Flush over flush (not a bad beat)

biteme

Ok this isn't intended to be a bad beat post at all. But I played a hand last night in PLH game in fitz last night and just got me thinking how you should go about playing lower flushes so you minimise losses and maximise wins.

Here's how I played the hand last night. I don't think I played it right but I'll try to explain what I was thinking.

Blinds are 1/2 and I'm dealt 9Tc in the SB.

I complete after about half the table limps.

Flop comes kh jc 6c.

I check. Considered betting the flush draw and middler but didn't think it was strong enough to stand a raise.
Everyone now checks behind me.

Turn is 7c.
So now I have a t high flush with one out to improve for straight flush.
I bet the pot (15) to find out where I am. I wasn't sure what was out there. I was suprised that no one had bet the flop. I get called in two places anyway.

River is an Ah and I bet out 50. And get called in one place. He has q8c.
Now the thing that made me think about the hand was nothing to do with being beaten. I was trying to think how I get away from the hand cheaper or how I could possibly win the hand.

See I think that if I bet out my draw on the flop I'm still getting called by q8c. I don't think it's realistic to raise preflop to drive out hands like q8c from the SB. So how do I get away from this hand cheaper. Or how do you play lower flushes in tourny's or cash games. I do think that you need to play them differently.

NickyOD

I would have bet a little less on the river. probably 25/30. You have an obvious made flush by betting both turn and river so if you get called/raised after you bet 50 you're more likely to be behind. I'm surprised the player with the Queen flush didn't raise the turn.

biteme

Ya I bet out on the turn thinking that if I don't get raised I probably have the strongest hand.

careca

its a tricky one to get away from alright. I agree with Nicky that you got out cheap enough, as I would have expected a reraise on the river. Would you have received more info by betting the flop and then checking the turn (easy to say after the event) ?

NickyOD

careca wrote:

its a tricky one to get away from alright. I agree with Nicky that you got out cheap enough, as I would have expected a reraise on the river. Would you have received more info by betting the flop and then checking the turn (easy to say after the event) ?

reraising the river would be very bad for the Queen flush there. Dave obviously had a made hand and would only call a river raise with K or Ace high flush.

biteme

careca wrote:

Would you have received more info by betting the flop and then checking the turn (easy to say after the event) ?

I don't think I gain much info from doing this. All I really achieve is building the pot up if I hit. I can't call a re-raise on the flop either. Also if I hit the flush on the turn and check I think I have to call a bet on the turn. Or I have to at least bet out.. I lose more money here if I do this I think. Betting the flop from such an early position I don't think has many advantages.

NickyOD

biteme wrote:

I don't think I gain much info from doing this. All I really achieve is building the pot up if I hit. I can't call a re-raise on the flop either. Also if I hit the flush on the turn and check I think I have to call a bet on the turn. Or I have to at least bet out.. I lose more money here if I do this I think. Betting the flop from such an early position I don't think has many advantages.

If you had overcards I would mind a lead on the flop here to disguise your big draw.

careca

Thats probably where the gambler in me comes out. I think I would bet the flop here. The fact that there were lots of limpers would rule out any big hands. There could be a set of 6s or KJ. If you bet the flop and get reraised, then you check your odds and decide accordingly. You can be sure that your flush is good if you make it. If you had done this and the other player just calls you would probably have deduced that you were up against a draw of some sort and would have saved your 50 on the river.

As for raise on river by other player, ya dead right Nicky, meant turn.

biteme

NickyOD wrote:

If you had overcards I would mind a lead on the flop here to disguise your big draw.

I agree, I think it's profitable to bet here if I had over cards. But with under cards I really don't think I should be betting out from my position on that flop.

Careca wrote:

Thats probably where the gambler in me comes out. I think I would bet the flop here. The fact that there were lots of limpers would rule out any big hands. There could be a set of 6s or KJ. If you bet the flop and get reraised, then you check your odds and decide accordingly. You can be sure that your flush is good if you make it. If you had done this and the other player just calls you would probably have deduced that you were up against a draw of some sort and would have saved your 50 on the river.

I don't think I save money betting out on the flop, because I still think I have to bet out on the turn when I hit my hand. I can't check and wait for someone else to bet. That way I have no idea where I am. Should probably call and then will probably have to call a bet on the river.

The only way I can think of getting away cheaper is betting a little less on the river. Maybe 40/35, I don't think I can bet much less. The pot is 60. If I bet half the pot or less it comes across as a very weak bet.

Jaden

Here's how I would have played.

Pre-Flop.
With 9/10s in the SB, with several limpers, I might raise 1 or 2 x blinds. There is already about €12 in the pot, €3 more (min raise) gets the pot pot to a nice size, with a minimal investment. Min raises scare the bejasus out of some players, so the A,x players, low suited connectors, or K,x, Q,x players might just fold, thinking that they won't get cheap cards post flop.

Post-Flop.
You have a flush draw, and a straight draw. Making 13 outs from two more cards. This is worth a half-pot bet for semi-bluff value. At worst you are representing a K, which should have made a reasonable Q/8 holder drop his hand.

Any call of this bet is a fair indicator of where you stand.

The club on the turn is a real warning bell.

biteme

Jaden wrote:

Pre-Flop.
With 9/10s in the SB, with several limpers, I might raise 1 or 2 x blinds. There is already about €12 in the pot, €3 more (min raise) gets the pot pot to a nice size, with a minimal investment. Min raises scare the bejasus out of some players, so the A,x players, low suited connectors, or K,x, Q,x players might just fold, thinking that they won't get cheap cards post flop.

You've never played in a cash game in the fitz then.

RoundTower

I think you played the hand perfectly. Against most opponents, the times you get called by one pair and two pair hands make up for the times you run into a bigger flush. The A on the end may be the best card you can catch in this respect, because the hand you are most likely to be called by on 4th street is a hand that includes the Ac.

Raising to €4 or €5 from the SB, whatever hand you have, is just taking the piss.

As for playing low flushes in a tourney, I think I'm going broke here. Many opponents are more likely to bluff on the river, though, so against some players you can check and call.