40% of Irish medicine places going to this year's students

AndyWarhol

I've codified what I read in today's Irish Indepentent below, some interesting statistics were presented all the same.

Of all the students who got in to med this year, just 40% sat the Leaving in 2005, the remainig 60% of places being filled by A-levels applicants (majority of that 60%), non-EU nationals, mature students, repeat leaving certs and defferals.

I think it's a terrible state of affairs that young students are forced to compete even harder with each other because of non-EU students (who'll probably up and leave Ireland as soon as their qualified), repeat Leaving Cert students (often well-off, second and third time merri-go-rounders) and students from A-level backgrounds (it's definitely easier to score higher points with A-levels especially with recent grade inflation).

Irish medical courses need drastic reform to allow intelligent, eager and enthusiastic students progress in their chosen career paths. While I accept there must be entry requirements to the medical profession, one must accept that the enty system as it stands is out of control?

Incidently, I'm not bitter that I didn't get in to med. I'm an engineer and although I could have studied med and chose not to.

d4gurl

Sadly life just is not fair!

RacoonQueen

Ridiculous :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Our system annoys the hell out of me :mad: :mad: :mad:

Richard_Fonzie

"Of all the students who got in to med this year, just 40% sat the Leaving in 2005, the remainig 60% of places being filled by A-levels applicants (majority of that 60%), non-EU nationals, mature students, repeat leaving certs and defferals."

I thought that it implied that the majority of that 60% were repeat leaving cert students, and that the next big share was of A-Levels applicants from Northern Ireland. Ireland isn't facing any problems (moreso than other developed countries) in regards to a shortage of trained workers in the health sector, so I don't think it's time to go blaming "the foreigners".

sock.rocker*

it is facing a problem with a lack of trained workers..

it said on the radio that one of those advisory boards is advising ireland to double its med places cause of shortages

newgrange

Non-EU nationals also pay way over the odds fees-wise, which makes them very attractive to the colleges, whether they choose to leave or not.

lomb

ive come to the conclusion doing the leaving is a waste of time if u want to get into a high point course. there are colleges in the city center where they do A levels, id recommend that anyday and sitting the exams in the north.

people i have known who have got into courses from the north wouldnt have had a prayer doing the leaving.

i have even known an irish person to go to boarding school in the north because they knew they hadnt got much of a chance doing the leaving.

personally i got 560 points and did what i wanted, on the 2nd attempt but to b honest if i had done the A levels i would have got 600 no problem, trinity gives 150 points for an A, so u need to do 4 of them, and As are easily gotten, as they arent broken down by A1,A2, etc and afaik its 80%+ as opposed to 85% here for an A2.

moral of the story, the system here is totally unfair, and people sending their children to fine schools like like de la salle etc are wasting their time, the funny thing is sending them to the crappest school in newry gives them a better chance

Macka

I heard that there are more places in medicine in the colleges in the north of Ireland than there is in the entire south, I don't know if that's true but if it is that needs to be rectified and just highlights the lack of places in medicine in our country

Attol

I disagree with you completely. It's not all that simple in A Levels. To get good grades you need to complete coursework. If you complete coursework well then you have a chance of getting a decent enugh grades. The exams are all essays. The content of your essay isn't as important as the layout as I found out in psychology which can make it very difficult for someone from the Republic who is used to approaching exams in a different way. Well not all layout. It's complete luck on how it gets marked. I've used memorised essays in exams when I've been lucky enough to get questions practiced in class and received a C when the speicification and my teachers had graded it with an A.

In the 6th form college I go to in England it is compulsory to do General Studies, a kind of CSPE type class. I have explained time and time again to my tutor that it is of no use to me as the Irish colleges do not accept it as a proper subject. On top of that Irish colleges require 6 subjects. The normal amount is 3 in English universities. 2 GCSEs can be used to make up the numbers in Irish colleges but if you're from the Republic you won't have these. So this year I'm doing a subject that won't count towards anything meaning I have to do another 5 subjects on top of this(I dropped an AS(first year) subject last year so this year I'm doing 4 A levels into their second year and 2 GCSEs). It may not sound like much but the subjects are very in depth. We have 3 exams per subject so studying for an extra 6 exams(the GCSE exams that would have been unnecessary had my frikn Junior Cert counted for ANYTHING) on top of my 12 others is a bit of a b!tch. And doing GCSEs isn't the same as the Junior Cert. The course contains a lot of things not contained in the Irish one so I get to learn what English people did in 3 years in 1 year.

In my opinion it is easier to get higher grades as it is easier to repeat. We don't have to wait a year and do all our exams again. We do one batch of exams the first year for our AS Levels(half the full A Level which is 3 papers) and another for A2(full A Level, another 3 papers, one of which is usually coursework). We can repeat as many of the 3 papers for each subject each year as we wish to improve grades. For example I got a D in one of my subjects. I got the grades C E C. If i resit the paper I got the E in I can hopefully bring my grade up. We can resit in January of the next school year.

And blaming foreigners is ridiculous. Loads of people these days travel for university. You can't say they shouldn't be allowed to Irish universities when no doubt they have people from Ireland in theirs. And it's good that there is competition for studying medicine. Wouldn't you want the best people available to be taking care of you?

defiantshrimp

AndyWarhol wrote:

I've codified what I read in today's Irish Indepentent below, some interesting statistics were presented all the same.

Of all the students who got in to med this year, just 40% sat the Leaving in 2005, the remainig 60% of places being filled by A-levels applicants (majority of that 60%), non-EU nationals, mature students, repeat leaving certs and defferals.

The sad fact is it has to be this way. We don't give medical schools enough money to cover the expenses of training an Irish student so they are forced to rely on non-EU students to fund the shortfall. The only solution is to introduce fees but that is not going to happen since we seem to be allergic to the idea.

lomb

LadyLotts wrote:

I disagree with you completely. It's not all that simple in A Levels. To get good grades you need to complete coursework. If you complete coursework well then you have a chance of getting a decent enugh grades. The exams are all essays. The content of your essay isn't as important as the layout as I found out in psychology which can make it very difficult for someone from the Republic who is used to approaching exams in a different way. Well not all layout. It's complete luck on how it gets marked. I've used memorised essays in exams when I've been lucky enough to get questions practiced in class and received a C when the speicification and my teachers had graded it with an A.

In the 6th form college I go to in England it is compulsory to do General Studies, a kind of CSPE type class. I have explained time and time again to my tutor that it is of no use to me as the Irish colleges do not accept it as a proper subject. On top of that Irish colleges require 6 subjects. The normal amount is 3 in English universities. 2 GCSEs can be used to make up the numbers in Irish colleges but if you're from the Republic you won't have these. So this year I'm doing a subject that won't count towards anything meaning I have to do another 5 subjects on top of this(I dropped an AS(first year) subject last year so this year I'm doing 4 A levels into their second year and 2 GCSEs). It may not sound like much but the subjects are very in depth. We have 3 exams per subject so studying for an extra 6 exams(the GCSE exams that would have been unnecessary had my frikn Junior Cert counted for ANYTHING) on top of my 12 others is a bit of a b!tch. And doing GCSEs isn't the same as the Junior Cert. The course contains a lot of things not contained in the Irish one so I get to learn what English people did in 3 years in 1 year.

In my opinion it is easier to get higher grades as it is easier to repeat. We don't have to wait a year and do all our exams again. We do one batch of exams the first year for our AS Levels(half the full A Level which is 3 papers) and another for A2(full A Level, another 3 papers, one of which is usually coursework). We can repeat as many of the 3 papers for each subject each year as we wish to improve grades. For example I got a D in one of my subjects. I got the grades C E C. If i resit the paper I got the E in I can hopefully bring my grade up. We can resit in January of the next school year.

And blaming foreigners is ridiculous. Loads of people these days travel for university. You can't say they shouldn't be allowed to Irish universities when no doubt they have people from Ireland in theirs. And it's good that there is competition for studying medicine. Wouldn't you want the best people available to be taking care of you?

well statistics prove u are wrong, more people from northern ireland got 600 points than southern irish (175 vs 145 i think) and the norths population is a fraction of the souths. so that disproves ur theory totally.
it is relatively very very easy to get 600 points in the A levels compared to 600 in the leaving which is nearly impossible.

lomb

Macka wrote:

I heard that there are more places in medicine in the colleges in the north of Ireland than there is in the entire south, I don't know if that's true but if it is that needs to be rectified and just highlights the lack of places in medicine in our country

nope, too many places, many people after they qualify from medicine emigrate. same with dentistry. there just are no well paying jobs here or they are nearly impossible to get into.
it is very hard to get any job here in ireland thats permanent as a doctor. they give sh!tty 6 month contracts to doctors here and move u around the country. becoming a consultant is next to impossible.

people who do medicine have no idea what they are letting themselves into...
and before anyone says i dont know what i am talking about i know 10 doctors, both young and old and i have been a dentist for 5 years. and comparing myself to them i am very very fortunate to say the least.

Scarinae

lomb wrote:

well statistics prove u are wrong, more people from northern ireland got 600 points than southern irish (175 vs 145 i think) and the norths population is a fraction of the souths. so that disproves ur theory totally.
it is relatively very very easy to get 600 points in the A levels compared to 600 in the leaving which is nearly impossible.

You missed her point completely. She's saying that doing A levels after sitting the junior cert in Ireland puts you at a complete disadvantage, and you end up having to do make up work. You are saying that more people in Northern Ireland get 600 points - but they are people who have been in the British system all along. So saying that it is advantageous to switch to A levels instead of doing the Leaving is possibly wrong

lomb

Fishie wrote:

So saying that it is advantageous to switch to A levels instead of doing the Leaving is possibly wrong

True of course, but i know person who did it, (the daughter of a doctor no less..)
a wise man..., the leaving cert has gone mad and it isnt a level playing field any more, so if u cant beat them join them, but u are right, it needs looking into more b4 a switch is made.

i have to laugh at all these people sending their kids to 'top' schools in dublin like rather high school, waste of time in my opinion the worst school in newry is likely to yield a higher point score for someone who is determined.
also u only need 4 subjects, so i would do the science subjects where u know ul get an A or whatever not the debatable subjects like english where u could get an A or a C :rolleyes:

Attol

lomb wrote:

i have to laugh at all these people sending their kids to 'top' schools in dublin like rather high school, waste of time in my opinion the worst school in newry is likely to yield a higher point score for someone who is determined.
also u only need 4 subjects, so i would do the science subjects where u know ul get an A or whatever not the debatable subjects like english where u could get an A or a C :rolleyes:

Universities in Ireland require English, maths and another language. 6 subjects in all are required. You need three subjects at A2 level and 3 subjects that can be A2, AS or GCSE(min. grades A,B or C for GCSE). I don't know where you got your information on only needing 4 subjects. Very few universities actually turn UK grades into CAO points. EDIT: The extract below doesn't show that to get into a course you need 3 A2 grades CCC(or equivalent) and above.


UCD matriculation requirements for A Level applicants:
"To matriculate on the basis of the GCE/GCSE examinations, an applicant must obtain passes at GCSE (Grade A, B, or C) or A-level in six recognised subjects according to Faculty requirements with Grade C or better in two subjects at A-level (AE or BD is regarded as equivalent to two Grade Cs for this purpose). This assumes eligibility for exemption from Irish which may be claimed from: The Registrar, National University of Ireland, 49 Merrion Square, Dublin 2."

http://www.ucd.ie/horizons/ni.htm

Sisu

From the universities' point of view, comparing grades from different exam systems fairly can be very difficult. Because of the widespread view that it was too easy for people who did A-levels to get top points, and taking into account a new report that said a Leaving Cert subject was worth 2/3, not 1/2, an A-level, Trinity changed its conversion of A-Level results this year.

Trinity used to count three A-levels and say that an A at A-level was the equivalent of an A1 and an A2, ie 190. While this was generous in many ways (lots of people got 3 A's), it gave a maximum of 570, which could leave students aiming for the highest points courses disappointed - even if they got 4 A's at A-level, they could never get more than 570.

This year, they decided to change the points allocation as follows:
A = 150(A2) 60(AS)
B = 130(A2) 50(AS)
C = 105(A2) 40(AS)
D = 80(A2) 30(AS)
So now, a student who gets four A's at A-level, which is probably closer to the achievement of 6 A1's than the old system was, can get 600.

However, whatever about the merits of the change, it was unfair to introduce it in the middle of a year, when the vast majority of students were only doing three subjects for A-level, not four, and therefore could not aspire to more than 510 (three A's at A-level and an A in another subject at AS-level).

Because of this, Trinity wrote to Northern schools and assured them that it would be possible for this year's students to get in to courses like Medicine and Law - a certain, unspecified number of places would be allocated to them.

It strikes me as ironic that every time this is reported in papers, such as the Irish Times, it is saying: look how unfair it in on Leaving Cert students; Trinity has a quota of places for people from Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In fact, this is just a transitional measure to mitigate the unfairness of switching to the new system too late for students to meet the new requirements.

This relates to points conversions, which are relevant for competition for places, rather than the minimum requirements, which seem to be making LadyLotts' life difficult.

On a lighter note, if you really want to work for the system and find an easier exam to get in with, why not check out...
International Baccalaureate
European Baccalaureate
Abitur (Germany)
Avgansbetyg/Slutbetyg (Sweden)
Diploma consequito con l'Esame di Stato (Italy)
Diploma Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs (VWO) (Netherlands)
French Baccelaureate (France)
Higher/Advanced Higher Examination (Scotland)
Lukion Päästötodistus/Gymnasiets Avgånsbetyg and Ylioppilastutkinto/Studentexamen (Finland)
Studentereksamen (Denmark)
Swiadectwo Dojrzalosci / Matura (Poland)
Brandos Atestats (Maturity Certificate) (Lithuania)

My last point is that, while the universities should have enough places to cater for suitably qualified local applicants, and it looks like the numbers in Medicine should be drastically increased, people should not say the solution is to keep out foreigners. Universities should aim to be international, not parochial. Certainly, finances play a role in the number of non-EU students taken in, but having people from different cultures, with different ways of thinking and doing things, can only enrich a university's life.

the_syco

AndyWarhol wrote:

repeat Leaving Cert students (often well-off, second and third time merri-go-rounders)

So, they don't get it the first time, so they must be rich to try again?

lomb

Sisu wrote:

My last point is that, while the universities should have enough places to cater for suitably qualified local applicants, and it looks like the numbers in Medicine should be drastically increased,

even if there are no jobs after?

killermonkey

lomb wrote:

it is relatively very very easy to get 600 points in the A levels compared to 600 in the leaving which is nearly impossible.

sorry i had to laugh at that! u seem to have some kind of grudge against both education systems, saying the A-levels are comparatively too easy (which i very much doubt to be true) and that its impossible to get 600 points in the leaving cert? there is no fair system - the A levels are extremely challenging i have no doubt, as is the leaving cert. (145 ppl got 600 this year) should A-level applicants be allowed entry into medicine over here with four grade A's? of course they should. but so too should any irish applicant who shows himself/herself academically capable for that kind of career. not merely those with 570+ and is lucky in the random selection process. the whole thing is a shambles, and unfortunately the irish students are probably suffering that bit more.

lomb

killermonkey wrote:

sorry i had to laugh at that! u seem to have some kind of grudge against both education systems, saying the A-levels are comparatively too easy

Theres nothing to laugh at getting 80 % is far easier than getting an A1 at 90% thats the point.
i never said the a levels are easy and remember in the uk they go on interviews which are less percise than doing well in exams.

Sisu

lomb wrote:

even if there are no jobs after?

I'm not an expert, but my impression was that we need more doctors, not that there is an unemployment problem:

"The manpower crisis was not because medical schools placed a cap on the number of students; it was Government policy, said Prof Fitzgerald."

Apparently, a recent report, the Fottrell report, recommends an increase in medical training places from 305 to 725. I presume that report took the issue of employment and the health service's needs into account.

It may well be, as you suggest earlier, that employment terms in the health sector are not sufficiently attractive to retain people, but if that is the problem, then it would be better to address that than to limit the number trained.

Even if there wasn't a need for more doctors, to what extent is it the government's job to prevent people training? Shouldn't people be informed about the job market and have the choice themselves, even if, for example, they knew there was a high chance they'd have to emigrate? The government's interest is presumably related to subsidising the cost of medical education. However, if the medical schools were to decide that they could afford to increase the numbers of both EU and non-EU students, why should they be prohibited from doing so?

Young Siward

There is no exact way of comparing A levels to the LC however....

One study last year compared LC English to A level English and found them to be fairly equal in difficulty, yet some universities were offering 'double points' for the A level students. Yet others would say the marking scheme was pretty lenient.... the saga continues.

BTW They also said that LC Maths is 2/3 the difficulty of A level Maths.

Sisu

By the way, I see Trinity's new system for allocating points for A-level grades didn't have the desired effect - in fact it may have backfired by moving a cohort of A-level students from 570 to 600, and consequently moving them ahead of Leaving Cert students with 580 and 590 points in the queue for courses such as Medicine. Apparently there were far more people who took 4 A-levels and got straight A's (170 applicants to Trinity) than anyone expected.

lomb

Sisu wrote:

It may well be, as you suggest earlier, that employment terms in the health sector are not sufficiently attractive to retain people, but if that is the problem, then it would be better to address that than to limit the number trained.

True!, caveat emptor, but most young people wouldnt have a clue (or care ) about their prospects after (or lack thereof)

i know one young doctor who left to own/run restaurants, and another who joined his father building and subcontracting.

lomb

Sisu wrote:

By the way, I see Trinity's new system for allocating points for A-level grades didn't have the desired effect - in fact it may have backfired by moving a cohort of A-level students from 570 to 600, and consequently moving them ahead of Leaving Cert students with 580 and 590 points in the queue for courses such as Medicine. Apparently there were far more people who took 4 A-levels and got straight A's (170 applicants to Trinity) than anyone expected.

more northerns got 600 than irish got 600 points, even though the north is much less populated than the south , can u explain that?
obviously its easier to get 600 doing the A levels than doing the leaving, regardless of what any (politically motivated) study suggests. anyone who cant see that is blind.

Sisu

lomb wrote:

more northerns got 600 than irish got 600 points, even though the north is much less populated than the south , can u explain that?

I don't dispute that a much greater proportion of A-level candidates get three, or even, it turns out, four A's at A-level than Leaving Cert students get six A1's.

The problem is to come up with a system of equivalencies that is fair to every applicant and there isn't an easy answer.

As between the two systems in question, the Leaving Cert makes much finer distinctions between people, and those fine distinctions make a big difference when it comes to high points courses like Medicine. You could get "straight A's" in the Leaving Cert, but if they're all A2's, then sorry, you won't get to do Medicine.

I was reading an article that says a third of Northern Ireland students get A's - I'm not sure what it means by that - is it that a third of students get an A in something, or that a third of the grades awarded are A? Whatever it means, it's a much higher proportion than get honours A1's in the Leaving Cert.

The article says,

"The exam system is under scrutiny because of claims that awarding a high proportion of A grades has made it harder to differentiate between pupils."

You might get one student who's pretty good, and the other who's exceptionally brilliant, but since the system doesn't distinguish between them, are you going to give them both a university place, or neither?