[article] End of the Road for Motorways

murphaph

End of the road for motorways

By Ben Lowry
blowry@belfasttelegraph.co.uk
24 September 2005

MOTORWAY plans for Northern Ireland, first drawn up decades ago, have been quietly abandoned, the Belfast Telegraph can reveal today.

The news contrasts with rapid motorway construction south of the border, where the Dundalk bypass, which was due to open six months early on Monday, looks set to be brought forward another 24 hours - to accomodate northern GAA fans heading to tomorrow's big match at Croke Park.

The opening marks the completion of a gleaming 52-mile motorway from Dundalk to Dublin, contrasting with the dangerous, twisty A1 north of the border which is due to be upgraded only to dual carriageway. An inquest in Newry yesterday looked at the deaths of three young people on the road last year.

The Department of Regional Development confirmed that Roads Service "has no proposals to build a new motorway - either an upgrade of an existing route or the building of a new route though fresh countryside - within the current planning period to 2015".

Motorway plans for the province drawn up in the 1950s and 60s have been replaced by a policy of building stretches of dual carriageway on the busiest sections of major routes.

The majority of the road between Ulster's two biggest cities, Belfast and Londonderry, is single carriageway, so that traffic can get caught behind tractors and lorries.

In the 13 years from 1962, when the Belfast-Lisburn section of the M1 became Ireland's first motorway, to the completion of the existing M2 in 1975, 66 miles of motorway opened. In the subsequent 30 years, as traffic has soared, only the 2.5 miles of the M3 bridge and M5 have been added to the network.

The province has now fallen far behind the Republic, which had no motorway until 1990 but has since opened 110 miles, with many more miles under construction or at an advanced stage of planning. As European funding dries up in the south, tolls help fund schemes. But no major political party in Northern Ireland advocates tolling to fund motorways.

Neil Greig, head of policy at the AA Motoring Trust, said: "The Republic of Ireland have made a decision that matches the European standards you would expect, and Northern Ireland obviously feel they do not need that standard of network.

"An incoming business looking at a map and not seeing blue lines indicating motorways will wonder why. Look at maps of Europe and you will see growing networks of blue lines."

Mr Greig also said there were safety reasons for new motorways - a study by academics at Trinity College Dublin found that motorways are, by a huge margin, the safest roads.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

the Republic, which had no motorway until 1990

Um, Naas bypass 1983-84.

murphaph

Indeed Victor, a boo-boo alright. The A1 really is looking like a second rate road now. The northerners will have to get their act together and get it sorted. It's statictically the deadliest road in NI.

Maskhadov

What a bad typo. Normally I would be pretty annoyed with those those fellas up north.

The north hasnt been taken care of in years. Whatever money they got back in the '60s is well gone and they havent got anything since. I dont think the British government gave anything more to the north, it just moved money away from infastructure to secuirty.

I dont know where they will get future money to fix the likes of the A1 and the rest because the british government cant be seen to favourise the north.

murphaph

I can see this coasting dangerously close to becoming political, so I'm gonna say nowt about how NI has used the billions sent to them by Britain.

Anyhoo,
Please God the authorities up there will be able to fast track the Newry bypass bypass (all those roundabouts on the curent Newry bypass are a PITA) cos it isn't due any time soon and sort out the crappy M1-A1 interchange. It's hideous.

Victor

1983

http://www.nra.ie/News/DownloadableDocumentation/file,1204,en.PDF

MrPudding

This is quite annoying. I always hoped they would finish the M2. It really pisses me off that you are on it for a while, then there is a big gap and then you get back on it again for a while. In saying that they have dualed most the the bit in between which is an huge improvement.

MrP

[EDIT] Where is the toll collected for the Dundalk bypass? I presume this is in addition to the toll already on the M1?

MrP

murphaph

MrPudding wrote:

This is quite annoying. I always hoped they would finish the M2. It really pisses me off that you are on it for a while, then there is a big gap and then you get back on it again for a while. In saying that they have dualed most the the bit in between which is an huge improvement.

If you look closely at the M2 where it becomes the M22 you will notice that the carriageways diverge and you can see slip roads that go nowhere. This was to be the point where the M2 would turn north towards Ballymena. I think it was to reach Coleraine.

MrPudding wrote:

Where is the toll collected for the Dundalk bypass? I presume this is in addition to the toll already on the M1?

Sort of. I don't know the exact numbers but it works like ths: Toll on M1 at Boyne bridge is €1, for example. NTR take 50c, government were taking the other 50c, now government takes 25c and the comsortium responsible for building the Dundalk Bypass takes 25c. Simple really but a great incentive to get the Dundalk bypass finished ahead of schedule.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

NTR take 50c, government were taking the other 50c, now government takes 25c and the comsortium responsible for building the Dundalk Bypass takes 25c. Simple really but a great incentive to get the Dundalk bypass finished ahead of schedule.

NTR had a temporary contract since the Drogheda Bypass opened, with the government getting most of the money and NTR getting a commission to cover staff, cash handling, etc.

Now the consortium, which I think includes NTR, takes responsibility for everything maintainence wise with them getting a lump of money for completing the road and again a commission.

murphaph wrote:

If you look closely at the M2 where it becomes the M22 you will notice that the carriageways diverge and you can see slip roads that go nowhere. This was to be the point where the M2 would turn north towards Ballymena. I think it was to reach Coleraine.

The consenus seems to be that Antrim-Ballymena will never be built as a motorway. I imagine the only way Ballymena-Coleraine will be built is if it continues on to Derry. I do wish the M22 would become the M2 though.

How extensive is the Toome Bypass? www.viamichelin.com just show it as a tiny dual-carriageway bypass of the village itself. Of course the only urban area between Toome and Derry is Dungiven.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

How extensive is the Toome Bypass?

Not very. 3.5kms with THREE at grade roundabouts according to this site. It's far far from the motorway standard road envisaged all those decades ago. Interesting that the EU part funded it!

Victor

Did they knock the exisiting bridge?

http://www.roadsni.gov.uk/scheme/Toome/Toome%20Bypass%20Leaflet%20@%20600dpi.pdf

is_that_so

MrPudding wrote:

[EDIT] Where is the toll collected for the Dundalk bypass? I presume this is in addition to the toll already on the M1?

MrP

At the toll on the M1. No new toll AFAIK for the bypass. Some of the current toll was used to pay for the Dundalk bypass.

murphaph

Global warming perhaps :eek:

/philip resists urge to make joke about the whole of NI sinking into the ocean

MrPudding

murphaph wrote:

If you look closely at the M2 where it becomes the M22 you will notice that the carriageways diverge and you can see slip roads that go nowhere. This was to be the point where the M2 would turn north towards Ballymena. I think it was to reach Coleraine.

When you get back onto the M2 at Ballymena, heading for Coleraine, you can see behind you where the join is supposed to be.

The road to Coleraine is not too bad now. It used to be very bad in places, single carriage way and lots of tractors. A large protion of it is now dualed and they have put in a couple of 2+1 sections which are very handy. There have been diversion for the past couple of months on the approah to Ballymoney from the Belfast side. Not sure what is going on there but I think it is more 2+1 sections.

Between this and the new Dundalk bypass it is almost becoming too easy to go home to cisit my mother.

MrP

murphaph

MrP,
That view behind you as you rejoin the M2 at J10 passing Ballymena may well change. It is planned to extend the M2 southbound for a bit. Details and pictures on this excellent site on Northern Ireland roads, which has quite a bit of interesting information.

Edit: More M2 info

MrPudding

murphaph wrote:

MrP,
That view behind you as you rejoin the M2 at J10 passing Ballymena may well change. It is planned to extend the M2 southbound for a bit. Details and pictures on this excellent site on Northern Ireland roads, which has quite a bit of interesting information.

Edit: More M2 info

In a very nerdy way that is actually quite interesting.

MrP

mackerski

The NI motorway programme was conceived and driven by the Stormont government. Direct rule killed the programme - different masters, different priorities. You have to admit, though, that the entire network as originally planned would have been utter overkill in the 70s. An obvious illustration of this is how well a simple dual carrieageway serves 2005 needs between Antrim and Ballymena.

Dermot

Chris_533976

I love the way they praise the Irish motorway system when its actually on the verge of collapse from volume, mismanagement and downright stupid design

murphaph

mackerski wrote:

The NI motorway programme was conceived and driven by the Stormont government. Direct rule killed the programme - different masters, different priorities. You have to admit, though, that the entire network as originally planned would have been utter overkill in the 70s. An obvious illustration of this is how well a simple dual carrieageway serves 2005 needs between Antrim and Ballymena.

Dermot

Indeed, the plans were completely OTT by today's standards, nevermind the 60's! The plans would have seen Belfast become one of the worst examples of urban motorway dominated cities in the UK. The place would have been a forest of concrete. It's a shame they never got their M11 built though. Fcukin politics

murphaph

Chris_533976 wrote:

I love the way they praise the Irish motorway system when its actually on the verge of collapse from volume, mismanagement and downright stupid design

To be fair, it's only the M50 that's like that. The bits of inter-urban motorway & dual carriageway we have are great, especially the M1.

Maskhadov

excellent point Murp. Most of the scandiavians countries just built dual carriagways. We went ahead with motorways. I think the network will be excellent once its all finished. Of course we need to seriously invest in rail though.

Where is the M11 ??

mackerski

Maskhadov wrote:

Where is the M11 ??

Either around Bray or from London to Cambridge, depending who you ask. The once-planned M11 in NI would have run from Lisburn to the border along the A1 route.

Dermot

murphaph

mackerski wrote:

The once-planned M11 in NI would have run from Lisburn to the border along the A1 route.

Would it have reached the border though? I always read it as going to Newry and given the highly political nature of NI roadbuilding at the time it wouldn't surprise me.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Would it have reached the border though? I always read it as going to Newry and given the highly political nature of NI roadbuilding at the time it wouldn't surprise me.

I'm sure it would have finished at the Newry and Mourne constituency border

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

Would it have reached the border though? I always read it as going to Newry and given the highly political nature of NI roadbuilding at the time it wouldn't surprise me.

If built at the time planned it would probably have stopped somewhat north of the border, though you'd imagine it would have bypassed Newry. In those days, remember, you had to stop at customs(*). Furthermore, the Republic didn't at the time have the spondoolicks to reciprocate(*), so the transition from motorway to cow-path would have had to happen on the northern side.

Dermot

(*) How times change

murphaph

mackerski wrote:

Furthermore, the Republic didn't at the time have the spondoolicks to reciprocate(*), so the transition from motorway to cow-path would have had to happen on the northern side.

Good point. How times change indeed.

Chris_533976

murphaph wrote:

To be fair, it's only the M50 that's like that. The bits of inter-urban motorway & dual carriageway we have are great, especially the M1.

Heh. You havent been to Cork recently

After a nice bit of motorway for about 100kms, you branch off to Cork and end up on a two way track for about half the way

Then try getting around Cork. The recently built ring road was stupidly built with 4 major roundabouts. They are fixing them with flyovers, but they shouldnt have had to be. They should have been built with flyovers in the firstplace - but instead they showed that common sense doesnt exist in this country

murphaph

Eh, I did say the bits of motorway & dual carriageway are good! I know there are huge gaps to be filled in the inter urban network!

All I'm gonna say about Cork is this: Jack Lynch tunnel has no toll, while Dubs get screwed with 2, soon to be three tolled roads and the Lynch Tunnel was amuch more ambitious project than either of the two existing toll charging structures in Dubalin!

Agree re: the southern ring road, but at least it's being upgraded. Is the dual carriageway to Ovens going to be extended all the way to Macroom?

Maskhadov

is the motorway down to cork really that crap ? Ive never ventured that far south. Do they intend to leave it like that or improve it someway ? The motorway to Dundalk is excellent. I was always under the illusion that this quality of motorway was going to be the norm around the key intercity motorway network.

mackerski

Maskhadov wrote:

is the motorway down to cork really that crap ?

It's mostly significant by its absence. So far, there's no blue south of Portlaoise. The motorway up to that point is pretty decent, though.

Dermot

Maskhadov

thats brutal mackerski. So it goes from motorway to cow pad south of portlaoise but I think they will eventually have a big blue line going all the way eventually

murphaph

Well, Cashel is Bypassed with a new dual carriageway and it's dual carriageway from Cork up to Watergrasshill isn't it? The Fermoy Bypass (tolled motorway) is under construction at the moment. If they'd only make a start on the big Y section from Portlaoise to Borris in Ossory and (is it?) Cullahill.

It'll be interesting to see how they modify the Nenagh bypass (which really should have been done properly!) to dual carriageway standard.

Wasn't it originally envisaged that the entire N4 would be dualled at some stage too? (though this has clearly been dropped)

mackerski

Most of the onward route to Cork is planned as high-quality dual carriageway rather than motorway. The (I think) Fermoy bypass is the only exception I know, and I think that there'll be a small stretch of M8 tying into the onward stretch from Portlaoise.

In theory, the difference shouldn't be all that great, since it's valid to post a 120 limit on a non-motorway. In practice, there are two chances that they actually will.

Dermot

Maskhadov

Thats a real balls. They have spent a packet on motorways here and they are going to be pretty crap to be honest.

Flukey

A recent trip of mine to Belfast showed the state of the roads there. As always was, it is still the case that when you cross the Ulster - Leinster border that the roads change. Of course nowadays it's the roads on the Leinster side that are far better. As you get near Belfast the roads improve a bit and there are some major upgrading projects going on, but further south you are coming off a motorway at Dundalk onto little country boreens. They need to get their act together, but things are improving in the new climate.

mackerski

Flukey wrote:

As always was, it is still the case that when you cross the Ulster - Leinster border that the roads change.

Damn straight - those Cavan roads are still a disgrace.

Dermot

Victor

Fermoy bypass will be the only motorway outside Leinster.

Chris_533976

..and will have a dirty great toll on it.

Money grabbing crap IMO. Noone will use it and they'll all go through Fermoy like theyre doing now. I sure as hell wont pay for it. Just another example of them fleecing us for everything they can get.

Sure, they have to build a dirty great aqueduct, but what people always forget is that if a project costs the government €100mil theyre gonna get about half that straight back in taxes.

D'Peoples Voice

Chris_533976 wrote:

..and will have a dirty great toll on it.

Money grabbing crap IMO. Noone will use it and they'll all go through Fermoy like theyre doing now. I sure as hell wont pay for it.

You're right Chris,
people heading to cork for a weekend,
spending over €100 a night for accomodation,
spending over €60 a night in restuarants,
another €50 on drink,
probably another €100 or more on shopping in the new Wilton shopping centre
and they think these people can afford €1.50 to spend on a toll!

It's crazy, just think how far €1.5 would go on other things,
it may pay for a car space for an hour,
buy a small bottle of coke in a shop
almost pay for a game of pool in a pub(that's €2 in most places)
it would buy your two kids a packet of jelly tots EACH

I think the €1.5 toll will be crippling for people,
at a time so many of our citizens are in debt.

Vorsprung

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

You're right Chris,
people heading to cork for a weekend,
spending over €100 a night for accomodation,
spending over €60 a night in restuarants,
another €50 on drink,
probably another €100 or more on shopping in the new Wilton shopping centre
and they think these people can afford €1.50 to spend on a toll!

It's crazy, just think how far €1.5 would go on other things,
it may pay for a car space for an hour,
buy a small bottle of coke in a shop
almost pay for a game of pool in a pub(that's €2 in most places)
it would buy your two kids a packet of jelly tots EACH

I think the €1.5 toll will be crippling for people,
at a time so many of our citizens are in debt.

how about people who commute?!

D'Peoples Voice

bigjimthefirst wrote:

how about people who commute?!

Ah yes, the classic Irish planning! Approve housing schemes miles away from where people are going to work.
Like in Rathcormac, how many of the people in those new houses will have to commute to cork city for a job, cloggin up the roads, yet planning permission was given for them!
My attitude would be, if people don't wish to choose to live close to where they work, then it's only right they pay for the road that brings them to work.:D
The problem lies in planning permission. If someone cannot specifically state how they can get to and from work, by public transport, then the county council should never be allowed grant planning permission for their house.
The net effect of this would be that over a long time, fewer back roads, and more money to spend on main roads, giving the country a fantastic motorway network! Will it happen, not a hope, councils will continue to grant planning permission ad hoc, leading to more back roads, and resources having to be split too finely across the network! Interestingly, just how big is Cork's road network? Might explain a lot for their main roads.

Victor

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Interestingly, just how big is Cork's road network? Might explain a lot for their main roads.

About 10,000km