"You got it in when you were ahead"

The Snapper

"You got it in when you were ahead"

We hear this remark often in hand analysis. Its a subject I ponder a lot. The maths theorists preach taking the best of it consistently is +EV and I can understand in cash play how this is unquestionable logic.

However, tourney play throws some different factors into the scenario, for example, go in a 60/40 favourite is good strategy, but, lose and your out of the tourney.

Any other differences applying this between cash and tourney play. ?

What thoughts on the principle etc.?

Rnger

Ive heard some people claim your going to have to go on a 60/40 race (if not worse odds - nines against AKs) in MTT. I think this is a load of ****.

Poker isnt suposed to be like playing red on roulette

Shortstack

I dont think I have ever won a tournament without winning a few 50/50's or 60/40's all in preflop (not necessarily me all in). At some stage in a tournament you are going to have to play pots preflop and at some stages it is right to put all your chips in as a 60/40 underdog if necessary. Obviously you always want to be a massive favourite but unless you have you own two private Aces up your sleeve this is not going to be the case.

The key is to build chips early when there is more post flop play so that in the latter pre flop stages you are not busted when playing pre-flop hands.

If you don't want to take chances on 60/40's then take up limit and get used to even more suckouts~!

DeVore

Rnger wrote:

Ive heard some people claim your going to have to go on a 60/40 race (if not worse odds - nines against AKs) in MTT. I think this is a load of ****.

Poker isnt suposed to be like playing red on roulette

Ok, but if I FORCE you to play and you refuse anything but better then 60/40, then you are only going to play big pairs and AK and maybe AQ (the latter two ONLY when you feel I have Kx or Qx respectively... ie: I'm bluffing).

If thats the case you wont be in any 60/40's alright... except the one when you are forced in on the blinds at the very end when you are blinded down to feck all!

The reality is that if you come up against a scandie-Gus-Hansen-Alike.... you have to be willing to stick it in on any Ace (preferably reraising the little nordie c*nt ) because he's FORCING you to gamble.

This is why a lot of Irish tournies turn into preflop shove-fests at the lower entry levels. The players arent experienced enough to play the flop and so they want to put their money down when they KNOW what they have and reckon its good.

If you find yourself on this sort of table, sure you can wait till you get a big hand and take your shot, but is JJ big enough? QQ?
Any ace has you at 75:25 (slightly worse for you but lets say). Any bigger pair (unlikely but possible) really has you stitched. So you wait this long for an increase of 15%?

I hate shove-or-fold poker but the unfortunate thing is, some people want to deskill the game because 60:40 is better odds then they have if they try and play the hand properly
You can't afford to let them nicked your lunch...

DeV.
ps: In cash games, these people buy you new jackets and an xbox in the long run etc...

NickyOD

If the tourney has a really soft structure then you can goa long way without getting most of your chips in preflop but in the vast majority of tournaments you will have to start pushing at some point unless you have been very lucky.

I probably go all in preflop more than any other player I know. I just cannot understand how players can keep limping into pots when they are shortstacked and just bleed away their chips. The just LOVE to see flops.

Recently in the events at the southcourt... 2 players limp in and I push with 63o in the SB. I take it down preflop. 4 handed in a €50 SnG Average stack is 7BBs. button limps in and I push for just 4BBs in the SB with JQo. All fold. (Button then had just 2.5BBs left)

Final table at the southcourt last night I was standing behind the the player in the BB who had 10BBs left. 3 players limp in and he pushes with A4. All fold and he increases his stack by 40%!!!

Flops are for wimps.

Culchie

DeVore wrote:

This is why a lot of Irish tournies turn into preflop shove-fests at the lower entry levels. The players arent experienced enough to play the flop and so they want to put their money down when they KNOW what they have and reckon its good.

......

I hate shove-or-fold poker but the unfortunate thing is, some people want to deskill the game because 60:40 is better odds then they have if they try and play the hand properly
You can't afford to let them nicked your lunch...

I think (especially at the level of 90% of the people reading here) another reason that there is alot or preflop shove or fold poker, is the starting stacks and blind level structures in tournaments, so unfortunately it becomes that type of game.

You can be chip leader on the final table of a 90 player MTT yet still only have 5 or 6 BB's
You play any hand post flop from a starting stack of 1000 chips, and don't win the first hand, then you are under the cosh straight away.


What you say is right, and in the long term, players are not developing post-flop play skills, which isn't good.

"I probably go all in preflop more than any other player I know"

thats probably why your a crap poker player. any half decent player will attempt to get a 3-1 margin before putting all their chips in pre flop, unless they have AA or KK, the blinds are large at the final table or its heads up.

your strategy will get you beat because you do it enough times over the space of a night, and some other idiot, or should i say 'clown' who is thinkin similarly to you will put his chips in and get lucky! And bang your out of the tournament.
you use an aggressive strategy post flop because it works well with reads and a good poker brain. Pre flop negates skill. That is plain to see when you turn on one of the various poker channels and see the game turn into a sham when people start shovin their chips in.
Stick to freerolls chump

The Snapper

The Snapper wrote:

"You got it in when you were ahead"

"We hear this remark often in hand analysis. Its a subject I ponder a lot. "

I think this aint a preflop phrase. Get your chips when you know someone is drawing etc........because the difference in being ahead pre flop and post flop is huge. Its all about maximising your odds, and your not really doing that pre flop if you give the opponent three other extra cards to draw.

Lafortezza

Deleted User wrote:

"I probably go all in preflop more than any other player I know"

thats probably why your a crap poker player. any half decent player will attempt to get a 3-1 margin before putting all their chips in pre flop, unless they have AA or KK, the blinds are large at the final table or its heads up.

your strategy will get you beat because you do it enough times over the space of a night, and some other idiot, or should i say 'clown' who is thinkin similarly to you will put his chips in and get lucky! And bang your out of the tournament.
you use an aggressive strategy post flop because it works well with reads and a good poker brain. Pre flop negates skill. That is plain to see when you turn on one of the various poker channels and see the game turn into a sham when people start shovin their chips in.
Stick to freerolls chump

Banned for a week for personal abuse. It's easy to make your points without the insults.

NickyOD

Deleted User wrote:

"I probably go all in preflop more than any other player I know"

thats probably why your a crap poker player. any half decent player will attempt to get a 3-1 margin before putting all their chips in pre flop, unless they have AA or KK, the blinds are large at the final table or its heads up.

your strategy will get you beat because you do it enough times over the space of a night, and some other idiot, or should i say 'clown' who is thinkin similarly to you will put his chips in and get lucky! And bang your out of the tournament.
you use an aggressive strategy post flop because it works well with reads and a good poker brain. Pre flop negates skill. That is plain to see when you turn on one of the various poker channels and see the game turn into a sham when people start shovin their chips in.
Stick to freerolls chump

If the strategy is misunderstood then its because you are not as experienced a player as I am. The fact of the matter is that 90% of the tournaments that people play in this country have low blinds and short levels because that is the nature of low buy in events. There is such a thing as being a very good 2 card or preflop player as well as a good postflop player. You need to clever enough to know when to pick your spots simple as that, and many players in this years WSOP went deep in the main event by playing mostly preflop.

Ste05

I don't think you need to defend yourself here Nicky, anyone who has a basic understanding of poker respects most, if not everything you say on this board. I for one look for advice from players like you alot here and appreciate it when I get it.

accensi0n

Ste05 wrote:

I don't think you need to defend yourself here Nicky, anyone who has a basic understanding of poker respects most, if not everything you say on this board. I for one look for advice from players like you alot here and appreciate it when I get it.

"POP!"

Oh dear lord, nicky's head just exploded!

Ste05

lol

hotspur

Most important lesson you'll ever learn in hold em? Hold em is a postflop game Course as Mr ODea said if you're short stacked in a tourny whatcha gonna do hope to hit a flop???!

Hitman Actual

NickyOD wrote:

The fact of the matter is that 90% of the tournaments that people play in this country have low blinds and short levels because that is the nature of low buy in events.

Exactly. The money is rarely deep enough for there to be betting on every street. The betting ends either preflop or on the flop. It's easy to say that players are generally poor post-flop players, but the tight structures dont allow people to play post-flop often enough to improve.

In saying that, even Harrington recognises that tournament players come in two different categories: Good pre-flop players and good post-flop players. And if you take someone like Andy Black, most of his hands in the WSOP this year ended pre-flop, e.g. the first big hand on the second last day: Ivey raises on the button, Black re-raises on the BB, Ivey re-raises, Black goes all-in, Ivey folds, Black shows A2o. Thats a big play, and not everyone can do it.

Regarding the 60/40 edge, that's pretty damn big. You'd be well blinded away if you were waiting for a 3/1 edge to get your money in, even if you were good enough to be able to find one. The thinking behind waiting for a better edge is that a) You're a much better player than your opponents, and b) You have time to find that better edge. For the tournaments we play in, neither of those statements hold through, imho.

ntlbell

lenny_leonard wrote:

e.g. the first big hand on the second last day: Ivey raises on the button, Black re-raises on the BB, Ivey re-raises, Black goes all-in, Ivey folds, Black shows A2o. Thats a big play, and not everyone can do it.

It's a big play because Andy did it, and got away with it.

If you or I tried this, the button would end up having some monster and we'd be walking out the door with our tail between our legs, logging on to boards moaning about what an idiot mistake you made, possibly post your hand here and everyone would cream you for getting all-in with A2o.

Hitman Actual

ntlbell wrote:

It's a big play because Andy did it, and got away with it.

If you or I tried this, the button would end up having some monster and we'd be walking out the door with our tail between our legs, logging on to boards moaning about what an idiot mistake you made, possibly post your hand here and everyone would cream you for getting all-in with A2o.

The point I was trying to make was that even at the highest level, being a good pre-flop player is very important. I can remember Andy Black winning a lot of pots with pre-flop aggression. It takes a lot of skill to be able to able to pick spots where you can win pots uncontested preflop. This is not as important in cash games, where patience pays off, but in tournaments it can keep you alive when you're running card dead.

kincsem

Selective pre-flop aggression might pay for a respected name player .....
but as soon as pre-flop all-ins or big raises becomes your only weapon players notice it and you get tagged :eek: when someone gets a real hand.
When I see a player I don't recognise wearing out the felt by pushing his stack into the centre I would like to have a last-longer side bet with him. He was been watching edited highlights of Hold Em on TV and thinks that every hand is all-in. And I don't think that their strategy is either win-it-all or lose early. They just don't know enough. They seldom win. Their friend is 10 minute blinds. Over the long haul they have little chance. The good ones learn to fill out their game.

Last night (Thursday freeroll) at the Fitz when the final table sat down I commented that there would be an all-in on the first hand. Sure enough a newbie went all-in and lost half his big stack. He was all-in again on the second hand with AQ v AK, got lucky, and hit a Q. He started with chips about 10 times the smallest stack. He did not have the experience to let the others beat each other up before he got involved.

ntlbell

kincsem wrote:

Last night (Thursday freeroll) at the Fitz when the final table sat down I commented that there would be an all-in on the first hand. Sure enough a newbie went all-in and lost half his big stack. He was all-in again on the second hand with AQ v AK, got lucky, and hit a Q. He started with chips about 10 times the smallest stack. He did not have the experience to let the others beat each other up before he got involved.

In my expirience of the fitz, only been about 3 times on a thursday, but it's not just newbie's who do this, I could count the amount of hands that _didn't_ have someone all-in in the first two hour on one hand, it's a bit of a joke really.