Vegas Nights on FM 104

roryc

Just caught the tale end of some discussion on 'pub poker' on FM104. Some woman came on complaining about the legality of it all. The presenter (think it was Adrian Kennedy) then claimed it was 'illegal under the Intoxicating Liquor Act which states that gambling is illegal in pubs....'

Anyway, along comes Mick from Vegas Nights to 'explain the situation' by saying 'its a grey area!'.

Now as far as I know, tournaments in pubs are only allowed as long as its chips being used, not cash - ie cash games ARE illegal in pubs, but not tournaments. Is that right??

Anyway Vegas Nights got some 'shameless advertising' out of it so all is not bad!

willis

Met your man from vegas nights at poker.ie tourny...sound as a pound. With regards illegality your guess is as good as mine. Me thinks that the government will soon need to clarify the situiation due to the continued growth of poker

Lafortezza

willis wrote:

Me thinks that the government will soon need to clarify the situiation due to the continued growth of poker

You think they might regulated it for the good of the game? /sarcasm

Culchie

Providing the lads that are running the tourneys are declaring their income (lol ), then I can't see what the government would have to complain about.

The publicans are certainly happy to see people in their pubs on mid-week nights, and by default the government benefit with their massive excise duty and VAT revenue on drink.

DubTony

OMG ... gambling and drinking in the same place? McDowell will have a conservative field day when he gets his hand on this one. Obviously he'll have to protect the innocent from the sharks of Irish poker. One bad beat and it could all be over.

karlh

i heard reports of people having 'fun' down my local last night.

think they should all be cavity searched, set on fire, shot, and put in the paper tbh.

super_furry

Finished second at a tournament of theirs down the Cuckoo's Nest last night. I reckon they're by far the best pub crowd organising games and the only lot that seem to know what they're doing.

hotspur

Yeah there's little doubt that under the current legislation they are illegal. The police can shut them down if they want, and they have been shut down down the country on occassion. Even if it wasn't in a pub it would be illegal if the promoters made a profit. Ho hum. Expect some hysteria over it next month when Sporting Emporium opens.

NickyOD

hotspur wrote:

Yeah there's little doubt that under the current legislation they are illegal. The police can shut them down if they want, and they have been shut down down the country on occassion. Even if it wasn't in a pub it would be illegal if the promoters made a profit. Ho hum. Expect some hysteria over it next month when Sporting Emporium opens.

I don't understand how it is illegal. What's the difference between a poker tournament and a 5 a side soccer tournament where every team pays an entry fee and the winner gets a cash prize. I thought the law was against cash games, not tournaments.

DeVore

hotspur wrote:

Yeah there's little doubt that under the current legislation they are illegal. The police can shut them down if they want, and they have been shut down down the country on occassion. Even if it wasn't in a pub it would be illegal if the promoters made a profit. Ho hum. Expect some hysteria over it next month when Sporting Emporium opens.

Because Dermot Desmond isnt lining the pockets of the FF parlimentary party machine???

I think you might find that there will be regulations brought in to legalise card rooms then!

Tournaments are legal btu cash games are not. You can charge a "management fee" for the tournie but it should be declared for tax purposes.

DeV.

roryc

Yeh Dev thats how I thought it was. It should be seen as no different than a soccer tournament or quiz

MrPillowTalk

super_furry wrote:

Finished second at a tournament of theirs down the Cuckoo's Nest last night. I reckon they're by far the best pub crowd organising games and the only lot that seem to know what they're doing.

These guys are jokers, was at one gig of theirs in the bloody stream in Howth, these were the problems,

1) Prize fund did not represent the ammount of buyins and rebuys (of which there were plenty).

2) After it got heads up the two lads were quite evenly stacked at which point the vegas nights crew decided a chip count to decide first place was the way to go. There was 3bb difference in the stacks and the short stack was forced to accept second place prize money. I can appreciate that they may have been under pressure to finish up but can anyone think of a more unfair way of ending the game?

I certainly wont be jplaying there games anyway, also they are clueless on the rules. I asked for a ruling on a raise and was greeted by eh eh eh eh ...... etc you get my drift.

pokertroll

DeVore wrote:

Because Dermot Desmond isnt lining the pockets of the FF parlimentary party machine???

I think you might find that there will be regulations brought in to legalise card rooms then!

Tournaments are legal btu cash games are not. You can charge a "management fee" for the tournie but it should be declared for tax purposes.

DeV.

Sporting Emporium will be the same as all the other clubs but they have 2 bars with free drink.

Tom, I'll pass on your comments to Dermo!

Cianos

Yeah cash games are stricly illegal, but tournaments are in fact legal. As long as everyone has an equal chance of winning (god bless the popular misconecption of poker!), all stakes are equal per player and the promoters do not profit (except for covering expenses - hence the grey area) all is fine and dandy.

Why do these busy bodies ring up and start such a fuss over a game of cards anyway?!

hotspur

These tournaments are not legal. Below are the relevant parts on unlawful gaming from the Gaming & Lotteries Act, 1956. These tournament operators make a profit, it would be a matter for them to try to persuade the court that they were only covering expenses, but the dogs in the street know that they are not. The chances of all players are clearly not equal in a poker tournament. Illegal and multiple stakes are wagered by the players.
Pasted from the Act-

4.—(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming—

( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or

( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play, or

( c ) by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10.

(2) Such gaming is in this Act referred to as unlawful gaming.

(3) Gaming shall not be unlawful if no stake is hazarded by the players with the promoter or banker other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that—

( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and

( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and

( c ) the promoter derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game.

5.—No person shall open, keep or use any building, room or place, enclosed or unenclosed, or permit it to be opened, kept or used for unlawful gaming or take part in the care and management of or in any way assist in conducting the business of any building, room or place so opened, kept or used.
Also in section 43:


43.—It shall not be necessary in support of a prosecution in relation to unlawful gaming to prove that any person found playing at any game was playing for any money, wager or stake.

RoundTower

DeVore wrote:

Because Dermot Desmond isnt lining the pockets of the FF parlimentary party machine???

I think you might find that there will be regulations brought in to legalise card rooms then!

I think the idea is that Desmond might find some way to make life miserable for the Fitz and the Merrion.

Ste05

I think you'll find that if a certain portion of the prize fund is donated to charity there is a loop hole in this legislation, nearly all of these "pub tournaments" purport to hold these tournaments for charitable purposes, (certainly all the ones I've attended) with a certain % of the prize fund donated to charity. And thereby side stepping the legislation. Although I couldn't be bothered to look up the legislation to confirm this, so I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but as far as I know this is the current legal stand point on these tournaments.

Ste05

Has there been an announcement as to when this new place is opening???

Lafortezza

Has anyone ever heard of the legislation being acted upon? Like a tournament being shut down?
Ever?

Healio

Section 9 is interesting:

9.—(1) The licensee of premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquor shall not permit gaming on the premises.

(2) This section shall not prohibit the licensee or his private friends from playing cards for stakes in a part of the premises other than that in which the sale of intoxicating liquor generally takes place if the friends are being entertained by him at his own expense.

(3) This section does not apply to the playing of a game where no stake is hazarded by the players other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that—

( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and
( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and
( c ) the promoter (if any) derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game.
(4) A conviction for an offence under this section shall, if the Court in its discretion so thinks proper, be recorded on the licence.

Healio

Section 33 of the betting act:
33.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person while in Saorstát Éireann to make or enter into or attempt to make or enter into a bet with a person who is then outside Saorstát Eireann or to employ, commission, or instruct or attempt to employ, commission, or instruct any person who is for the time being outside Saorstát Ereann to make or enter into a bet for him or on his behalf. (2) Every person who makes or enters into or attempts to make or enter into a bet in contravention of this section or who employs, commissions, or instructs any person to make or enter into a bet in contravention of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to an excise penalty of one hundred pounds.

(3) Nothing in this section shall render it unlawful for a licensed bookmaker while in Saorstát Eireann to make or enter into a bet with a person who is then outside Saorstát Éireann and does not carry on business as a bookmaker.

Does that not make online gambling illegal in ireland?

jobless

MrPillowTalk wrote:

These guys are jokers, was at one gig of theirs in the bloody stream in Howth, these were the problems,

1) Prize fund did not represent the ammount of buyins and rebuys (of which there were plenty).

2) After it got heads up the two lads were quite evenly stacked at which point the vegas nights crew decided a chip count to decide first place was the way to go. There was 3bb difference in the stacks and the short stack was forced to accept second place prize money. I can appreciate that they may have been under pressure to finish up but can anyone think of a more unfair way of ending the game?

I certainly wont be jplaying there games anyway, also they are clueless on the rules. I asked for a ruling on a raise and was greeted by eh eh eh eh ...... etc you get my drift.

i played one of their tournies last monday also....by no way do they pay out near the amount in prize money that they take in from the crowd in rebuys etc....these guys are robbers..but do it while smiling at you.....
i wont be playing in their tournaments again....

Can anyone recommend and other pub games that are good value?.....probably not

Culchie

AUL tomorrow night has a bar, €3.70 a pint as well see other thread