 1 15:02:06] : L`Amateur has 10 seconds to respond.

i almost folded but his consistent all-ins and then showing his bluffs made me click the button a second before time.

Mark J

lafortezza wrote:

he's not going to risk it unless he just regularly ignores the flop.

Christ, didn`t you read he was bluffing every 2nd hand and showing!!!

course he was gonna risk it. he did. to his own detriment.

Mark J

Tackle wrote:

I think Mark was looking to hit on the flop and call down no matter what. You come across guys like his villain from time to time who play so fast they can't slow down even when they know they're beat, they can't facing loosing a pot, at any cost. Brave call, shows the rest of the table you've got a good set of balls.

Tackle, my man, you got it in one.

if i didn`t get a K on the flop i was gone,
(or highly unlikely, a set of 5s),
i would`ve caught him sooner or later anyway. guaranteed.

Culchie

Thats a grand .... just like that.

I think it's mad stuff going on, no wonder fellahs like HJ clean up if this is the craic going on at the bloody $2/$4 level.

This isn't a dig at your play Mark, as you say, you were at the table, but if anyone looked at that hand history, you'd swear it was at the play money tables.

Mark J

Culchie wrote:

Thats a grand .... just like that.

I think it's mad stuff going on, no wonder fellahs like HJ clean up if this is the craic going on at the bloody $2/$4 level.

This isn't a dig at your play Mark, as you say, you were at the table, but if anyone looked at that hand history, you'd swear it was at the play money tables.

it`s not real money, it`s on the computer screen!

i don`t think ye understand how this fella was playing -
YOU HAD TO BE THERE!

if he had a hand, he`d of checked-call all the way to the river and then pot-sized bet.

i know it looks like lunacy but I KNEW he had nothing from the way he was betting.

peeko

nice result! i hate playing peeps like that with semi decent hands. I think I've been stung too many times by the villian actually catching a hand! Either way nice payoff

Culchie

What site is that?

Mark J

tx, peeko.

Bankroll management now in full effect!!!

have cashed out and still have decent BR.

Mark J

Culchie wrote:

What site is that?

VC.

Ste05

Nice win, and you seemed to have done it based solely on a really good read on your opponent, which is fine
but I must say, calling a raise with K5o is never a good play IMHO, no matter who your opponent is, his money will always be available and I'm sure you'll get a better spot then this one.. especially as there were 2 other callers as well, or were they also just looking to hit a card and then go all the way????
But this style of play seems to be working out for now, so keep it up....nice to see you're exercising some BR management now. Possibly a time to read an auld book?????? at the very least so you know what the other players are thinking.... I can guarantee at least 80% (a very conservative estimate) of the players at these levels know "book poker" and you're at a serious disadvantage not at least knowing what they're thinking, even if you don't want to use the strategies yourself??????

Tackle

Culchie wrote:

This isn't a dig at your play Mark, as you say, you were at the table, but if anyone looked at that hand history, you'd swear it was at the play money tables.

It was a great call based on his read. Alot of players don't have the balls to call down guys like these, they get bought out of almost every pot. The ones that do call them down, and spot the big all-in bluff when the villain has pushed his luck too far, are the ones that make the big money.

Culchie

I didn't say otherwise.

Culchie

Tackle wrote:

It was a great call based on his read. Alot of players don't have the balls to call down guys like these, they get bought out of almost every pot. The ones that do call them down, and spot the big all-in bluff when the villain has pushed his luck too far, are the ones that make the big money.

Actually, you know what, I've been thinking about this. I didn't want to say anything, because I didn't want to offend Mark J, and I still don't. However I just wouldn't be 'me' if I let this go, so I'll be true to myself if nothing else.

This is fecking crazy play. If it was live and you can see the other guy drooling, or his eyes glaze over, his knees knocking, scratching his nose, or listening to and breaking a friggin oreo biscuit, then fair enough, trust your read if you want to.
But this is a PC screen with chips being transposed electronically from one place to another through the click of a mouse.
There is no way on earth you can 'read' a player like you have outlined above.
Let's face it, you decided to gamble this all the way to the finishing line, with near enough sweet FA. Yes the other guy was a lunatic, but that is besides the point.

There was a grand in the middle there. Real Money, not computer graphic chips, real money.

I've never MarkJ, so maybe I shouldn't give a toss, however 6 months ago, I hadn't met Big Bragon or Doc Farrell or plenty others, and they are all nice guys, and I'm sure MarkJ is as well, so I wish him well, not ill.

Playing cards like above hand history is bad news for Hero. It is not playing poker according to proven profitable principles and methods, it is downright gambling of the worst kind, it's just financial suicide, and financial suicide leads to a very unhappy life away from that 15" or 17" screen you are looking at.

Again, no offence is meant.

Lafortezza

I kind of agree with Culchies post above, the only thing is MarkJ's comments about how the Villain of the hand was bascically bluffing all the time and showing the table.
If MarkJ feels it's pretty likely that Villain is up to his old tricks again then calling all-in with top pair bad kicker might not be such a bad play.
The only thing is that
1) There are so many 2 pair/straight/TPbetter kicker hands that beat Hero right now, that it's a big gamble to call.
2) A clever loose aggressive player (which MarkJ doesn't believe the Villain is) will build his image like in the hand above, and then take every chip on the table when he actually hits a legitmate hand.

If MarkJ was in this situation x amount of times he has to be winning ~50% of the time for this call to be profitable. He thinks it is. Alot of other posters don't agree.

Mark J

"There was a grand in the middle there. Real Money, not computer graphic chips, real money." - it was my attempt at some dry wit.

Culchie, i know where your coming from and it`s 100% true.

no offence taken, your entitled to your opinion and to post it here like everyone else.
no problem man! i shouldn`t have put the HH up if i wasn`t expecting to have peoples comments on it.(and the lunacy of it all!!!)

as for Lafortezza`s comments on building a loose table image and then cleaning up.

i do it quite a lot myself, albeit, with a lot smaller pots! but this fella was a total loon.
i`m sure he thought he was Jeff Bridges outta "Fearless"!

if he had a hand i was goosed. point taken. but i cannot re-itterate anymore what this player was like.

if he was loose-aggressive and building a bad table image, he would caught me hook,line & sinker and i woulda prob put my head through my 15" or 17" screen!

Mark J

on another note :

met another loon last night. $1200 or so (can`t remember exactly) stack.

hadn`t got the money to take it all but got half it.
now i was in position for the rest!!!

waited and waited for a chance but someone else got there 1st.

all-in,all-in,all-in,all-in,all-in,all-in,all-in,
this fella never showed though but there is no way he`d big PPs all the time, so when i got my chance i took in or abouts half his stack.

if you want i`ll go and have a look for the HH if ye want.

Mark J

[Oct 1 15:01:49] : L`Amateur bet $64
[Oct 1 15:01:51] : porky p called $64 and raised $373.40 and is All-in

he could`ve folded but he was in too deep.
if i folded, i woulda lost all that money and he would`ve turned over his A high
(and the not the best kicker in the world) for all the table to see how brilliant he was.

Mark J

Culchie wrote:

There is no way on earth you can 'read' a player like you have outlined above.


Again, no offence is meant.

my "read" was based on the frequency of his all-in bets to buy people out of the pots and then show them that he had nothing.

Again, none taken. no prob!

Hectorjelly

Preflop you have enormous implied odds if you think he will go to the felt whether he hits the flop or not, Id still fold though as your hand is pretty bad and only has one high card; you also might get caught between another player and the maniac. You will only hit a king 1/6 of the time, so 5/6 of the time you lose your preflop investment, so not the most profitable of plays.

Once the flop comes up you are committed to the hand based on the villains description. Against maniacs sometimes you just have to close your eyes and back top or middle pair (sometimes bottom pair) with your entire stack.

I like the bet on the flop because it gives him the chance to make the bluff.

Tackle

[Oct 1 15:01:39] : Board cards [Kd Js 8s 2h 9h]

He raised so you have to give him credit for some type of hand, but with that board it's very unlikey he has a straight or two pair, unless it's KJ. He could have AA or made a set but I'd say with a very loose player who's always bluffing, you can't automatically give him credit for that. The only hand I would realistically be worried about is AK, KQ or KJ, but why would he go all in the river with that? The all in on the river says to me "I haven't got K high kicker, I've got a set or I'm bluffing" and based on his previous history it's way more likely to be a bluff. I would expect him to raise the turn if he had a set anyway. It looks crazy and it is but if you've seen one of these guys in action you can see how Mark made the (excellent)call. You don't get time for that level of analysis during the hand but it should be registering subconsciously, and you have to go with you're instincts.

"2) A clever loose aggressive player" - Yes then Mark would be in trouble, but he seems to have been right that this guy was just a plain old maniac.

Mark J

Hectorjelly wrote:

Preflop you have enormous implied odds if you think he will go to the felt whether he hits the flop or not, Id still fold though as your hand is pretty bad and only has one high card; you also might get caught between another player and the maniac. You will only hit a king 1/6 of the time, so 5/6 of the time you lose your preflop investment, so not the most profitable of plays.

Once the flop comes up you are committed to the hand based on the villains description. Against maniacs sometimes you just have to close your eyes and back top or middle pair (sometimes bottom pair) with your entire stack.

I like the bet on the flop because it gives him the chance to make the bluff.

i know i would`ve lost my pre-flop investment and maybe another one or two but this fella was crying out for someone to take his money.
i could have lost a lot of pre-flop investments but i would have doubled-up off him at some stage with a smaller stack(from my % of pre-flop losses)

i like the bet on the flop because it gives him the chance to make the bluff.

i like it too!

Ste05

bump

Mark J

Ste05 wrote:

bump

tx for that Ste05!

Ste05

Just thought we could have a proper debate, cos you had a good point I thought .......

Mark J

i couldn`t remember the exact details.

i thought it was K/7 when it was K/5.

and it was $913 i won, not $400 that i put in the other post.

i`m a total loooooon!!!'[~}'#][p;

DubTony

Big Stones Mark. Like Culchie, I only play tournaments and would find it hard to make that play ... so I guess I'm not cut out for cash games.

When I get my chance I take it. But then I'd need a decent hand before I could try it ...... Anyway, this happened about 2 hours ago. ...

The villain here had been stealing pots and pushing on the turn or river where everyone folded and he took the pot. He'd even re-raise pre-flop to push players out. Admittedly, he never showed and never used the chat box. He'd just lost a pot, $4000 of his chips, to two other guys who took him on and both held AQ to his A6. The flop was QQK. So we can assume he's not just a maniac but an idiot as well.

He's down to $550, I have $2400 and the blinds are still $10 and $20
I'm dealt KK.

VILLAIN limps in, folds to me, I raise to $60, folds around to BB who calls and the villain calls.

FLOP comes down 2,2,J. Both check it to me, I bet $100, BB folds, villain calls. Turn is a K. Villain checks, I check.
River is a 9 and he goes all in with his last $390. I call.
(As I called I laughed and considered how funny it would be if he had 92)
Cards turn over and he's showing a pair of 2s. :eek:

The hand played pretty much the way all the others had gone. Call and check but never raising. Just my luck to run into him when he had the nuts.