JJ utg

TacT

This is a hand from yesterday on VC, I'd like to hear what your move is and how you'd have played it yourselves please?

I limp on JJ utg and most of the table folds (9 seater .50/1). I get a $5 raise from the SB and the BB folds. I know the SB has AK so I flat call. Flop comes down Ad Jd 6c giving me what I was looking for. SB bets over the pot on Ace pair looking to put off any flush draw and pick it up there and then.

Your next move is?

careca

If your read is right, then I would flat call. You have absolutely no need to worry (yet). You have the correct position on him. Again though, this is based on your read being absolutely spot on. If he did happen to have diamonds then calling would be the wrong option as you are giving a free card.

Milk it though, is my opinion.

NickyOD

TacT wrote:

This is a hand from yesterday on VC, I'd like to hear what your move is and how you'd have played it yourselves please?

I limp on JJ utg and most of the table folds (9 seater .50/1). I get a $5 raise from the SB and the BB folds. I know the SB has AK so I flat call. Flop comes down Ad Jd 6c giving me what I was looking for. SB bets over the pot on Ace pair looking to put off any flush draw and pick it up there and then.

Your next move is?

How did you know he had AK? Is there no other hand he would play this way preflop?

Anyway, you should make a standard reraise here. You're more likely to get his money early especially with an ace on the board. If a danger card like a diamond lands it will kill your action.

careca

NickyOD wrote:

How did you know he had AK? And if you knew he had AK how could you be afraid of a flush draw?

Anyway, you should make a standard reraise here. You're more likely to get his money early especially with an ace on the board.

I'm not sure Nicky. If you reraise here you are showing some sort of strength. He now knows you're not on a flush draw. If he's any good he has to fear AJ (as you've just called a raise preflop). It might mean you'd get less money off him in the long run. By calling his bet you are letting him think you have a weak A or a flush draw, along with some other hands that bad players could actually be playing with. You actually want no club to come on the turn and you're almost guaranteed of another pot bet. If this card is scary to you (A, K, Q or third club) then reraise on the turn.

I think he meant SB was afraid on flush draw, not himself.

NickyOD

careca wrote:

I think he meant SB was afraid on flush draw, not himself.

Yeah sorry, I edited my post. I'm always doing that.

Hectorjelly

standard play: raise. You dont give stack sizes but assuming you both have full stacks you only have three streets to get the money in, and thats barely enough. AK is unlikely to fold. Dont raise the turn because AK is far more likely to fold then, and dont fourbet the flop unless you are up againts a real idiot. Your line should be: bet raise call, check bet call, check all in call, or bet raise call, bet call, bet raise all in

advanced play for play against good players, flat call flop and turn and then overbet river all in when you miss your flush

Hectorjelly

by the way - what paticular feature of his actions, betting or otherwise, led you to think that he had AK? Other than a general sense of always thinking raisers have AK

Hectorjelly

careca wrote:

I'm not sure Nicky. If you reraise here you are showing some sort of strength. He now knows you're not on a flush draw. If he's any good he has to fear AJ (as you've just called a raise preflop). It might mean you'd get less money off him in the long run. By calling his bet you are letting him think you have a weak A or a flush draw, along with some other hands that bad players could actually be playing with. You actually want no club to come on the turn and you're almost guaranteed of another pot bet. If this card is scary to you (A, K, Q or third club) then reraise on the turn.

I think he meant SB was afraid on flush draw, not himself.

If your playing in a game where AK folds to a single raise on a ace high flop then you are playing in a very bad game and should practice better game selection

TacT

My read was right, he had AK, I knew because it's always $5 for AK and more for rockets. He had AsKd and I moved in on him on the flop with my set of Jacks. He hit a runner runner flush on the river for my $130

Hectorjelly

You played it perfectly then. I hope this wasnt a thinly veiled bad beat post!

TacT

heh, not at all. Was wanting to know what anyone else would have done in the same scenario. Wouldn't have played it any other way but my eyes did pop out of their sockets when a fourth diamond came on the river

It wasn't a bad beat anyway, more of a suckout wouldn't you say?

careca

Hectorjelly wrote:

If your playing in a game where AK folds to a single raise on a ace high flop then you are playing in a very bad game and should practice better game selection

The reason I gave for not reraising was that the other player would then have some clues as to your strength. I never said he would fold AK, what I said was it could mean you earn less money on the hand.

I feel there are lots of ways to play this hand. Tact played it one way and he got all the chips in (ok he was ul) but trapping with position can be just as powerful. What if the player smelled a rat when Tact went all in and decided to lay down his hand (albeit it hard to do). Surely thats a wasted opportunity to earn cash.

TacT

careca wrote:

The reason I gave for not reraising was that the other player would then have some clues as to your strength. I never said he would fold AK, what I said was it could mean you earn less money on the hand.

I feel there are lots of ways to play this hand. Tact played it one way and he got all the chips in (ok he was ul) but trapping with position can be just as powerful. What if the player smelled a rat when Tact went all in and decided to lay down his hand (albeit it hard to do). Surely thats a wasted opportunity to earn cash.

that's exactly what I wanted to do, trap him with position if I hit or get the hell out of there if it missed. I knew he wouldn't be able to lay down top pair if it hit too. The chap just can't, for any amount. He was trying to bully My ace pair with K kicker with AJ just a little earlier.

stack sizes were -- me $150, him $170 btw

NickyOD

careca wrote:

The reason I gave for not reraising was that the other player would then have some clues as to your strength. I never said he would fold AK, what I said was it could mean you earn less money on the hand.

More often than not you will earn less money from slowplaying. The only exception would be against a very aggressive player who has a habit of pot commiting himself.

Slowplaying a set is a very bad play when there's an ace on the board and your oponent is representing it strongly. The reason you raise here is because AQ/AK will not fold and is also likely to call more bets and try to get to a showdown cheaply hoping you have AQ/AT. If he bets the turn and you raise then its a lot more obvious at that point that you have a big hand and you'll kill your action. If he doesn't have a diamond and another one lands then you'll kick yourself for not raising earlier. You are always more likely to get your opoents chips on the earlier streets when he is the one showing strength. If you slowplay he will just slow down.

RoundTower

TacT wrote:

I know the SB has AK

TacT wrote:

I knew he wouldn't be able to lay down top pair if it hit too. The chap just can't, for any amount.

This suggests strongly that you should go all in on the flop, so you played it perfectly. Against a different player, or if you don't have the same insights not only into his hole cards but also into his soul, you would play it differently.

However, there is an even better line than this. Since you always know what he has and that he will not be folding it, just wait until the river and move all in unless he hit runner-runner full house or a fourth diamond.

Lafortezza

On the flop the SB bet the pot which would be about $11, there's still plenty of money left (>$100 each), so I think you have to raise the flop to have the highest chance of getting all in (seeing as you're convinced he's got AK).

If you just call the flop then there's about $30 in the pot on the turn, if SB checks or bets small and TacT bets/raises to get half his stack in the middle then the SB may well fold thinking TacT has a set or has and A and has also hit his kicker (AJo or something).

Raise the SB's $10 flop bet to $25 total and then see what happens on the turn assuming SB calls.

Hectorjelly

careca wrote:

The reason I gave for not reraising was that the other player would then have some clues as to your strength. I never said he would fold AK, what I said was it could mean you earn less money on the hand.

I feel there are lots of ways to play this hand. Tact played it one way and he got all the chips in (ok he was ul) but trapping with position can be just as powerful. What if the player smelled a rat when Tact went all in and decided to lay down his hand (albeit it hard to do). Surely thats a wasted opportunity to earn cash.

The biggest mistake that most players make is that they play too loose. The second biggest mistake is that they slowplay their big hands and dont win as much as they can. There are times to slowplay, but they are so far and few between that you would only be making a small mistake by never doing it.

In this hand any diamond is going to kill tacts action as his opponent will put him on a flush draw if he raises after the flop. Its also a lot easier for AK to fold later streets because he could put tact on 2 pair, or a slowplayed set. 90% of players slowplay sets which in itself is a good reason not to do it.

Whenever you flop a strong hand you should look at the stack sizes and come up with a plan to get him all in by the river. If its a tournament and a pot bet on the turn is going to commit him then flat calling might be ok, but in a cash game flat calling is leaving money on the table.