FF Voters - if the next election goes wrong...

...as a FF voter myself, if they lose the next general Election, wonder how long you're going to give it before wringing your hands about the state of the country?

If contracts don't come within budget immediately I will start whinging about living in a rip off republic.

If people don't start getting operations the minute they request them within 6 months, I'll start making comments about a third world health service in a first world country.

If every town and village in Ireland doesn't have a brand spanking new school within 2/3 years, with a teacher for every student, I'll complain that we are doing nothing for the future of the country.

If house prices don't halve, I'll say that the Government has the interests of big developers at heart. If the price of a pint doesn't halve, I'll say they have the interests of publicans at heart.

If we don't put everyone working on bogs forthwith, I'll complain that we're in hock to multinationals. if we do I will comlpain that here is no future in fossil fuel and the government are doing nothing for the environment.

And if the (insert name of Minister for Justice) ever suggests there is any problem with immigrants or the Northern peace process, I will spend the remainder of his term calling him a jack booted Nazi fascist.

I'm looking forward to opposition already...

Lemming

Tell me, having listed all of the above - which is a fairly damning indictment of the gross and neglegent mismangement of the country - why are you a FF voter?

Because mommy and daddy are? :rolleyes:

I want to here YOUR reasons for voting for (and continuing to support) FF in the first place. Why aren't you voting for whomever would appear to have (and likely to deliver) the best manifesto? Why aren't you voting for whomever appears to have the bset credibility and professional ability? Why just "vote FF"?

and "because ... " doesn't cut the mustard as a response.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

I want to here YOUR reasons for voting FF in the first place.

Because I remember what this country was like when Labour and FG had a good spell in Government in the 80s. I also believe the NI question is extremely important and should not be relegated to some side issue..

I like the smart comment about mommy and daddy though. About as strong an argument as saying the only reason you don't like them is because loike it's sooooo trendy now to have loike issues with the government loike. You got a beard and dungarees or just a pinko?

SnotNosedGit

I voted FF the last 2 times out.
I wont be voting FF again. I await options though and when the FF canvassers make an appearance at my door i have one question for them.

What mistakes have you made in the past and what have you learned from them?

If they cant answer honestly its going to be a broken nose for them

LFCFan

I don't like the argument 'Sure who else will I vote for'. The whole idea of voting this shower of muppets out is to show them that we will no longer put up with incompetance. And if the next government is as bad, we vote them out, FIRST time. If this continues, successive government will realise that they can no longer do a crap job or they will be out on their ear.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Because I remember what this country was like when Labour and FG had a good spell in Government in the 80s.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Bertie government did not create the "Celtic Tiger". It simply presided over it. So FF aren't the glorious White Knights that you would have them portrayed as. Which lends credance to the "mommy and daddy" jibe.

I also believe the NI question is extremely important and should not be relegated to some side issue..

And what makes you think that current politicians in the other parties are not going to relegate it to some side issue. The current crop of politicians within FF have been shown time and again to be inept and clueless. How about looking at what a politician's (and their relevant party) policies of the day rather than some "rule of thumb" that's quite out of step and possibly (and probably) quite quite wrong.

Incidentally, whatever the majority of the citizenry want dealt with is what is deemed an extremely important issue. Just thought I'd point that out.

I like the smart comment about mommy and daddy though. About as strong an argument as saying the only reason you don't like them is because loike it's sooooo trendy now to have loike issues with the government loike. You got a beard and dungarees or just a pinko?

The reason I made the remark about 'mommy and daddy' is because most voters in this country vote like this. Given how "hardcore FF" you would appear to be, it stands to reason this is your view.

And no, I'm not a pinko. I'm just anti-bullsh*t.

Incidentally, reported for abuse.

Hobbes

Unless FF get an overwheming majority they are out of here. Other groups have already said they are happy to form a rainbow colition to get them out.

And the "mommy and daddy" voting method is probably why FF have so many votes.

Gurgle

Hobbes wrote:

Unless FF get an overwheming majority they are out of here.

I'll believe it when I see it.
& though I wouldn't give them my 10th vote, there are no other parties who can even mount an election campaign. atm i'd vote SIPTU into government just to see what happened.

Hobbes

Considering they never had a major majority before in previous elections and had to do a rainbow to get in can't see this being much different.

Mind you the company that won the contract for the electronic voting (by bidding way higher then any of the others) was an ex FF guy. But then last I heard those machines were all scrapped at taxpayers expense.

stevenmu

I've been a FF voter too but next time out I'm either not going to vote or deliberatly spoil. There's no way I'll vote for them again this time, but the opposition is worse. All see to be able to do is point out how bad FF are without presenting how they'd be any better themselves, even when asked in interviews they dodge the question. If FF are so bad and the opposition still can't come up with anything better it really makes me doubt their competency.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

Incidentally, reported for abuse.

Tell me you are joking. You can't be serious. You actually went to the mods to bail you out over my remarks?

If mods want to examine this thread, I would have thought that the trolling in your initial post would be the issue worth examining - but I didn't feel it necessary to trouble them really, I'm sure they have plenty enough to do.

So please, was that some joke that I missed or did you actually get highly offended whilst think making an analogy that someone was childish and needed their parents for guidance was perfectly okay? If anything, I would have thought that some people might like having beards, or dungarees, or being mildly socialist, noone likes to be dismissed as childish...but tbh it didn't really bother me...

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Other groups have already said they are happy to form a rainbow colition to get them out.

And the "mommy and daddy" voting method is probably why FF have so many votes.

That's not exactly constructive policy, cobbling anything together to make up the numbers. But I too share your suspicion that the opposition is devoid of real policy, and they will get votes from many who won't need incisive policy, but just hate FF and the PDs. That's why you have parties from the left hand end of the spectrum like the Greens having to decide policy with more right wing groups like FG and the Labour Party.

As for 'mommy and daddy', do FF just follow that trend, whereas Labour and FG pick up the young educated type who read policies and make a conscious decision that FG are better? That's just intellectual snobbery with echoes of the 'flawed pedigree' comment. I suspect so many vote FF because they are a heck of a lot better off in real terms than they were in 1987. Let's start with employment rates...

The Muppet

Lemming wrote:

Tell me, having listed all of the above - which is a fairly damning indictment of the gross and neglegent mismangement of the country - why are you a FF voter?

Because mommy and daddy are? :rolleyes:

Have to say that comment is very condescending to the OP. While what you say may be accurate for years gone by I think you'll find Ireland has moved on, people are far better educated and informed and quite capable of forming their own opinions with the need to copy Mammy or Daddy.

It may not be chic to Vote FF but the opposition have done very little to offer a credible alternative.

BTW I'm a floating voter before you ask.

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote:

Have to say that comment is very condescending to the OP.

I thought so too, but sticks and stones/live and let live and all that. Unfortunately others don't share that outlook, but I respect their views...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hobbes

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Because they won't be able to form the rainbow this time. Other sides have already said they are willing to join together to oust FF (was on the news a while back).

regi

I think its fair enough to expect a 6-12 month honeymoon period for any new government.

I wouldn't like to see FF win an overall majority, however.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Tell me you are joking. You can't be serious. You actually went to the mods to bail you out over my remarks?

I'm not asking anyone to fight my battles for me. I questioned your rationale - it's a given that a vast swathe of voters in this country do, and always have, voted along the mentality of "mommy and daddy vote for X so must I".

Condescending, possibly, but in this context I think not. Trolling, most definintely not. You choose instead to respond with direct name-calling, ie. an insult.

If mods want to examine this thread, I would have thought that the trolling in your initial post would be the issue worth examining - but I didn't feel it necessary to trouble them really, I'm sure they have plenty enough to do.

Well let me say it again. I was not, nor am now, trolling. I asked you a direct question. I challenge your "I vote FF because .... well I dunno ... just because" mentality.

So please, was that some joke that I missed or did you actually get highly offended whilst think making an analogy that someone was childish and needed their parents for guidance was perfectly okay?

Once again read my above remarks.

I might also highlight the fact that you did not respond to a single question I raised, other than to try and use the fact that I reported your insult as some sort of high-horse stick.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

As for 'mommy and daddy', do FF just follow that trend, whereas Labour and FG pick up the young educated type who read policies and make a conscious decision that FG are better? That's just intellectual snobbery with echoes of the 'flawed pedigree' comment.

I suspect so many vote FF because they are a heck of a lot better off in real terms than they were in 1987. Let's start with employment rates...[/QUOTE]

Now THAT is intellectual snobbery. Lets get one thing very very clear because you seem to skipping everything I write to get cheap shots in. Nowhere have I implied that FG or Labour or anyone else is better than FF. I'm asking why people don't stop voting with this sheep-like logic and question their representatives. See who actually has the policies that you want to see, rather than who just simply slates the opposition. Any f*cking two-bit f*cktard can point out what's wrong with a given situation. I don't want any two-bit f*cktard. And neither should anyone else.

If you want to look at employment rates, I'll bring you back to that wonderful little point which you so conveniently overlooked in your haste to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

The current FF government did not, the boom, create. They inherited it. And have somehow managed to squander vast amounts of money. And continue to do so in a rather damning track record of gross mismanagement and misappropriation of funds.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

The current FF government did not, the boom, create.

True, in fairness we should all remember Ray McSharry's influence.

Unless again you're going back to 1987?

Gurgle

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Independants, all the way.

They are most likely to actually show up, for a start.
The might even vote on issues in the Dail, rather than voting in favour of the companies who dropped the biggest cash bomb into the party coffers.
They don't have to tow any party line.
Most independants run for election in the hope of getting something specific done or changed.

Just think, if the majority of seats went to independant candidates, we might end up with something resembling a democracy.

Current system is a 2-party power play where both sides agendas are corrupted by corporate (financial) influence.

Nuttzz

Gurgle wrote:

Most independants run for election in the hope of getting something specific done or changed..

But they never seem to do so, for example Finan McGrath

Gurgle wrote:

Just think, if the majority of seats went to independant candidates, we might end up with something resembling a democracy..

or nothing would get do at all....!

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

True, in fairness we should all remember Ray McSharry's influence.

Unless again you're going back to 1987?

And again I'm going to ask you to actually answer the questions I posed to you regarding your opening post.

Gurgle

Nuttzz wrote:

But they never seem to do so, for example Finan McGrath

Theres not enough of them. The few that do get elected can be ignored by the parties. Even if they support each others issues, theres not enough votes to make a difference.

Nuttzz wrote:

or nothing would get do at all....!

Possible.
Worth the risk ?
Not much gets done as it is, half the party TDs don't bother showing up for the 2 days a week / 8 months a year the Dail is in session. When they do come in its just to cast their vote as per party instructions(having been absent during the debate).

Thats not representing their constituents.

stevenmu

I'd agree, I don't think the party based system works at all. The party(ies) in power spends more time defending itself from the opposition and media, and trying to retain power in the next election than it does trying to do what's best for the country. The opposition spends it's time trying to bring the sitting government down instead of being constructive, rubbishing it's policies instead of suggesting improvements or even agreeing completely where appropriate. This tends to lead to snap decisions being rushed through on whatever is the issue of the day so that the government isn't seen to be doing nothing about it, instead of a considered approach to actually finding the best solution as opposed to the best sound bite.

miju

stevenmu wrote:

I've been a FF voter too but next time out I'm either not going to vote or deliberatly spoil

PLEASE DONT spoil your vote this is exactly how the muppets in FF have been in power for so long and keep returning to power IMO.

vote for an indie candidate if you dont want to vote for a party

Hobbes

stevenmu wrote:

The opposition spends it's time trying to bring the sitting government down instead of being constructive, rubbishing it's policies instead of suggesting improvements or even agreeing completely where appropriate.

I disagree. While they may do it sometimes they do actually agree sometimes and some of the policies being rubbished tend to get good reasons to (but rarely make the press). For example about the electronic voting machines, that was discussed in a dail session but nothing came of it.

miju

Deleted User wrote:

...as a FF voter myself, if they lose the next general Election, wonder how long you're going to give it before wringing your hands about the state of the country?

If contracts don't come within budget immediately I will start whinging about living in a rip off republic.

If people don't start getting operations the minute they request them within 6 months, I'll start making comments about a third world health service in a first world country.

If every town and village in Ireland doesn't have a brand spanking new school within 2/3 years, with a teacher for every student, I'll complain that we are doing nothing for the future of the country.

If house prices don't halve, I'll say that the Government has the interests of big developers at heart. If the price of a pint doesn't halve, I'll say they have the interests of publicans at heart.

If we don't put everyone working on bogs forthwith, I'll complain that we're in hock to multinationals. if we do I will comlpain that here is no future in fossil fuel and the government are doing nothing for the environment.

And if the (insert name of Minister for Justice) ever suggests there is any problem with immigrants or the Northern peace process, I will spend the remainder of his term calling him a jack booted Nazi fascist.

I'm looking forward to opposition already...

oh yeah and theanswer to all these whinges would be because the next government would be cleaning up FF's mess

_raptor_

_raptor_ wrote:

oh yeah and theanswer to all these whinges would be because the next government would be cleaning up FF's mess

Ah yes, and of course they were still cleaning up after the Fitzgerald/Spring debacle, and they in turn were cleaning up after Lynch, who was cleaning up...in fact we could take that argument right back to the foundation of the State.

As a few here suggest Independants, can anyone tell me what is Jackie Healy Rae's track record on the Norn Iron question? What has the bold Jackie done for the Peace Process? And for that matter, what about Mildred Fox, or Finian McGrath, or any other Independant, or even Joe Higgins? I admire their ability, I admire that whole parish pump mentality and the Independant banging on about a hospital or television masts or Moore Street, but I wouldn't put them in charge of the country tbh...

miju

ok let me rephrase the next government would be busy cleaning up the mess left by FF-PD after the mass oversepnding and complete disregard for spending public money without any PROPER results.

Tell me Conor can you tell in all honesty / with hand in heart the FF-PD coalition haven't fucked up one thing after another?

and regardless of Fianna Failures past escepades the main reason I'm not voting for them is their ABSOLUTE ABUSE of power with the "Corridors Of Power" excerise IMO this is blatant use of the governments position to raise money to fight their election unfairly and all involved in bringing this idea to fruition should be hauled up in a public court (not a tribunal cos that will only cost another €10 trillion with no results whatsoever)

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Ah yes, and of course they were still cleaning up after the Fitzgerald/Spring debacle, and they in turn were cleaning up after Lynch, who was cleaning up...in fact we could take that argument right back to the foundation of the State.

Stop being facecious. You know fine well what he was alluding to. But if you want to get into that game, we can ask the current government why they haven't cleared up the mess left by predecessors, or more to the point, what have they done to attempt clearing up the mess.

The mess inherited is the fault of the last guy. The mess becomes your fault if you do nothign to redress it.

As a few here suggest Independants, can anyone tell me what is Jackie Healy Rae's track record on the Norn Iron question? What has the bold Jackie done for the Peace Process? And for that matter, what about Mildred Fox, or Finian McGrath, or any other Independant, or even Joe Higgins? I admire their ability, I admire that whole parish pump mentality and the Independant banging on about a hospital or television masts or Moore Street, but I wouldn't put them in charge of the country tbh...

The government (as would all politicians in the major parties in this country) would do well to remember that it is the people whom they serve. It is they who elect them. Not corporate sponsors. If this country cannot function at, as you put it, "the parish pump" then it cannot function at national level.

Whilst I have issues with some of the independents thinking and approach to politics, I find your attitude all the more worrying again. It reeks of what you accussed those attacking the current FF/PD government. Snobbery.

_raptor_

_raptor_ wrote:

Tell me Conor can you tell in all honesty / with hand in heart the FF-PD coalition haven't fucked up one thing after another?

Certainly. But on the other hand I wouldn't attempt to say they haven't ****ed up a few times either.

It's just that for me any alternative carries the possibility of even more problems, and the only way I judge that is from past experience - after all, as anyone who hates FF should gleefully point out because it was one of our **** ups, future promises are so easy to make.

By the way I should point out that I'm from a rural constituency represented by John O'Donoghue, but all I see is youngsters in the building trade driving 4 x 4 jeeps wondering will they buy a second house here or a couple abroad.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

Whilst I have issues with some of the independents thinking and approach to politics, I find your attitude all the more worrying again. It reeks of what you accussed those attacking the current FF/PD government. Snobbery.

Well to quote yourself 'answer my question...answer my question...'.

What have Healy Rae, Fox, McGrath, Higgins etc. got to offer the Peace Process and NI? I don't think it's snobbish to suggest not much, but I will take anything you say in this regard on board. Or do you just want to ignore one of the most fundamental issues that faces this country because to deal with it would be to accept that FF have done more than the rest in one critically important issue. For me, NI is is slightly more important than the euros lost in the e-voting fiasco - it's looking at the bigger picture...

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Certainly. But on the other hand I wouldn't attempt to say they haven't ****ed up a few times either.

Well, to quote yourself, going by past experience .... FF haven't exactly been anything approaching functional (as opposed to dysfunctional) in their governance, with one or two notable exceptions.

as anyone who hates FF should gleefully point out because it was one of our **** ups, future promises are so easy to make.

"our"??? Are you party affiliated in anyway shape or form? I think it's only fair that you state so clearly before this debate continues.

By the way I should point out that I'm from a rural constituency represented by John O'Donoghue, but all I see is youngsters in the building trade driving 4 x 4 jeeps wondering will they buy a second house here or a couple abroad.

Heh. Bad analogy. The building trade is rife iwth corruption and, how shall we say?, "loose" accounting practices? Harney ordered a full investigation into the building trade by revenue about a year ago, so heads are going to start rolling before long. And I dare say you'll be seeing a lot of "4x4 for sale" signs in the local papers.

But to stick with your analogy, all I see is more and more young people (in Dublin) who cannot afford their own homes. This is the first generation who can no longer afford to buy a home in their home city.

Gurgle

Deleted User wrote:

I admire their ability, I admire that whole parish pump mentality and the Independant banging on about a hospital or television masts or Moore Street, but I wouldn't put them in charge of the country tbh...

The independants, as a group have never had any decision making power. Theres never been enough of them.
All they can do is bang on a bit about the issues they got elected on.

If there was enough of them to control the Dail, they could support each others' specific issues and actually get the things done that their constituents elected them in hopes of seeing. Then their agenda is clean, they can approach each debate and vote based on what they think is the right thing to do and why.

A party member is instructed on how to vote based on which campaign contributor is calling in their owed favour. They are not allowed to vote as they feel is best for their electorate

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Well to quote yourself 'answer my question...answer my question...'.

I'll point out you still haven't answered mine. Common courtesy would imagine that you would.

What have Healy Rae, Fox, McGrath, Higgins etc. got to offer the Peace Process and NI? I don't think it's snobbish to suggest not much, but I will take anything you say in this regard on board. Or do you just want to ignore one of the most fundamental issues that faces this country because to deal with it would be to accept that FF have done more than the rest in one critically important issue. For me, NI is is slightly more important than the euros lost in the e-voting fiasco - it's looking at the bigger picture...

The peace process? I think you misjudge the population of this country. Whilst I have no doubt that NI ranks highly on those of a "republican (of the SF/IRA kind)" persuasion, the overwhelming opinion I've encountered from others is that it's nice that the bombing has stopped. Beyond that I think that you'll find people's concerns rate getting taxed left right and centre, insurance, housing, and the rip-off culture that has developed, far far higher than what sit-y-at-e-on Gerry is complaining about now.

To the rest of us, I think'll find that the e-voting fiasco is a microsm of the bigger picture of an inept government that couldn't organise a p*ss-up in a brewery.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

why are you a FF voter? Because mommy and daddy are? :rolleyes:

Lemming wrote:

I'm just anti-bullsh*t. Incidentally, reported for abuse.

Lemming wrote:

you seem to skipping everything I write to get cheap shots in...this sheep-like logic... Any f*cking two-bit f*cktard can point out what's wrong with a given situation. I don't want any two-bit f*cktard. And neither should anyone else.

Lemming wrote:

Stop being facecious. I find your attitude all the more worrying again...Snobbery.

and then...

Lemming wrote:

Common courtesy

I love irony. You don't see half enough of it around the place.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

lemming wrote:

Originally Posted by Lemming
why are you a FF voter? Because mommy and daddy are?

And as I already explained, quite verbosely, that remark was not a swipe at you, but rather the mindset that prevails in this country regarding voting.

Deleted User wrote:

lemming wrote:

I'm just anti-bullsh*t. Incidentally, reported for abuse.

I don't see what my being "anti-bullsh*t" in a political sense of the word has anythign do with anything other than I am affiliated to no party and am a floating voter. You were also reported for name-calling.

Deleted User wrote:

lemming wrote:

you seem to skipping everything I write to get cheap shots in...this sheep-like logic... Any f*cking two-bit f*cktard can point out what's wrong with a given situation. I don't want any two-bit f*cktard. And neither should anyone else.

I see you've mastered the art of "cutting up" sentences. Would you care to post the FULL version of the above quoted text?

As I've said .. another cheap shot. Your entire argument as thus far been bereft of any original thought and has been nothing more than a party-political broadcast.

Deleted User wrote:

lemming wrote:

Stop being facecious. I find your attitude all the more worrying again...Snobbery.

Once again, I'm going to ask for the FULL version of the above quoted text. You are deliberately attempting to goad and are presenting nothing to the thread which you incidentally started.

Deleted User wrote:

and then...

lemming wrote:

Common courtesy

I love irony. You don't see half enough of it around the place.

No irony at all. Since I've been correct in everything I've observed so far. You have failed to answer my questions, and instead choose to try and sling mud and innuendo as if that will somehow make you look intelligent or make your argument for you.

Sleepy

Lemming wrote:

The peace process? I think you misjudge the population of this country. Whilst I have no doubt that NI ranks highly on those of a "republican (of the SF/IRA kind)" persuasion, the overwhelming opinion I've encountered from others is that it's nice that the bombing has stopped. Beyond that I think that you'll find people's concerns rate getting taxed left right and centre, insurance, housing, and the rip-off culture that has developed, far far higher than what sit-y-at-e-on Gerry is complaining about now.

To the rest of us, I think'll find that the e-voting fiasco is a microsm of the bigger picture of an inept government that couldn't organise a p*ss-up in a brewery.

Couldn't agree more. We need to focus on our own country's and that's problems before we even think about taking on the North's as well. I will not be drawn into a facetious argument as to whether the North is part of this country, legally the government are responsible for the Republic of Ireland and this should be the government's first and foremost duty imho.

It worries me that there's no party of significant size to stand a practical chance of ousting Fianna Fail that I would happily vote for. Last time around I voted for the PD's under the auspices of putting someone in place to try and put a reign on the cronyism inherant in FF. They failed me so they won't be getting my vote this time around. I'll probably give first preference to either the Greens or Labour this time. Not because I agree with all of their policies but because I believe them to be honest and to genuinely have the best interests of the electorate in mind when seeking government. I'm a realist, I know they probably won't form part of the next government, but they can at least represent me on those aspects of their manifesto that I do agree with.

I'd possibly agree with more of the Fianna Fail manifesto than many of these parties. The difference is, FF have shown that their manifesto bears little resemblence to their actual policies and practices of governence.

LFCFan

I agree with Lemming. There's a small minority in the South who care enough about the North to make it a big issue when it comes to voting. I for one wish they'd just get on with Governing themselves and be done with it. I am far more concerned with how the government are spending my money. So far they have been nothing short of criminal in their abuse of their power. Michael Martin said it all on the Late Late Show when he had the audacity to say that THEY would take a hit on the e-Voting fiasco. That just about sums up their attitude to OUR money.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

Ah yes, and of course they were still cleaning up after the Fitzgerald/Spring debacle, and they in turn were cleaning up after Lynch, who was cleaning up...in fact we could take that argument right back to the foundation of the State.

It might be worth your while to google the Tallaght strategy ...ah feck it I'll do it for you.

It was not until the late 1980s that the country began to recover. Much of the credit for that recovery should go to Garret FitzGerald, who recognised that the economy was going to get worse if Fine Gael played politics as usual. He announced that if the new Haughey government introduced the necessary unpalatable economic reforms, Fine Gael would support them.

Alan Dukes then implemented what become known as the Tallaght Strategy by backing spending cuts.

In other words the first of the two civil war enemies to actually compromise for the better good was FG.
The fact that they have a leader at the moment who probably means well and does work hard but has a lack of PA abilities and a bungling awkwardness in everything he says thats topped only by George Bush is FG's achille's heel from what I can see.
The thoughts of Kenny as Taoiseach is cringeworthy.

miju

Conor your obviously affiialeted with Fianna Failure or your trolling, either way you should be banned from politics :-0

But in all seriousness before posting anything else and replying to any other post answer theese simple questions:

1: are you a member / affiliated with fianna fail
2: can you give specific examples of what fianna fail can 100% claim credit for that is good for the country (discounting the NI issue)
3: answer most of lemmings questions
4: do you not think that the "Corridors to power" scheme is a flagrant abuse of power by FF and for this alone they shouldn't recieve any votes in the election


Personally I think that if you dont answer these (particularly the first 2) you should be banned for trolling because to me it's either your a troll of you have Fianna Failures ability to talk absolute ****e and not answer any questions directly at all and dole out the usual reply when a **** up happens of WELL THE OTHERS ARE EVEN WORSE THAN S (i guess we'll find out next election cos FF wont be in power much longer)

so in other words put up or shut up

Lemming

As the general consensus seems to be that I'm trolling, I'll stop. It was not my intention to provoke ire and the usual 'I hate Bertie' rhetoric that has been done to death.

A few of you have pointed out that NI is not important, and I accept that is a valid opinion, it's just not one I share. For me it is fundamental, for many the pound in the wallet is a more important issue - although I happen to think that FF have done more to ensure that most of it remains there too.

Lemming wrote:

Since I've been correct in everything I've observed so far

While I admire your confidence, mommy and daddy did tell me one basic thing, which was never to confuse personal opinion with objective fact. It's only 'common courtesy', surely? After all, every argument could be won with the 'I'm always correct' approach...permission to borrow it for future use?

daveirl

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cal29

Earthman wrote:

The thoughts of Kenny as Taoiseach is cringeworthy.

Yes but less cringeworthy than Bruton or indeed Noonan

cal29

daveirl wrote:

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Yes but probably not while Rabbite is leader

Never underestimate the ability of political parties to say one thing and do another. They can wheel out various excuses like that is what the people chose or it is in the national interest etc etc

My honest opinion is that it is time FG and FF put their civil war differences behind them I can see no real policy differences between the for that matter the PDs could join them as well
I think the Labour party have missed an oppurtunity to kill off FG by offering them the prelection pact. They were on their knees after the last general election and a half decent labour party leader should have finished them off

daveirl

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cal29

cal29 wrote:

Yes but less cringeworthy than Bruton or indeed Noonan

I'd have said more cringeworthy.
I reckon Bruton was coached and the coaching worked.
He suddenly started speaking veeeeerrrry sloooooowly and paused a lot to think before it came out.
Kenny just has to perse his lips after every sentence with this false smile that looks like he's saying nah na nah na nah after everything he says and with a touch of "that gotcha didn't it..."

And I can tell you it doesnt work.
At least I cringe every time I see and hear it.

As regards Noonan,he was just plain unlucky,ill advised or just too plain tunnel visioned at times in my view.
He made some serious errors or at least took some bad advice eg the Blood scandals and his approach to the victims of it.
Pity really as he was/is otherwise an excelent debater(unlike Kenny) and very very funny.
Dukes-he was inteligent but boringly so-competent though but not a leader in my opinion.

They were/are all ugly and lacking the charisma(though I'm sure quite nice) to hoover in the voters.

I'll apply this analysis to the other parties too and add scores out of ten if ye want

rsynnott

Deleted User wrote:

A few of you have pointed out that NI is not important, and I accept that is a valid opinion, it's just not one I share. For me it is fundamental, for many the pound in the wallet is a more important issue - although I happen to think that FF have done more to ensure that most of it remains there too.

What about NI, precisely? You realise the majority of people in NI seem to oppose becoming part of the ROI?

Cronus333

Deleted User wrote:

I suspect so many vote FF because they are a heck of a lot better off in real terms than they were in 1987. Let's start with employment rates...

cough
The PDs were in Government by then, so by your logic we should be voting them in rather than Fianna Fail?
Wow. Nothing can possibly go wrong <sarcasm>.

Time Magazine

There's a lot of good stuff in this thread but dear Lord please forgive the tripe. I'm picking on this post.

cal29 wrote:

They can wheel out various excuses like that is what the people chose or it is in the national interest etc etc

Matthew 4:21: "do not do what the people chose or what is in the national interest if it goes against your previous policies" .

My honest opinion is that it is time FG and FF put their civil war differences behind

Never ever ever gonna happen. Ever. Ever. Think Rev. Paisley rapping with the Pope and Gerry Adams while executing Loyalists ever.

no real policy differences between [FF and FG] for that matter

Achieving unification in the North through exclusively peaceful means? Releasing "IRA-martyrs" that shoot Gardái?

the PDs could join them as well

Unlikely. It is Fine Gael's stated aim to annihilate the PD's. I expect FG to take a step right quite soon and FF to edge back to the left; removing any need for the PD's.

I think the Labour party have missed an oppurtunity to kill off FG by offering them the prelection pact.

Fine Gael have 30,000 members. This will grow no matter which way the election goes. If we lose, people will float to us even more as people just really get sick of FF. If FG get elected this time we will grow even further also: a stint in government and a chance to show of some policies (and yes, there are some policies and I'll get to that) will attract the voters that think that we have so few policies we'll no longer bring in laws.

They were on their knees after the last general election

On our knees with 20% of the vote :rolleyes:. And even still we recovered to the mean of their representation within 5 years. Labour's recent pact had feck all difference about this. For the first time ever we matched FF (well, give or take 10 seats) in the local elections and that was way before any real pact.

and a half decent labour party leader should have finished them off

How could a Labour leader, of all leaders, finish us off? Pacts aside, Labour voters are not Fine Gael voters. It's not like they could have stepped up their game. And even had they, it would only have served the PD's as people like myself would have probably tried to centralise the PD's.


Begin moving speech with altruistic music playing in background...

Fine Gael do have policies. In Ireland, nearly every party have a "slogan": FF are "Republican", Labour are "Socialist", the PD's "Liberal" and SF are "scumbags"; but Fine Gael are the only party to not tie their policy to catchphrases like this. FG's policy is not necessarily based on "Liberal" or "Republican" thinking, but on honesty, integrity and justice. I know that sounds like an absolute soundbite but that's the absolute reason we often sway either side of the Left/Right divide and people think we don't have policies.

With regard policies, both Deputy Kenny and Deputy Rabbitte have agreed to not formally publish full election policies yet. To me, there are three reasons for this:

1. What's the point in announcing your manifesto (and there will have to be a massive PR push for the manifestos) mid-term? The election will be in 2 years. The hype will have worn off.
2. It only gives time for FF/PD's to adapt to the policies, nit-pick them for two years and have a stronger chance to criticise (rightly or wrongly) said policies
3. Both FG and Labour have to finalise the policies and it's suicide to announce policies before they've been tried and tested and passed by each other's party members. I know, for example that policies such as a Flat Tax and a State Insurance body are kicking around Young Fine Gael (the senior parties' policies are far more secret)- but they have to go through the machinations first.

There will be policies. And strong ones at that. FG will come down hard on economic and justice issues such as taxes and the IRA, and Labour will kick in with child-care and their stuff. Fingers crossed the Greens will join us in the Dept of the Environment.

With regard Enda Kenny as taoiseach, yeah he's no Bill Clinton. However, Bruton said of Bertie that "they won't accept his style in Europe" and in fairness to the man he stood up to the task. Of course Kenny could do it too.



But in fairness lads, Bertie got it goin' on.....