Handguns in Ireland

FX Meister

I thought that all handguns were against the law in Ireland. I recently went to see a play called Adrenalin by a group called Semper Fi. THey have had loads of press recently. Anyway, according to magazine articles all the guns used on the show are real gunds firing blanks. How can this be if hand gunds are outlawed?

Semper Fi had a huge success with their show ‘Ladies & Gents’, set in the public toilets on Stephen’s Green. The public toilets are gone but Semper Fi are back with a dramatic off-site piece, ADRENALIN, an action-packed, ass-kicking, gun-toting homage to the ‘70s presented in a secret city location. Directed and designed by Karl Shiels and written by Paul Walker, this high-octane show revolves around a botched robbery, as hostages are taken and gang members start to crack during a post-robbery rendezvous. Trained stuntmen, live armoury and special effects all add to the mayhem, with sound by Ivan Birthistle and Vincent Doherty and a cast that includes Paschal Friel, Maria Lopez, Sarah Burke, Ciaran Kenny, Brian Mallon, Anthony Morris, Philip Judge and Enrique Foncesca (Custom House, Mon 19 Sept-Sat 1 Oct).

civdef

It's always been possible to possess handguns for "theatrical use".

If you browse around this forum a bit, you'll see that handguns can be licenced by sporting shooters now too under certain circumstances.

jaycee

real gunds firing blanks

Or ,

"Real " ..Blank firing guns..

A lot more likely ..!

jeffshc1

HA!
In Am-air-e-ka we can own gunds :eek: . Gourds too.

I'm sorry I had to say it.

woody

I'd say that are more than likely something similar to starter pistols, although blank firing guns (pistols) could be bought legally here two years ago the gun gallery in drogheda had them on display if I remember correctly, but his explanation that they were for gun dog training.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Sorry for bringing this thread back up but I wanted to point out to those that don't know... All guns are illegal if held without a licence. On the other hand, handguns were never illegal here. Alot of people own handguns/pistols, but unfortunately they are locked away. About 35 years ago the minister had a great idea, to take all pistols and high calibre rifles from their owners, for only a month,, something to do with the IRA, correct me if i'm wrong. Well those firearms are still locked away and I have no idea what will become of them.

civdef

You're a bit behind the times Iamxavier, have a look at the other posts here for details.

cantona

1972 was a 30 day seizure order, not due to the guns, but due to ammunition purchases.(Questions over where it was going, i.e someone who bought only 100 rounds per year was now buying 1000 per week).After 30 days when no-one made a big hulaboo they decided to keep it going until last year when many court cases were taken, result being we got our guns back.DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I knew there were ongoing court cases and all that, but I wasn't aware that the guns were handed back. Were all guns handed back???

cantona

As of 31/07/04 you can apply for anything in Ireland.All depends on your Superintendant.As of last week 567 handguns issued(Firearms dept. Garda H.Q.).You can claim any weapon back from 1972 seizure as long as you are licensed for same firearm.(i.e. can prove provenance, can prove need or use , and can prove somewhere to shoot "legally")

Politakill

You can get anything in this country if you have the money.

cantona

For more info P.M. me.(only for legal means)

cantona

According to the news today, if you are rich enough, you dont have to pay any tax at all.(legal or illegal).

Clare gunner

Politakill wrote:

You can get anything in this country if you have the money.

Yup.The best politicans in Europe that money can buy! :rolleyes:

Sparks

cantona wrote:

1972 was a 30 day seizure order, not due to the guns, but due to ammunition purchases.(Questions over where it was going, i.e someone who bought only 100 rounds per year was now buying 1000 per week).After 30 days when no-one made a big hulaboo they decided to keep it going until last year when many court cases were taken, result being we got our guns back.DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

That's not quite what happened, according to those who were there at the time, cantona. The TCO was issued; the firearms handed in; while they were in, their licenses expired; when joe bloggs went to get his new licence, he was informed that policy now precluded the issueing of licences for pistols or rifles over .22 in calibre; joe bloggs cannot now be legally given his firearm back (though it remains his property); the various associations and bodies start to kick up a row and are told directly that if they want, they can go to court, but that the DoJ's full weight will be brought against them and given the situation in Northern Ireland and the ROI (this was the early 70s, don't forget), they'd stand a pretty decent chance of losing; and if they won on the monday, the DoJ would have a new Firearms Bill submitted before friday, and with the situation that existed at that time, it would have gone through the Dail in record time.

As to "Don't let it happen again", you're posting on the shooting forum, I believe you can call that "preaching to the choir"...

woody

I have seen all the weapons there and one person I know personally has 8 Rifles held.


4 7.62MM FN FAL's

And 4 other types of hunting rifles.

As far as I know a lot of these weapons owners are deceased so weapons will goto the state:mad:

Rovi

Does anyone know how many firearms are being held?
Have their owners ever been contacted for any reason since the confiscation?

Is there any sort of maintenance regime in place for all this seized PRIVATE PROPERTY, or are they all quietly rusting away in a bunker somewhere?

Surely if the original owner is now deceased, ownership would pass to their estate, not to the state?


Questions, questions, questions.


Someone, somewhere, has all the details and records of these guns.

.

woody

1.) They are maintained every month oiled and stored correctly.


2.) They are within a Dublin Army Barracks

3.) There is close to 4,000 Weapons in the above location

4.) It is up to the owner to request them back, a lot of people have forgot or died.

5.) Whatever weapons not claimed or reissued are destroyed or boarded to the state.


I had a look at a few weapons in there recently and there is a serious amount of money in weapons there, although the likes of FN FALs and such weapons are unlikely to be handed back unless they are converted to straight pull like the UK

CJhaughey

What is the procedure for claiming back your Firearm?
Do you apply for a license and cite your ownership of the stored/siezed firearm?
I am enquiring for an Inlaw (not an outlaw;)) that had his .22 siezed.
He doesn't have access to these kind of forums, so I am doing the legwork for him.

Rovi

Thanks for that Woody, it's great to hear from someone with real 'hands on' information.
I've heard all sorts of horror stories about confiscated guns being stored in damp unsuitable conditions, and it's good to hear that this is not the case.

As far as I know, nothing was seized from my family, but I have no way of knowing for sure. I wonder would the Freedom of Information Act be useful here???

As you say, many of the owners are now deceased or have forgotten. I wonder will the Gardai ever attempt making contact with the last known owner of these guns?
This would straighten out the situation, with owners (or their next of kin) able to decide if they wish to regain possession, place the gun in the hands of a dealer for sale, or have it destroyed.

Perhaps when the amendments to the Firearms Acts come through, there will be a proper framework for the licencing and possession of these guns and something can be done about this relic of a darker time in our country.

.

woody

CJhaughey wrote:

What is the procedure for claiming back your Firearm?
Do you apply for a license and cite your ownership of the stored/siezed firearm?
I am enquiring for an Inlaw (not an outlaw;)) that had his .22 siezed.
He doesn't have access to these kind of forums, so I am doing the legwork for him.

I am not sure but I think the Department of Justice need to be contacted the log books which are updated regularly are available to them and then a renewal of license maybe the case

woody

In Regards to pistols, I seen quite a lot of Webley Revolvers and the Odd 1911 .45"


Does anyone know where weapons can be converter to straight pull ??

Clare gunner

As far as I know a lot of these weapons owners are deceased so weapons will goto the state:mad:

[/QUOTE]

Errr,not quite,Property of any citizen is protected constitutionally.And if seized by the State[if seized is the right word here.] It must be returned to the direct next of kin,if they make an application for it or can prove that their deceased relative owned it.Property can only go to the state if directly bequeathed by the owner or it is seized by the State for tax default purposes or gained by criminal means and monies.
On another point there is no requirement in law therethat big calibre semis are to be or must be converted to straight pull.It is an ambigious area at the moment,and is is usually dealt with the "idonlikedelookodat" firearms calssification in the Park and DOJ :rolleyes:

woody

Clare gunner wrote:

Errr,not quite,Property of any citizen is protected constitutionally.And if seized by the State[if seized is the right word here.] It must be returned to the direct next of kin,if they make an application for it or can prove that their deceased relative owned it.Property can only go to the state if directly bequeathed by the owner or it is seized by the State for tax default purposes or gained by criminal means and monies.
On another point there is no requirement in law therethat big calibre semis are to be or must be converted to straight pull.It is an ambigious area at the moment,and is is usually dealt with the "idonlikedelookodat" firearms calssification in the Park and DOJ :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Well hopefully big bore semi auto's will be allowed but I doubt it but again would love the chance to use them in a sporting fashion.

As for weapons getting boarded this remains to be see as many next of kin may not want these or may not be eligble, maybe a compensation board maybe setup in that case again many doubts

Rovi

woody wrote:

In Regards to pistols, I seen quite a lot of Webley Revolvers and the Odd 1911 .45"

There's got to be a bunch of stuff in there from the World Wars, 1916, the War of Independance and the Civil War, not to mention our position for a loooong time at (or near) the centre of the biggest empire ever known.
If nothing else, there is historical value here

.

FLAG

FYI

Firearms handed in during the 1972 temporary custody order are stored in numerous locations, firearms handed in from the Dublin Metrapolitan Area are Stored in Garda HQ, there is a depot of firearms in Cathal Bruagh Barracks mostly from the East Coast Region.

How do we know, during our discussions with the Gardai and Justice we sought permission to review the storage conditions of the firearms held by our members in the customdy of the state since 1972. We visitied Garda HQ and we were treated very well, we reviewed the storage conditions and requested sight of a number of firearms that were owned by members of the NRPAI (SSAI), there was no difficulty in showing the firearms as they were all tagged and recored as per their origional place of deposition, indexed by Garda District. Estimates would be around 5,000 handguns of various calibres.

We were afforded permission to further view the firearms stored at Cathal Bruagh, much more long firearms than Pistols, but essentially all of the firearms handed in from the east coast. Not more than 500 pistols but several 1,000's long arms, these mostly air rifles and .22, we suspect that individuals used the order to clear out fireamrs that they no longer needed, they are however kept racked and catalogued in secure storage.

We expect that there are other depots of civilain owned firearms around the country but we were satisfied that the storage conditions were good and contary to opinion all of the firearms surrendered were traced easily on the sample serial numbers we had.

Firearms stored in Garda HQ were greased up in the early 90's not more often than that, even plastic diana air pistols, had their share of grease.

With respect to ownership, the firearms are owned by the individuals who handed them in or their lawful heirs, the state can never claim ownership of private property and certainly cannot destroy it. Rest assured firearms handed into the Gardai in 1972 are still there and will remain there until calimed.

They can be claimed/recovered or sold by proving ownership, any person wishing to recover a firearm needs to have it licensed as per the current firearms legislation.

Many people have recovered their property since the changes brought about by successful high court challenges.

We would encourage anybody with property still in custody to recover it, there is nothing to stop and individual moving it to a registered firearms dealer.

Reports of our visit to Garda HQ were published in Shooters Digest in 2002 and are in the public domaine.

On a final note we refer to our sporting firearms as just that firearms, we never use the word weapon, look at the definition in the dictionary and you will see why, additionally nowhere in the firearms acts is the word weapon used to refer to a firearms, we have enough problems without creating more for ourselves.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

On a final note we refer to our sporting firearms as just that firearms, we never use the word weapon, look at the definition in the dictionary and you will see why

Indeed. It's very important that when we speak about our sport, we do so clearly, calmly, always with accuracy (we must never be factually inaccurate if possible, and spin or outright lying would be fatal to our interests), and we should strive to achieve a happy balance between our needs and the needs of the rest of the electorate, who happen to outnumber us by about 20 to 1 and also know the phone number for their local TD

additionally nowhere in the firearms acts is the word weapon used to refer to a firearms

*ahem*
Section 1 of the Principal Act:

..."firearm" means a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharge;

That definition has never been rescinded or altered and since it says "or other lethal weapon", it is defining (albiet indirectly) a firearm as a weapon.

Now we may know it's a bad definition; and anyone who looks at it will see that it's nearly unworkable when you go looking for it's limits, since noone's ever studied lethality in firearms in order to find the lower limit at which the firearm becomes lethal (and hopefully never will, given the ethical implications of such experimentation); but that doesn't mean that the definition doesn't exist or cannot be applied to us because we really wish it wouldn't be by people who don't like us. It should be changed, not ignored.

After all, we don't need to make problems for ourselves by pretending that the real problems which are there will go away if we ignore them long enough!

Rovi

Thanks for that FLAG, it's great to get some real, solid information on this stuff.

My main question on all this is does the DOJ intend making any attempt at contacting the recorded owners of all these firearms? As you say, they are the property of particular individuals or their heirs, but if these individuals are dead and gone and their heirs have no knowledge of the existence of the guns, what's going to happen to them?
Are the DOJ content to keep them in storage in perpetuity, on the off chance that someone going through the family documents in 2150 discovers their great-great-grandfather owned one of those quaint old chemical/pyrotechnic/projectile weapons, and they are now the rightful owners of it?

Perhaps the 'plan' is to let sleeping dogs lie until the owners and their heirs are long since gone, and the guns can be then quietly destroyed, with a few of the more interesting examples going in the National Museum?

.

FLAG

The answer to your question boils down to the legislative position with respect to the firearms currently stored in various locations and owned privately.

Had the Gardai decided to return the firearms after the expiry of the TCO 30 days after it was issued, they would have done so by advertising in the national press as per the legislation in the firearms acts.

As they chose to ignore the legislation then, they now they are operating outside of it and there is no legislative process to allow for the notification of owners of the firearms to allow for then to be collected if licensed appropriately.

The DOJ have no function in this matter as the firearms are in the custody of the Gardai. Maybe the new CJB "purchase of firearms" may allow the state to purchase the stored and unclaimed firearms........perhaps.

Ref: Sparks response to my advice that we do not use the word "Weapon" in the context of our sport..........That’s what was said and that was the meaning of it.........as usual he goes off on a tangent of bull, no doubt this clarification will be responded to by an equal if not more amount of bull as we are all so used to hearing from Sparks. Granted some of his input is reasonable, fair and appropriate but it generally gets lost in a sea of garbage.

When I joined the site it was my intention not to get drawn into this type of sniping, but unfortunately not everyone can leave it alone, the boards have certainly calmed down recently with good interchanges of information on shooting matters and that is why we decided to start contributing. As one can see from the content we have first hand experience on these matters, that is why FLAG was set up in 2001, while we have always briefed the committee of the SSAI (formerly NRPAI) the flow of information sometimes did not appear to get circulated efficiently for what ever reason, we have published in the Shooters Digest when we could, we have been castigated on occasions for not publishing here there and everywhere but there are only so many hours in the day and some of us have to keep the day job going.

It is my intention to use the boards to keep those interested up to date on current matters, but only if it does not deteriorate into a slag-ing match.

Let the board moderators do their job and lets see the boards work to the shooting communities advantage. Pity one of the moderators is the very one who appears to cause so much controversy.

Disposal of certain firearms and ammunition in the possession of the Garda Síochána. 7.—(1) References in this section to a firearm or ammunition that has come into the possession of the Garda Síochána are references to a firearm or ammunition that has come into the possession of the Garda Síochána before the passing of this Act pursuant to section 6 of the Principal Act or otherwise.

(2) The Commissioner may cause to be published in each daily newspaper published in the State a notice stating that any firearm or ammunition that has come into the possession of the Garda Síochána may be sold or destroyed unless the owner thereof makes claim and establishes his title thereto within the period of three months beginning on the date of the publication of the notice.

(3) Where a notice is published pursuant to subsection (2) of this section—

(a) the Commissioner shall cause to be sent by post to every person of whose address the Garda Síochána are aware and who is believed to be the owner of a firearm or ammunition that has come into the possession of the Garda Síochána a notice stating that the firearm or ammunition may be sold or destroyed unless the person makes claim and establishes his title thereto within the period of three months beginning on the date of the publication of the notice referred to in sub-section (2) of this section,
(b) where the address of the person believed to be the owner is unknown or the Commissioner is of opinion that a notice as aforesaid would not be understood by such person, the Commissioner may, at his discretion, cause the notice to be sent by post or otherwise given to any member of the family of such person or to such other person, if any, as he may, in the particular circumstances, think appropriate.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

When I joined the site it was my intention not to get drawn into this type of sniping

Firstly, can I say welcome and it's good to see you've changed your mind regarding the board from the original comments on it that you made to me earlier.

we have been castigated on occasions for not publishing here there and everywhere but there are only so many hours in the day and some of us have to keep the day job going.

Indeed; yet if you do things in other people's names and then tell them that you were unable to inform them of this because you were too busy, you shouldn't expect a great deal of sympathetic understanding; you should instead expect to be told to stop doing so many things in other people's names so that you can report on those that you do do.

It is my intention to use the boards to keep those interested up to date on current matters, but only if it does not deteriorate into a slag-ing match.

So the above attacks on myself were what, getting your self-defence in first?

Pity one of the moderators is the very one who appears to cause so much controversy.

I don't cause controversy or trouble lad, I just find it nearly impossible to ignore it and keep quiet. If it wasn't there in the first place, you'd not hear about it from me or anyone else, could you?

Disposal of certain firearms and ammunition in the possession of the Garda Síochána. 7
(2) The Commissioner may cause to be published in each daily newspaper published in the State a notice ...

'May' and 'Shall' are different words...

Rovi

Ah lads, please, please, don't turn this into another 'AGM' thread


Anyooo...
FLAG, I got the DOJ bit from somewhere further up the thread. So, this is all going on as 'Policy' is it? A bit like the current licencing procedure.
Let's hope the amended legislation will establish some procedure for sorting it all out.

.

woody

Could we have flags details as a stickie it is handy information

jaycee

Let's hope the amended legislation will establish some procedure for sorting it all out.

Any "Heads up" on when this is likely to come before the Dáil....?

Sparks

jaycee wrote:

Any "Heads up" on when this is likely to come before the Dáil....?

The second stage of the Dail debate is scheduled for this Thursday's session again JC.

As to the amendments, I wrote an email to the minister's office asking to see a copy after he gave his presentation to the Joint Committee. Their response was that the Minister is going to ask for permission to draft the actual proposal, and then he'll put the actual amended Bill up on justice.ie (I've asked for permission to reprint the full email here, but they tag on conditions to their emails saying that you can't reprint them without permission). They're saying that they won't be made public till then.

jaycee

Their response was that the Minister is going to ask for permission to draft the actual proposal,

He needs permission to Draft the proposal...? Eh..?

and then he'll put the actual amended Bill up on justice.ie

And the timeframe for all this is....roughly ...?

Sparks

He needs permission to Draft the proposal...? Eh..?

The idea, as I understand it, is that he makes a presentation to the Joint Committee laying out what he wants to legislate for; they make their recommendations to the Dail; McDowell then presents his amendments to the Dail following the conclusion of the Joint Committee stage, and then this amended Bill is voted on; after which it goes to the Seanad and we do this all over again. As to timeframe, I'd say we're talking more weeks than months, but that's about as close as I'd want to bet on it...

woody

I would'nt like to see laws slackened but rather see the variety of Firearms available increased within reason.


ie. Pistols that are sold here not a rip off prices and larger varieties of them.

Higher Calibre Rifles both semi auto and boltaction etc.

More facilities for shooters and training programmes for potential shooters.

I would'nt want to see us go like the U.S but rather Europe say Germany.

jaycee

Thanks Sparks,
I wasn't aware of the steps involved..

Clare gunner

woody wrote:

I would'nt like to see laws slackened but rather see the variety of Firearms available increased within reason.

ie. Pistols that are sold here not a rip off prices and larger varieties of them.

Buy outside the State!This is what the EU is all about!The more busisnesses have to compete here the less rip offs you will see.I am making it a point now to buy anything I need outside Ireland.I am just fed up of being ripped off with everything around here.Day to day living and shooting related.

I would'nt want to see us go like the U.S but rather Europe say Germany.[/

Errr.NO you wouldnt!!Their liscensing system for target shooting is a three
year written and practical nightmare.Their Hunting liscense is a four year oral,written and practical test with MAJOR expense and lifestyle changes attached to it.Thats if you want to do it properly in WestGermany.You can do a quicckie hunting course in the East,but it is looked down upon by the hunters who have done the four year hard course.The security requirements for storing and reloading are difficult enough too,not to mind the psychological testing as well.
The only advantage to German firearm laws is that they are pretty clear in what you can do,cant do,own,not own.And what the requirements are for getting a firearm.

Traumadoc

i dont think that the gunshops in Ireland are ripping you off- most of the guys in it seem to be in it as part of a hobby and I have only seen gun shops close not open over the last 20-30 years. ( the one in Bray, Garnetts and keegans, etc.)
We can only buy a limited amount of firearms. We bought 2 ( an air rifle and a shotgun) in 30 years in ireland while I have bought and sold 6 in 3 years in Australia.

If we do not support gunshops in Ireland they will closed not lower the prices.

regarding the German procedures I certainly hope we do not go down that route as it would put off a a lot of interested shooters.

We have a reasonable system here (australia) for rifles - 1 day course for shooting followed by an exam undertaken at the club. Hunting is a further course undertaken under the control at a college for further education again for one day- with a shooting profiency test.
Pistol shooting courses are generally undertaken over a number of weeks - I have not done it as its too much trouble so i dont know the exact ins and outs

Babble

FX Meister wrote:

I thought that all handguns were against the law in Ireland.

Maybe someone should make a Sticky (A thankless job) about the subject of whats currently legal or not. A basic outline as to how and why
I myself have asked handgun questions and noticed it has cropped up many times in the past.