Fitz Round of each cash game hand

biteme

Right just thought I'd post this hand as I wanted to see how people would play it differently or what your thought process would be for the hand.

Blinds are 1-2 and it's Hold 'em. There's no great players at the table. I have about 600 with the next biggest stack at about 350.
I'm UTG with AQo and make it 7 to go. Two callers.

Flop comes Qd Jd 2c.

I bet 25 and get one caller behind me. The caller is the next biggest stack at the table.

Turn is 8s.

I bet 75 and it's made 300 by the caller.

Now the question I have is what's your thought process when your deciding to call or fold? What range of hands do you put him on?

Culchie

I don't play cash games, but immediately I put him on 9 10 and a made straight, and I fold.

I'll keep quiet now for the rest of the thread, and watch and learn.

Hectorjelly

Unless this guy is a moron or is playing superaggressively this is a fold. I wouldnt be overly concerned about 9T, but I would be worried about a set or two pair. The type of hands that reraise the turn massively in a raised pot can usually beat any one pair hand.

padser

it would have been a pretty loose call on 9 10 when it raised pre flop.

Id say queens, jacks, mabey even QJs. The thing is that QK s also a possibility.

No doubt though... im folding

What happened??


*edit* when i say queens or jacks ......obviosly i meant a set

Ste05

I notice you don't give any details about this guy, and whether he's any good or not, but seeing as you say the table wasn't great and he had a decent stack, I'll assume he's a good enough player, and you were both chopping up the donating fish, but obviously all the below might change if it turns out he was a loose aggressive player that's built up his stack by getting lucky.

My view on this one, would be that he has trips, or an over pair. I don't think you can call a big bet like this with simply TPTK, you asked the right questions, you bet the pot, were called, bet it again and a big re-raise, he must put you on at least AK (possibly suited in d's) or AQ, or an over-pair here, but what else do you think he puts you on, that he can't beat??

I think it's highly unlikely he has 910 unless it's suited in d's to call pre-flop and to continue with a call on this particular flop for a pot sized bet, but that would be very loose!!
The best case scenario for you here would be that he has a flush draw, maybe AKd, Axd, and called with the intention of going over the top on the turn regardless of whether a d falls or not and hoping to take this pot down here. But this is highly unlikely and you'd need a good read on this guy to put him on this.

I think this was played fine, except with such a coordinated board, it might have been the time to over bet the pot slightly on the flop, so as to give you some decent information....

Looking forward to hearing how it worked out,

Ollieboy

Firstly, your bet on the preflop was to weak, it should have been 15 to 20, this would have given you a clear idea of what sort of cards these guys would have been holding.

I agree with Hector, he's holding QJ, or JJ. With his stack, I cant believe he's playing 9 10, unless there suit. It could also be KK, but he would have raised with AA or KK before this. I dont think the 8 had any effect on the hand and I cant see him holding 22 or 88.

I would like to fold here, but with over a 100 invest, thats a tough call. But 225 is a big call and I'm sure I would fold. But I dont think A Q is good enough. I would really need to see his range of hands before this to give a better idea. I dont think he's bluffing, because you raised UTG, so its likely you hit the flop with QJ.

So what happen?

padser

Ste05 wrote:

My view on this one, would be that he has trips, or an over pair.

The reason i lefft out an overpair was because i think he would have re raised pre flop with one. If it KK to take down the pot there and then in case an A falls, if it was AA to play heads up rather then 3 handed.

Lafortezza

Ollieboy wrote:

Firstly, your bet on the preflop was to weak, it should have been 15 to 20, this would have given you a clear idea of what sort of cards these guys would have been holding.

It's pot limit, so the max biteme can make it is €7 preflop from UTG. Even if it was NL, who raises 10xBB UTG with AQo?

And I think it's an easy fold there's not too many hands AQ is ahead of after the reraise on the turn.

Ste05

Ollieboy wrote:

Firstly, your bet on the preflop was to weak, it should have been 15 to 20, this would have given you a clear idea of what sort of cards these guys would have been holding.

Absolutely not!! :eek: :eek: You're only getting yourself in a world of trouble with this bet, it's only AQo!! You're only going to get called by hands that have you crippled, and you're out of position, this would be fine late in a tourney, but certaintly not cash games!!

Some people even advocate folding AQ off UTG, (not me, but some - a la Ed Miller and Sklansky, in SSHE)

Ste05

padser wrote:

The reason i lefft out an overpair was because i think he would have re raised pre flop with one. If it KK to take down the pot there and then in case an A falls, if it was AA to play heads up rather then 3 handed.

Possibly, but without knowing the players, it's hard to say, I don't think you're guaranteed the BB will call here, it is an UTG raise after all, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: and so the button might just smooth call to disguise the strength of his hand and let the original bettor bet into him after the flop.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

It's pot limit, so the max biteme can make it is €7 preflop from UTG. Even if it was NL, who raises 10xBB UTG with AQo?

Who raises 10bb with anything!

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

Who raises 10bb with anything!

LMAO, very dry HJ!!!

NickyOD

You're overbetting the pot biteme. There's no need to bet 25 on the flop. 18/20 is plenty. 75 is too much on the turn also. You need to keep the pot smaller and under control when out of position. Got to fold to that raise o the turn though. You could have saved yourself about €30.

karlh

fold, but do it preflop.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

You're overbetting the pot Steo. There's no need to bet 25 on the flop. 18/20 is plenty. 75 is too much on the turn also. You need to keep the pot smaller and under control when out of position. Got to fold to that raise o the turn though. You could have saved yourself about €30.

??? On the flop??? I think a pot sized be is too predictable, and a slightly bigger bet, maybe 10 more could have saved 65 on the turn??

Would you not have bet the turn?? I see where you're coming with keeping the pot under control with a smaller bet, but if you intend to fire two bullets you need to have more info IMHO..
I don't think you'd advocate firing a weak second bullet!!!

EDIT: Ah I see you were referring to Biteme - Never mind.

biteme

Rest of hand.

Well I thought about it for a minute and then folded. The only hands I could put him on were Kq, Qj, 9t, possibly a queen with a weaker kicker and maybe a set but I thought this quite unlikely.

I think it'd be quite difficult to make a call here. I just didn't think I had enough information about the hand. I turned over my hand when folding to see if I could get him to do the same as I wanted to get the information of how he was playing and also do a spot of advertising. It worked and he turned over QsTd. I was quite suprised at the way he played the hand. I think he played it quite poorly, I understand that it's a semi bluff. I don't think he has enough information to be able to go over the top and I don't see how he can think he's ahead.

Regarding the comments about the small raise preflop and bets later. It's a pot limit game and I bet the pot every time I bet. I actually slightly over bet it on the flop.

NickyOD

biteme wrote:

Regarding the comments about the small raise preflop and bets later. It's a pot limit game and I bet the pot every time I bet. I actually slightly over bet it on the flop.

Why always bet the pot just because its pot limit? If its No Limit do you bet the pot every time?

biteme

NickyOD wrote:

Why always bet the pot just because its pot limit? If its No Limit do you bet the pot every time?

Yes. If it was no limit I would bet close or around the size of the pot.
The reason I bet the pot each time is that it would be seen as odd in that game not to bet the pot. So what would you bet on the flop/turn instead? 20 on flop and 50 on turn?

Ollieboy

Risky play by him and I didnt realise its Pot Limit, but I except the point on the big preflop raise by ste05.

I think Nicky point do was very valid, keeping the betting under control from an early position.

I would have like to seen his face if you had called. He must have put you on Ace King.

NickyOD

biteme wrote:

Yes. If it was no limit I would bet close or around the size of the pot.
The reason I bet the pot each time is that it would be seen as odd in that game not to bet the pot. So what would you bet on the flop/turn instead? 20 on flop and 50 on turn?

2/3 the pot on the flop is standard. There's no need to bet more. You need to keep the pot small out of position.

If you flop a set or the nuts will you still bet the pot?

biteme

NickyOD wrote:

2/3 the pot on the flop is standard. There's no need to bet more. You need to keep the pot small out of position.

If you flop a set or the nuts will you still bet the pot?

Yes. I don't like giving huge information about the strength of my hand through my bets.

An omaha hand a couple of hands previous i had bet the pot all the way with the nut straight and open ended straight flush draw. Hit the royal flush on the river pairing the board with aces and got paid off by a lower flush. The pot was about 630. Betting the pot is quite profitable in this game.

Ste05

NickyOD wrote:

2/3 the pot on the flop is standard. There's no need to bet more. You need to keep the pot small out of position.

If you flop a set or the nuts will you still bet the pot?

I think you might have missed a point Biteme made that is quite important here too Nicky

biteme wrote:

it would be seen as odd in that game not to bet the pot

NickyOD

Ste05 wrote:

I think you might have missed a point Biteme made that is quite important here too Nicky

What's that?

I think betting the pot out of position with a vulnerable hand is a bit nuts really.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

I think betting the pot out of position with a vulnerable hand is a bit nuts really.

This is the €50 game in the Fitz. It's very loose. You should be betting mainly for value. You want someone with Q4o to call you, and it's not unlikely. If you bet 3/4 of the pot or so, yeah, you save €10 when you are losing, but you gain €10 when you are ahead AND being called by a worse hand.

I still think I would have folded, depending on who the player was.

Ste05

Fair enough, but surely that only really leaves you with a check call to keep the pot small, surely a decent player will smell a small bet as either (a) weak or (b) strong, and will go over the top to find out which one it is??? Then you are in a situation where the pot is even more out of control and you have even less information than before.

Alternatively, he will fold which presumably is what you want, a small bet to try and take it down, and fold to a re-raise??
While it is a vulnerable hand, it's still TPTK, after you have raised pre-flop, the button calls and you're first to act???

EDIT: Response to NickyOD

Marq

Nicky: This is coming from a guy who on another thread said that he always makes the same size raise:).

I don't think that the OP is over betting here. I think these bets are fine, particularly as Roundtower points out that in this specific game someone may call you all the way down with Q4o.

NickyOD

Marq wrote:

Nicky: This is coming from a guy who on another thread said that he always makes the same size raise:)..

He's not raising he's betting. You shouuld know that.

Marq

Thanks. Pedant. Ugly, not thick.

Mark J

only play cash online. never live just tourneys.

haven`t read the rest of the replies as not to bias my response/though process,
anyway here`s what i`d think.

he either has Q/J, prob knows you`ve a Q with better kicker and wants to take it down now.

it could be a semi-bluff, raisng that much to take you off the pot but if he hits his diamond, he`s quids in.

coulda called with 9/10d and you f*cked!

you said there were no great players, so maybe if he was loose enough he coulda been chasing his 8 and got it, dunno really.

i`ll go read the other replies now!

Mark J

oh, don`t know if my response made any sense as i`ve never played any other type of poker than NL.