Fighting increasing fundamentalism

joseph dawton

I am appalled by the Pope's increasingly hardline approach, coupled with entrenched positions of some other clerics of other religions it doesn't offer much hope for tolerance and reconcilliation does it?

I have not suffered myself but some of my pagan friends have felt a backlash against them and it's getting worse so I hear. Also a few muslim people I know are viewed with suspicion for no apparent reason I sure it's because of their faith. I think it's important that people speak out against leaders like the Pope who encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Does anyone agree with me?

Nevyn

I am a pagan and I disagree.
I am glad to see the catholic chruch start pulling up it's socks tbh.
They have a very clear cut set of directives for thier religion and you are either
in or you are out.
There are too many alle carte catholics and christians who take and leave
what they want from the churches doctrine and do not hold to the basics.

'Love Thy neighbour as yourself' this does not differencate between a
neighbour that is of the same race or creed as you and one that is not.

Christainty and Catholism are spiritual paths that can be very good for those
that chooser them.
A lotof peope feel that they ar catholic/christain be default as they feel the
never had a choice in the matter.
As the Catholic church disowns people who will not coform to the doctrine
and dogma of that faith they will then let go of that and start looking arround
for a faith that that fits them and thier life style.

I think that epsicopalian
faith and churches would d well over here with the ammount of lapsed and
disillusioned catholics Ireland has.
I would prefer to see them here then some of the more radical evanglising
christain sects.

Then again some of the best christians I know walked away from all churches
long ago. Christainty has a lot of good to offer, really other wise why would
the words of a rebellious man who spoke out and spoke a lot of sense 2000 years ago still be heard today.

I do think tolerance and acceptance is needed , reconilation ?
why would that be needed ?
Different people worship thier gods in differnt ways and live thier lives accordingly.

stevenmu

I kind of agree with Thaed. I think the last Pope was quite good at encouraging tolerance between those of different religions, including visiting famous Mosques and Synagogues, and I think the new Pope is following on in that tradition. What he is doing though is saying that catholics need to either be proper catholics or not be catholics at all. IMO there's too many people who claim to be catholics but disagree with standard catholic teachings, the most obvious ones being teachings on homosexuality, abortion, contraception and divorce. I know others disagree with me on this but I think that catholisicm is a religion where you pretty much have to believe and follow all of the vaticans teachings. While there are other religions/belief systems that allow you to 'pick-n-mix', I don't see catholisicm as being one of them. IMO if you don't believe/follow all the vaticans teachings, which include tolerance for those of other faiths, then you're not really a catholic.

I think it's really people who bring fundamentalism upon themselves, they become convinced that they are right and everyone who disagrees with them is not only wrong. Not only that but they think anyone who is 'wrong' either needs to be converted for their own good, or that they are dangerous to what is 'right' and need to be eliminated. There are then those who can turn such fundamentalism to their own ends, Osama Bin Laden being the prime example of this. I don't believe for one second that he believes half the crap he comes with himself, I think he's using Islamic fundamentalism for his own ends (power mainly).

Dagon

I don't think people understand what was being implied in the original post.

Anyone who has come close to God can understand that any and all forms of sectarianism are actually increasing conflict, chaos and further misery in the world. When all faiths - be they pagan or catholicism - unite under the one banner, the banner of the universal energy of love, then only can there be an end to misery, to chaos in the world. It is as simple as that.

Anyone who promotes this or that doctrine, anyone who promotes this or that "way" or "teaching" or any organised faith (be it Christian or non-christian) is actually helping the cause for separatism. Anyone who is under any banner whatsoever is in love with their own concepts, their own beliefs, the written word, the path.. this will not solve the crisis we face in the world right now. It may give you personal gratification and may increase your ego, but these are short term gains and they will not ultimately free you, or those around you.

Right now, it is of utmost importance that people recognise that it is not the issue of converting from one faith to another, from one form of dogma to another more acceptable or palatable dogma that suits ones life, from one idol to another cooler looking idol. It is, rather, the issue of converting from hate to love, from tension to calmness, from war to peace, from toleration to love and acceptance, from lie to universal truth.

It doesn't matter what this pope or that pope has done, or whatever other faiths he appears to "tolerate". It is all empty and false when the actions of this person are in complete contradiction to unity, to love, to God.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

Right now, it is of utmost importance that people recognise that it is not the issue of converting from one faith to another, from one form of dogma to another more acceptable or palatable dogma that suits ones life, from one idol to another cooler looking idol. It is, rather, the issue of converting from hate to love, from tension to calmness, from war to peace, from toleration to love and acceptance, from lie to universal truth.

*Applauds*

Well said (although there are perhaps differing "universal truths").

stevenmu

Dagon wrote:

I don't think people understand what was being implied in the original post.

.....

Put like that, I'd agree with you completely, and I think it's a great pity that more religious figures around world don't. The thing is, from the Pope's point of view, his way is the right way and all others are wrong. While he does preach tolerance of others, yourself and the OP are both right that this will lead to intolerance and hatred. Unfortunatly as far as the Pope is concerned, other ways being 'wrong' is an integral part of his religion and beliefs, and it if that were to change it would akin to admitting that the church has been wrong about it since it's inception, and if it was wrong about that it may as well be wrong about everything else too.

Dagon

If it is really the universal truth, then there can be no separation because the real truth will unite, not bring about more conflict and sects. That is how you will know it when you see it. If someone claims something is "the way" or "the path" or "the true one path" or "the truth", and yet the very workings of this faith bring about separation or divisions or ANY sort, then this faith has already been revealed for what it really is; a contradiction of itself. Observe these people, observe these groups and organisations at work, observe those who practice in their daily existence, find out for yourself through your own awareness. Don't believe what you read on their website

"While he does preach tolerance of others" - "his way is the right way and all others are wrong."

Exactly. This very activity is completely ego-centred, and therefore the ultimate aims of the enlightened person who began this faith have been corrupted, polluted, made impure.

For instance; Buddha never created Buddhism, Buddhists created Buddhism. Buddha only ever gave Dhamma, a wonderful technique for all people to practice regardless of creed/caste, he only ever brought people together, nobody was turned away. Experts in this area will verify it. Separation came along when the robes, rites, rituals, temples and scriptures took precedence over the teaching that Buddha gave.

Dades

Dagon, now I'm confused as to what you're actually saying.

Yes the world's faiths need to sort out a common agenda, but this cannot (for them) be at the cost of losing their identity.

The Pope believes himself to be the one and only portal to I]the Catholic[/I GOD the creator of everything. For somebody that commited the idea of tolerance can never extend to integrating faiths.

It won't happen so if change is to come it will have to be at the levels where the real people are.

Dagon

"It won't happen so if change is to come it will have to be at the levels where the real people are."

I don't know if it will happen or not. It might be looking unlikely right now, but I never like to say "won't" because I don't really know for sure.

"Yes the world's faiths need to sort out a common agenda, but this cannot (for them) be at the cost of losing their identity."

You have pinpointed the exact problem - identity.

Identification with a particular holy person, identification with a nation, identification with a flag, identification with money, identification with power, identification with your family, your child, your loved one.

Do they not all need to conflict?

But would you like to give up your identity completey? I know I wouldn't, and that is why I continue to generate misery and unhappiness for myself, and sometimes others. I am learning slowly, but until I learn to completelysurrender, to let go of my identity and my various accumilations, I will remain unenlightened. And difficulties will ensue.

The exact same thing applies to the situation in the world. Until the Pope leaves identity behind him, there is destined to be war, conflict, misery. Until everyone leaves that beihind, and follows the path of the simple man, there will be chaos in the world. And this applies right down to our daily relationship with each other, our attachment to our particular beliefs, our complete lack of love. There is no mystery or hocuspocus behind it, it's very basic.

We are creating all this chaos every moment in our lives, and the greater chaos is expressed in larger world events - but this is nothing more than a reflection of our daily war with ourselves. A larger representation.

So pointing the finger at the Pope is quite unfair in truth, but it may help us to understand things on a larger level, then apply it to our own lives.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

So pointing the finger at the Pope is quite unfair in truth, but it may help us to understand things on a larger level, then apply it to our own lives.

Absolutely.

I don't envisage a day when the Pope will appeal to the masses having 'spoken' with God, and declare all of humanity children of the earth; equal in the eyes of the Creator.

Once we accept this it is up to ourselves, instead, to declare it.
Unfortunately we lack the same platform as El Papa.

KnowItAll

joseph dawton wrote:

. Also a few muslim people I know are viewed with suspicion for no apparent reason I sure it's because of their faith.

Why do you think that is? Part of their faith is to view other non-muslims as being the dirt under their shoes/sandals.

joseph dawton wrote:

.
I think it's important that people speak out against leaders like the Pope who encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Does anyone agree with me?

How does the pope encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Could you give some examples please because I've never seen any.

Goodshape

KnowItAll wrote:

How does the pope encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Could you give some examples please because I've never seen any.

The Pope to exclude gay priests
Condom Conundrums.

Some good sentiments expressed by Dagon; I agree with most of that. Though I also agree with Thead that the catholic church is what it is and should not be expected to change for your or anyone elses sake.

Catholicism isn't a democracy, it's a defined set of beliefs and you can either accept that our find yourself a new path. The 'love they neighbor' rule alone should be enough to save you from any bigotry if you do.

Actual spirituality aside, I do see the church as having undue influence over world affairs and some very questionable 'recruitment' practices at times. It's this that should be address rather than their fundamental beliefs.

scorptech

Hi, I had a read of the thread and thought I would put my 5 pence worth in.

I was brought up as a catholic but got disillusioned with the “you must love thy God, but you must also fear thy God” kind of preaching. Most of the issues in religion are man made, and you have to question the motive. Religion is man made to control man, what ever the religion, but the one thing they all agree on is that there is a God. Whether that is Buddha, Jehovah or Christ etc.

I am now into spiritualism and have got more from this than the many years of being a “catholic”. From a psychological point of view, man has always lived in groups for hundreds of years, so to change this will be very difficult, however, I live by these guidelines:-

1) Love thy God
2) Do unto others as you would like done unto you
3) It’s better to give than receive
4) Like attracts like
5) Universal law – what goes around comes around (Karma)

These rules, as for as I’m concerned, do not need any religion, belief system or anything else for that matter. If everyone, regardless of religion, lived by these guidelines, than the world would be a better place. This can only really happen when people start asking the question “What is the meaning of life”, “why are we here” etc.

Dades

scorptech wrote:

These rules, as for as I’m concerned, do not need any religion, belief system or anything else for that matter.

The notion of Karma requires some faith if you ask me.
It's a nice idea, but as far as I'm concerned - what goes around doesn't always come around.

stevenmu

The Atheist wrote:

The notion of Karma requires some faith if you ask me.
It's a nice idea, but as far as I'm concerned - what goes around doesn't always come around.

Karma (which I see as an extension of the 'like attracts like') can have some very obvious basis in reality. For example, criminals tend to associate with other criminals, and if some junkie mugs you for drug money, there's a good chance that at some stage they'll suffer an overdose or end up in debt to a dealer who'll give them a good beating. Similarly when someone is nice, kind and generous and always willing to help out their friends/strangers then there's a good chance that they'll have people willing to help them out when they need it. It's not exact or certain, there'll always be very noticeable exceptions, but karma often has a way of catching up with people, even if there may not be an actuall karma, if you see what I mean.

scorptech wrote:

1) Love thy God
2) Do unto others as you would like done unto you
3) It’s better to give than receive
4) Like attracts like
5) Universal law – what goes around comes around (Karma)

I like those rules (except maybe the 1st), it's great pity more people don't live by them. Even though most religions seem to echo them in some form or another, they get overlooked in favour of the more man-made rules.

scorptech

I agree with stevenmu, we are all here to learn about life. During our life we will be given "lessons" to learn. If we do not learn from these listens, then they will keep coming around until we do learn, this is Karma.

In my own experiences, I have seen this happen to people on a number of occasions (what goes around comes around). The one person I can relate this to is my old boss. arrogant, selfish, materialistic etc. These attributes are concerned with your root chakra and your root chakra is linked to a number of your internal organs, one of them being your prostate gland. My boss got prostate cancer about a year ago and was lucky that it didn’t spread. Now, you would think that having the big “C” would change your out look on life, not him. He is still the same, so this karma will come around again in some shape or form until he does learn from it. Karma might not be immediate, but it will eventually come around!!

About a year ago I decided to change my attitude and adapt the “belief” that "what you give, you receive", but this must be done with sincerity. If you do it wanting something in return, it will not work. Since changing, I’ve noticed a big difference in my life and the people around me.

I also avoid negative people who just bring your energy down.

Dades

I guess there's a lot to be said about that kind of "Karma" alright.

If you act like a dick your whole life then sooner or later you're going to feel the wrath of someone you crossed. That's man-made karma. I suspect negative karma is more likely to be reciprocated than positive karma however. I don't know if that's good or bad.

This life rule is more of a heaven/hell type encouragement/warning than anything else.
But one that relies on human nature to punish or reward.

solas

1) Love thy God
2) Do unto others as you would like done unto you
3) It’s better to give than receive
4) Like attracts like
5) Universal law – what goes around comes around (Karma)

These rules, as for as I’m concerned, do not need any religion, belief system or anything else for that matter.

but..these "rules" are a religion, that being "a belief system"..it just happens to be your own personal one.

If everyone, regardless of religion, lived by these guidelines, than the world would be a better place.

no doubt christians, muslims, jews and pagans etc..feel the same way about their system of belief..because it works for them.
So it goes back to square one. "God...if only everyone thought like me, the world would be a better place."

scorptech

SOLAS - but..these "rules" are a religion, that being "a belief system"..it just happens to be your own personal one.

If you want to call it a belief system, than that's your call, however, if eveyone did follow these guidelines regardless of race, creed or nationality, then the world would be a better place.

Dades

solas wrote:

"God...if only everyone thought like me, the world would be a better place."

Thinking is not the problem IMO.

The vast majority of people already know what they should and should not do as a matter of course. All religions with the exception of twisted radical ones promote the "golden rule" in one form or another.

It's not that people don't think this is the correct way to lead their lives, they just don't act on this.
People know how they should act - they just don't.

scorptech

SOLAS - It's not that people don't think this is the correct way to lead their lives, they just don't act on this.

I agree, and what do we put it down to? Psychological manipulation by the powers that be, society and the materialistic world we live in. One of the biggest mass hypnosis devices we have today is the TV. When people realise this, then they can start moving away from materialism etc, but the penny has to drop, this, however, is very difficult.

Who makes society, we do. Who can change society, we can. But doing something outside the norm of society is seen as "weird". Why should this be? Who keeps us from stepping outside of society? friend’s and family - just like the shepard and the sheep dog. If the sheep move outside the herd, they are brought back in line.

Are you strong enough to move away from the herd?

solas

athiest wrote:

thinking is not the problem

well...in all fairness, it all starts with a thought, these same thought processes brought us every other religion anyway.

psst..scorp, your quoting athiest.

athiest wrote:

It's not that people don't think this is the correct way to lead their lives, they just don't act on this.

I also agree it does come down to actions, but we can't change other people and once we begin to accept that, then the world might be a better place.

scorptech

SOLAS - I also agree it does come down to actions, but we can't change other people and once we begin to accept that, then the world might be a better place.

The world will not be a better place if people didn't change. Change starts with us. We then educate our kids and so forth. Why do you think some of these troubled kids are the way they are, because they learn from their parents and society.

So change has to start with us, and if like attracts like, then more and more people will hopefully be enlightened. We cannot change people directly, but we can do it indirectly starting with family and friends. Especially if people see you as a person that people respect and lookup to.

I'm not saying to go around and start preaching, but small changes in attitudes to people can make a difference. As an IT Manager with staff, I use a number of management techniques to motivate staff, so it can be done. It's up to you whether you want to or not.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

but..these "rules" are a religion, that being "a belief system"..it just happens to be your own personal one.

There is certainly a similarity between myself and scorptech thinking that these rules are good and that the world would be better if everyone thought like that, and the Pope thinking that his rules are good and the world ... etc,etc. There's also a similarity between saying the people saying that the Pope's views are wrong and that he shouldn't be preaching them, and the Pope saying that pick-n-mix religion etc is wrong. And I'm certainly guilty of

solas wrote:

So it goes back to square one. "God...if only everyone thought like me, the world would be a better place."

The big difference however being that I don't go around telling people that they should follow my rules. Personally I think that they should be self-evident, are really a part of human nature, not nessecarily spiritual based and could be agreed upon by anyone (apart from the first which I already mentioned disagreeing with).

(I hope I got all that right, I'm trying do 5 things at once here)

Dades

stevenmu wrote:

Personally I think that they should be self-evident, are really a part of human nature, not nessecarily spiritual based and could be agreed upon by anyone (apart from the first which I already mentioned disagreeing with).

They are self evident, and as you say not stemming from any particular religion. [Although some theists will undoubtably argue that their religion is the source of this life ethos].

Everyone living by these rules would create a selfless and probably class-less, utopian society. This is too far out of our reach. As scorptech suggests change starts with our kids. How do you educate your kids? Try and give them a social conscience.

It's no use knowing you should treat others as you would yourself, if your conscience don't control your actions.

Reminds me of a quote: I have morals, I just ignore them.

solas

scorp wrote:

The world will not be a better place if people didn't change. Change starts with us.

this is the point I was making. We can't change others we can only change ourselves.

steven wrote:

The big difference however being that I don't go around telling people that they should follow my rules. Personally I think that they should be self-evident,

xactly, I wholeheartedly agree.

athiest wrote:

Everyone living by these rules would create a selfless and probably class-less, utopian society.

so why not apply these rules to the current topic. People are unhappy with the pope and the catholic church, and possibly many other religious authorites. Why? Unless you are a member of that particular faith and are unhappy with its policies, I don't see the need to get befuddled about it.
We can't change them, we can only truly change our attitude toward them and if we are genuinely happy and content with our own selves and our beliefs there should be no need to be concerned with others. They will either change themselves over time or die out.

scorptech

The Atheist - Everyone living by these rules would create a selfless and probably class-less, utopian society. This is too far out of our reach. As scorptech suggests change starts with our kids. How do you educate your kids? Try and give them a social conscience.

You've hit the nail on the head - how can we give our kids a social conscience if we are ignorant to it ourselves??

It's not a problem until people realise there is a problem!!

Dagon

"Who makes society, we do. Who can change society, we can."

Absolutely. But there is a lot of fear because most humans are incapable of steeping out of the "known". Stepping into the unknown brings about freshness, creativity, positive action. But so much fear is associated with leaving behind attachments that it becomes easier to become a dull machine, going through mindless habit patterns and repeating the same old mistakes time and time again. This is all a result of thinking, analysing and the worship of ideas. I feel that ideas are very dangerous, they create a deep and scary gulf between what "is" and what is "not". Crossing this gulf is a constant struggle and bring conflict.

We can change ourselves, we can change society. Thinking may be the beginning of our path, concepts may face us in the right direction... but thinking and analysing must be left behind if we are to progress.

Imagine if a child could grow up without all the harmful influences of television? How would that child think, act, dream, behave? How much more creative would this child be? If television was removed completely from our culture, the changes would be baffling.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

Imagine if a child could grow up without all the harmful influences of television? How would that child think, act, dream, behave? How much more creative would this child be? If television was removed completely from our culture, the changes would be baffling.

I don't think television can be blamed for societies woes.

If television disappeared in the morning it won't be instantly replaced by classical literature. Yes there'd be changes. Maybe we'd have a lot more kids loitering on street corners. It, like the Internet, is an information portal - you take from it what you want. (Granted, TV does show an awful lot of crap...)

I don't think TV stifles creativity or ambition. Many kids' dreams have come from watching Discovery Channel, Space Shuttle launches, or any quality Police or Medical drama. News channels feed us images from around the world - to people who only other source of news is the "National Enquirer". Take away television and the ignorace of world affairs that was prevelant before the advent of TV returns.

scorptech

DAGON - Imagine if a child could grow up without all the harmful influences of television? How would that child think, act, dream, behave? How much more creative would this child be? If television was removed completely from our culture, the changes would be baffling.

I totally agree with you on that one, so how can we start to make a change? Well most of the users on this forum seem to be well aware that change has to take place - so we start with ourselves and then educate or kids. Over a period of time, hopefully this will make a difference. Apathy might kick in, but that's another matter.

stevenmu

Apathy ? meh, I wouldn't bother worrying about that.

Dagon

"Take away television and the ignorace of world affairs that was prevelant before the advent of TV returns."

Yes, television offeres some wonderful information.

But would you agree that humans are the results of conditioning? And most human woes and problems are the result of negative conditioning of the mind? Is this true?

There is much negative conditioning taking place, but also much positive. A human being is sometimes nothing more than a bunch of conditioned responses and information. And this brings about great misery.

Television conditions the human mind to no end. Therefore, the human becomes the result of television. That is, a lot of the conditioning that takes place is done by television when it is viewed in excess (and a lot of people watch it a lot), so the values and behaviour that is seen on TV is adopted. Simple as that.

Now, for yourself I ask you to spend 8 hours watching the TV. Afterwards, examine how you feel. What percentage of the content you have viewed could be percieved as positive conditioning for the fragile human mind?

You find out for yourself.

stevenmu

I'm not really convinced by the impact on society by TV. I've watched as much crap as any murderer, thief, politician etc, I'd have even watched '18's films as a child, and still think of myself as a pretty decent person. Altough my parents were very persistent in pointing out the differences between TV/movies and real life, so maybe I was pre-conditioned into not being conditioned by TV. And there are plenty of parents out there who don't seem to give a crap about passing good value systems on to their children.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

But would you agree that humans are the results of conditioning? And most human woes and problems are the result of negative conditioning of the mind? Is this true?

To be honest, I don't agree that human actions are the result of conditioning. I believe that if someone mimics a murder they saw in a movie that that person had a predilection for murder to begin. It's easier to blame TV, or religion, or society than it is to accept that people are going to act in line with their nature. You don't make people good - they are made good.

Yes in certain circumstances people can be perverted by their upbringing. Adults abused as children are statistically more likely to abuse their own. But this is a far cry from television that is an accepted part of life.

What realistically replaces 8 hours of TV in somebody's day? Home schooling? Reading at the library? What fills the void?

Was society so much better before we had television? Or perhaps it was just repressed and society's ills were other peoples problems.

scorptech

TV is one of the many ways on which we are conditioned. Anyone remember the Coca Cola experiments in the 60’s regarding subliminal adverts in the cinema? What about Bush Junior’s subliminal message of rats when he was fighting Al Gore. The only problem with this one was that Bush had the subliminal message up too long, so if you slowed it down and played it back, you saw rats.

Psychological manipulation through the media is one way we are condition. The fact that you don’t realise this means that it’s successful. Yes, you can watch violent movies and not kill anyone, but then your probably older and hopefully wiser. I’ve stopped my son watching the Power Rangers because he keeps going around hitting us thinking he’s one of them (he’s four by the way).

A typical example of conditioning at an early age!!

Dagon

"To be honest, I don't agree that human actions are the result of conditioning."

I never said all actions are the result of conditioning, sometimes there is negative or positive energy existing in a human - I don't know how it gets there, possibly built up through numerous lives, and karma.

But most thoughts you have are conditioned. Action springs from thought, therefore most actions are conditioned. If you reach into the subconscious levels of the mind you can find this out experientially, you can actually watch yourself acting and reacting time and time again on stored up information. Don't take my word for it, try it out.

I don't think TV is evil or whetever, but it slows us down, it drugs us, it hypnotises us, it dulls us, it dulls our minds. We are contented, dull, machines going through old routines. But it is only one of many activities we do that leads us further from awareness and alertness.

You say that it is useful tool for staying in touch with world events, politics and news. But how useful is this information to you? All of these things are merely distractions, they are escapes, and they do not liberate people in any way. Newspapers, tv, mobile phones, shopping, etc. they are all very dangerous tools when they have the widespread use and acceptance that they now have; sometimes I find it hard to believe this is not seen by more people.

"What realistically replaces 8 hours of TV in somebody's day? Home schooling? Reading at the library? What fills the void?"

It depends on the individual. All I know is that 4 years ago I watched a lot of TV, now I don't watch any, or maybe very occasionally when I'm at home eating or before bed, but there is nothings that I GOTTA WATCH OR ELSE!! What has filled the void? Well, a lot of very interesting things actually. You wouldn't believe what you can do when you free yourself from the chains of the TV, the energy it frees up within you is enormous. You will take up new hobbies and fill your life with many interesting things that will enhance and enrich your short time on this planet

But, as we said before, it's up to the individual to make these decisions for themselves when they feel compelled to!

Dades

scorptech wrote:

I’ve stopped my son watching the Power Rangers because he keeps going around hitting us thinking he’s one of them (he’s four by the way).

He's four! Of course he's not going to know what's going on. Does that mean kids of 8, or 10 can't watch that stuff? It's no more violent that the early Batman series I watched as I kid.

Take away the media and all you are doing is cocooning society. That is not progress. Media programming has been around since Gutenberg invented the printing press. The only difference now is choice. We're not told what to watch/read any more.

Dagon wrote:

I never said all actions are the result of conditioning, sometimes there is negative or positive energy existing in a human - I don't know how it gets there, possibly built up through numerous lives, and karma.

Or it's our basic character and we're born with it..?

Dagon wrote:

You say that it is useful tool for staying in touch with world events, politics and news. But how useful is this information to you? All of these things are merely distractions, they are escapes, and they do not liberate people in any way.

So ignorance is bliss? I never considered watching coverage of the African AIDs crisis as an 'escape'.

I get the feeling we're slipping down different paths here.

joseph dawton

I have to disagree, we live in an age of full scale media manipulation and advertising bombardment. TV is the main instrument of brainwashing and it is extremely pursuasive. I'm sure John Logi Baird would have destroyed his invention had he known how misused it has become.

Every day we are told what to buy what to wear, read, watch, think. You say there is more choice - well yes but all the choices are nearly identical like so many brands of washing powder or breakfast cereal.

Real free thinking and making decisions about life outside of the loop is definitely not encouraged. Don't you know we're all meant to shut up like good little consumers? We're allowed 'freedom' so long as our beliefs and actions don't visibly stray beyond what governments consider to be acceptable.

Dagon

"So ignorance is bliss? I never considered watching coverage of the African AIDs crisis as an 'escape'.

I get the feeling we're slipping down different paths here. "

Hehe.. honestly mate, I think it's similar stuff. Why this extraordinary concern with others, with the problems of others, with the private lives of others? Why this incessant greed for information?

There are so many problems going on within ourselves, yet we attempt to cover it up by occupying our minds with the problems of others. This doesn't help. Knowledge about the problems of other people does not help.

Start to understand yourself, and try to solve the problems within, try to start untying the knots. Then you will have a lot more to give to the world wherever you go, and you will become a lot more productive in helping to solve problems for others.

Dades

Hmmm.

I don't get how looking inwards is going to help anyone less fortunate then ourselves. Isn't the problem with society that people's motives are inherently selfish? The instinct to look after number one?

I'm happy with my life but through the media I know that millions dying of hunger and disease are not with theirs.

I don't have a need for information but I feel a better person when I'm at least aware of what is going on in the world. As a result, although I'm not going to pack up and become an aid worker, I might throw a few quid to worthy causes. And this is more likely to help a soul than taking time to 'understand myself'.

scorptech

Joseph Dawton - Real free thinking and making decisions about life outside of the loop is definitely not encouraged. Don't you know we're all meant to shut up like good little consumers? We're allowed 'freedom' so long as our beliefs and actions don't visibly stray beyond what governments consider to be acceptable.

I agree with Joseph. Are sheep in a field surrounded by bushes free? What we perceive as "freedom" is covert control by the government and the powers that be. As a person who is trained and has trained people in social psychology, I know how easy it is to manipulate people once you understand the science and understand that people are creatures of habit. The government, amongst other "agencies" also know this.

The Atheist - I might throw a few quid to worthy causes. And this is more likely to help a soul than taking time to 'understand myself'.

Throwing a few quid to a worthy cause is your solution to improving the world? Don't you know that most of the governments are corrupt. All the money raised for the Kurdish crisis never got to the Kurdish people due to corrupt politician called Jeffery Archer!!

What I sense from a number of users on this forum is that they are well aware of what is going on and that there is a bigger picture. So if you are watching the television to be "informed" then you would already know that there are forces controlling and manipulating events behind the scenes. Your obviously watching the wrong channel

Dades

Okay, now thaty we're firmly ensconced in the realm of the conspiracy theory (;)), I want to know what freedoms you are being denied, and how you are reacting to this denial? And by reacting - I don't mean talk.

Lets not forget that many people are happy to be sheep. Some of us present are not. If you can put into words what it is that you cannot, but should be able to do in today's society I'll be very interested to hear.

scorptech wrote:

Throwing a few quid to a worthy cause is your solution to improving the world? Don't you know that most of the governments are corrupt. All the money raised for the Kurdish crisis never got to the Kurdish people due to corrupt politician called Jeffery Archer!!

I'm not trying to improve the world. I ain't Bob Geldof or Mother Teresa. Like 99% of people my world is very small. But I like to think that a worthy cause can use donations to do some good.

Even after a percentage is skimmed off it's surely better than sitting back turning off BBC World News and reflecting on how the government is manipulating you.

Dagon

I don't think we should spend too much time fantasising about "conspiracy theories".

My point was to respod to your "ignorance is bliss" inference. I think the bottom line is that we are spending a lot of time covering up our own problems in the here and now, our relationship to the present moment. Being in constant awareness (or even partial) of present moment is not ignorance. Understanding the nature of your relationship with those around you and with yourself is not ignorance. Spending time fantasising and filling the mind with information and knowledge about numerous topics, world issues, politics, epidemics, statistics and even conspiracy thoeries is ignorance. You are avoiding, or delaying the relationship with reality as it is. This in itself is also very selfish - someone who is living in ignorance has very little to give or contribute to those around him or her. Know yourself first.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

Spending time fantasising and filling the mind with information and knowledge about numerous topics, world issues, politics, epidemics, statistics and even conspiracy thoeries is ignorance. You are avoiding, or delaying the relationship with reality as it is.

I have my own thoughts on what is avoiding reality...

Being in constant awareness (or even partial) of present moment is not ignorance... Know yourself first.

Okay I'm listening... but then what?
Assuming you reach that destination - what good is it to anyone other than yourself?

Dagon

"Assuming you reach that destination - what good is it to anyone other than yourself?"

Find out for yourself, try it out. Don't believe a book.

Knowledge of worldly things, of items in the news, of knowledge gained from reading books, this is not awareness. It is little more than accumilation in the mind of facts and details. Freeing the mind from all these things gives the mind profound energy to become more selfless, and to truly give.. (without forcing it).

scorptech

Ignorance is not knowing.

If you didn't know that a car was a form of transport, you would probably still use a bus, but the fact that you know what a car does means that you can decide whether you want to use a car or a bus. It's a basic anology, but you know where I'm coming from.

Knowledge gives you choices, what you do with the knowledge is up to you.

having knowledge on various subject matters has helped me review my own life and improve it. Books etc give you knowledge, it's what you do with it this knowledge that counts.

Some people prefer to be lead like sheep, but there are a few who have woken up to what is going on and have made a conscience decision to make changes to their own lives and the people around them.

Dades

scorptech wrote:

it's what you do with it this knowledge that counts.

Absolutely. Though this doesn't mean you can't just enjoy a facinating book on a topic about which you know nothing.

Dagon, rather than continue in circles I'll propose that we've taken seperate paths again.

Dagon

"If you didn't know that a car was a form of transport, you would probably still use a bus, but the fact that you know what a car does means that you can decide whether you want to use a car or a bus. It's a basic anology, but you know where I'm coming from.

Knowledge gives you choices, what you do with the knowledge is up to you. "

Yes, totally agree. We need to have knowledge of technical facts to get through life. The more we know about such things, the easier life becomes.

After all is said and done, I still love watching movies, reading interesting books and buying the odd glossy-style magazine from the newsagent. It gives me knowledge that I find interesting, useful in life, broadens my ideas, and sometimes gives gratification

But what I was trying, albeit not very well, to point out, is that a socity where such things are held up as Gods, will lead away from living.

scorptech

DAGON - But what I was trying, albeit not very well, to point out, is that a socity where such things are held up as Gods, will lead away from living.

I agree with this and that is why I no longer watch any programs that pull your energy down i.e. soaps etc. It's enough working all day and then coming in and watching people fighting, having affairs, getting killed etc.

I not only watch programs (most of the time) that I feel will be educational. I feel better not watching thrash TV, but everyone is different. Even the chat shows have guests plugging their new movie, drama, album etc. Why can't they just get people on that have something desent to say, rather than the same old b*****t all the time.

Dades

scorptech wrote:

I agree with this and that is why I no longer watch any programs that pull your energy down i.e. soaps etc. It's enough working all day and then coming in and watching people fighting, having affairs, getting killed etc.

Couldn't agree more. I cannot watch that stuff.

Now that LOST is finished all I can watch is Discovery Channel and the TG4 weather forcast.

joseph dawton

Hmm. Knowledge is power, it gives us the power to make informed choices or misinformed ones if the source of that knowledge is corrupted.

For that reason I no longer have a TV (I have a video monitor hooked up to video and DVD), also I no longer listen to commericial or buy newspapers. Occasionally I read some news on the internet from carefully selected sources. The pointof this is that I am in control of where I get information, I choose what influences my life rather than accepting the widely accepted sources which are heavily manipulated by commercial and political interests.

As Dagon pointed out if we don't question anything we cannot grow as people. If we choose that easy road then we might as well live like sheep in total ignorance with its spiritual and intellectual darkness. Personally I would rather shuffle off this mortal coil than live under anesthesia!

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