Hate Laws?

superconor

Will the new Hate Laws coming in regarding Incitement Of Religious hatred mean anything for metal? I mean think of how many bands with Anti-Christian / Jewish / etc themes? Can i be arrested for wearing my Morbid Angel God Is Dead tshirt? What about Deicide and **** Your God? Or Burzum? What about CD's with upside down crosses on them etc?

Any ideas? Anyone a lawyer?

sterculelum

I hope it stops all the hate ****e that a lot of those metallers seem to condone, but I'm all for upside down crosses and the like (although I'm far from a satanist). I think **** your God is a bit offensive and ppl shouldn't be wearing t-shirts saying that walking down the street.

That said, if you're into satanism, go ahead and do whatever you have to do.

hawkmoon269

I'm not particularly a metal fan but the opening post raises some thought provoking questions. This legislation is totally misguided in my view. I am assuming the legislation just applies to the UK and not to ROI.

In relation to the second post, with respect, who decides what people should and shouldn't do?

sterculelum

Well people can't be allowed to do whatever they want. There needs to be rules regarding racism. People can't be allowed to walk around with a t-shirt saying "I Hate Black People" or swastikas all over themselves, it would start crimes. There needs to be control. I'm not saying that satanism should be illegal, just that people should be aware that they can't go around bashing christianity.

Equally, christians shouldn't be allowed to wear anti-Satanism stuff around the streets.

ANarcho-Munk

ahh jaysus I wonder what'll happen my Crossbuster t-shirt

Ancient1

There needs to be control. I'm not saying that satanism should be illegal, just that people should be aware that they can't go around bashing christianity.

Oh grow up. You know nothing about "control" and hate laws have nothing to do with art and freedom of speech.

FFS.

Doctor J

People are entitled to bash any ideology IMO. If it can't stand up to investigation then it isn't valid. Incitement of hatred, on the other hand, is a different matter IMO and definitely something I don't like at all.

Pet

Doctor J wrote:

People are entitled to bash any ideology IMO. If it can't stand up to investigation then it isn't valid. Incitement of hatred, on the other hand, is a different matter IMO and definitely something I don't like at all.

Yeah but where do you draw the line? If you criticise a religion offensively ("Jesus was a ****" or "Mohammed was a paedophile") then someone could easily say that you were "inciting hatred". That's why I don't like this law, it's stupid, and taking political correctness too far.

John

I'd like to see how far the law is pushed. If people are stopped from wearing metal t-shirts or whatever then it's going too far. Let's face it, the majority of metal fans are not bigots, yes we all can think of one or two metal fans from our own lives who are ***** but that's their problem, not the fact they listen to metal. I have a funny feeling it's a law to prevent extreme religious nuts from encouraging their followers to blow the **** out of some other people as opposed to an anti-music law.

superconor

By equal measures a Non-Christian could take offense to a t-shirt saying Jesus Saves or Got Jesus?

What about the people that stand in town centers preaching the Bible? I consider that to be offensive, is he in trouble as well?

Deadwing

Doctor J wrote:

If it can't stand up to investigation then it isn't valid.

Standing up to investigation is one thing, and everyone has a right to think about chritianity/buddhism/paganism whatever, and ask 'is this for real? is it all a sham? etc etc'. But to just say 'f*ck your god' 'jesus was a ****' (saw that on some t-shirt a while ago) really is being offensive just for the sake of being offensive. Seriously, you dont see people walking down the road with 'f*ck buddha', 'paganists worship trees, the stupid f*ckers', or 'bollocks to jews' so why should christianity be singled out over any other religion?
Im not a bible basher, ive got slayer cd's, burzum cd's, but i do find the anti-christian bashing that comes with some metal to get a bit tiresome, and can see how some people might consider it to 'induce hate'. These people are idiots however, but i do find it a bit hypocritical that if a band say 'f*ck god' its acceptable, but if they said 'f*ck moses/mohammed/buddha' theyd be racist.

sterculelum

Ancient1 wrote:

Oh grow up. You know nothing about "control" and hate laws have nothing to do with art and freedom of speech.

FFS.

Whoa chill it there, man.

Sarky

Deadwing wrote:

why should christianity be singled out over any other religion

Because it's popular.

I have no trouble with anti-religious material at all, as long as there's some reason behind it besides just offense. There are more than a few anti-religious songs out there that give good reasons why religion, or an aspect of it, is a bad thing.

Tar.Aldarion

'god hates us all?'


no my precious tshirt that will cause sooo much crime
people can wear whatever they want,it's peoples lame reactions to it that would be a problem.

Doctor J

Deadwing wrote:

Standing up to investigation is one thing, and everyone has a right to think about chritianity/buddhism/paganism whatever, and ask 'is this for real? is it all a sham? etc etc'. But to just say 'f*ck your god' 'jesus was a ****' (saw that on some t-shirt a while ago) really is being offensive just for the sake of being offensive. Seriously, you dont see people walking down the road with 'f*ck buddha', 'paganists worship trees, the stupid f*ckers', or 'bollocks to jews' so why should christianity be singled out over any other religion?
Im not a bible basher, ive got slayer cd's, burzum cd's, but i do find the anti-christian bashing that comes with some metal to get a bit tiresome, and can see how some people might consider it to 'induce hate'. These people are idiots however, but i do find it a bit hypocritical that if a band say 'f*ck god' its acceptable, but if they said 'f*ck moses/mohammed/buddha' theyd be racist.

Indeed, you'll find my point and your are pretty much the same. I find it the anti-chrisitan stuff just as annoying as the overly pro-chrisitan stuff. Everybody is entitled to their own way of life, though they should show respect for others, it's that simple. Saying 'Jesus is a ****' on a t-shirt isn't making any valid point, it's merely there so teenagers can get at their parents and a band can shift a few more units on the back of teen angst, it's a display of disrespect to Christians who, whether you agree with Christianity or not (or any form of religion where theire is a deity figure involved), have a right to go through their day without this kind of immature nonsense. How many of these muppets would get irked by someone on a Glasgow Rangers jersey or someone wearing a "Hitler was right' t-shirt?

Ancient1

sterculelum wrote:

Whoa chill it there, man.

Yeah, that was a bit harsh perhaps....i was drunk and annoyed last night.
Baseless scaremongering just annoys me. Strict hate laws are already in place in Germany, for example, and it doesnt influence "metal" in any way. The censorship of album covers like Cannibal Corpse, for example, is covered under other "decency" laws.

sterculelum

Ancient1 wrote:

Yeah, that was a bit harsh perhaps....i was drunk and annoyed last night.
Baseless scaremongering just annoys me. Strict hate laws are already in place in Germany, for example, and it doesnt influence "metal" in any way. The censorship of album covers like Cannibal Corpse, for example, is covered under other "decency" laws.

Fair enough.

Mist

Most of the lame little metal kids that wear t-shirts saying anything offensive usually don't have a ****ing clue what their t-shirt says.

Those who claim they do probably don't believe in the ideology or have any knowledge about what they are insulting but still where the t-shirt becuase it makes them feel hard.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but if they don't know anything about the opinion voiced by their t-shirt then they sholdn't wear it.

sterculelum

Mist wrote:

Most of the lame little metal kids that wear t-shirts saying anything offensive usually don't have a ****ing clue what their t-shirt says.

Those who claim they do probably don't believe in the ideology or have any knowledge about what they are insulting but still where the t-shirt becuase it makes them feel hard.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but if they don't know anything about the opinion voiced by their t-shirt then they sholdn't wear it.

Agreed. These new age "goths" piss me off too.

Mist

Yeah and emo kids. They all dress the way they do because they WANT people to say something to them.

To be honest I think that wearing offensive band t-shirts is lame. Nobody really gives a **** if you like some random death metal act. The only band t-shirts i wear are ones that i think look cool, that do not contain any offensive content. Also, they're not black.

sterculelum

Mist wrote:

Yeah and emo kids. They all dress the way they do because they WANT people to say something to them.

To be honest I think that wearing offensive band t-shirts is lame. Nobody really gives a **** if you like some random death metal act. The only band t-shirts i wear are ones that i think look cool, that do not contain any offensive content. Also, they're not black.

Damn right. Bring back Cureheads, etc. These emo kiddies don't stand a chance against 70's punks, 80's goths, mods.

Sacrificing goats. Ffs!

Ruaidhri

Who cares tbh? this seems to me to be an anti-muslim law. which is racism.
it's my view that religion causes too many blinkered bigoted views, and as such should be outlawed. no one person or book can tell you how to lead your life.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Actually, one person; goes by the name of Jesus, can tell you how to live your life.
BTW if something is "anti-muslim", that has sweet F all to do with "racism", it's called secterianism, you clueless jerk.
"Religion should be outlawed" ? Words can't express how much I despise people like you, Ruaidhri. Grow up.

Doctor J

Insulting people and despising people isn't very Christian, now is it Tommy? To much "do as I say" and not enough "Do as I do" going on. Again, you've resorted to personal abuse when you don't like what people are saying. Bad form. Grow up.

It's ok to disagree with people. If you can't retort in a civil manner then don't.

Karl Hungus

scouser.tommy wrote:

Actually, one person; goes by the name of Jesus, can tell you how to live your life.

WRONG! It's not Jesus, it's Buddha that is the only one person who can tell you how to live your life.

pbsuxok1znja4r

I'm allowed to tell people I despise them. I wouldn't have called him clueless if he wasn't so obviously ignorant as to what he's talking about. Maybe I shouldn'tve called him a jerk, but I feel it really was warranted.

Fine, DoctorJ, I'm a bad christian, but don't judge christianity by my actions, or any other layman or clergyman who may or may not be a good christian - judge christianity by christ alone.

You seem to think I'm being a hypocrite, but you are wrong. Got it? I'm not telling him to be christian, I'm just rebuking him ( and I'm justified in doing so) for saying "religion should be outlawed".

Yes, I know it's okay to disagree with people, did you think I was unaware of that?

How about addressing my actual point for a change instead of just criticising the way I'm making it?

Ancient1

Relax, little christian.

:rolleyes:

Ph3n0m

jesus did it for the chicks

pbsuxok1znja4r

Karl Hungus wrote:

WRONG! It's not Jesus, it's Buddha that is the only one person who can tell you how to live your life.

Fair enough, at least you're courageous enough to hold religious beliefs and express those beliefs in front of a forum full of people who will probably hate you for them. I commend you for that much. Would you care to explain how you arrived at the conclusion that Buddha, and not Jesus, is that one person?

pbsuxok1znja4r

Ph3n0m wrote:

jesus did it for the chicks

Why did you bother saying that? I might understand if it was actually funny, but that was so pointless. I don't get it. If you disagree with me, why not have the balls to come out and make your point? But don't just sit there taking cheap little potshots at my beliefs - that's cowardly. Why not put your beliefs on the line, against mine?

Ancient1

Because of this:

scouser.tommy wrote:

Actually, one person; goes by the name of Jesus, can tell you how to live your life.
BTW if something is "anti-muslim", that has sweet F all to do with "racism", it's called secterianism, you clueless jerk.
"Religion should be outlawed" ? Words can't express how much I despise people like you, Ruaidhri. Grow up.

Just listen to yourself. You're hysterical. Who hates you? What are you talking about? Why are you so touchy and sensitive?

Baggio

For me all that nasty metal stuff bashing cristianty is a disgrace,,and fules hatred,,,,music, especially rock music is about spirit and entertainment, not some nasty "get at them as much as ya can" kind of attitude , whats their beef i wonder??..I find nothing remotely "entertaining" in insulting and running down a faith no matter what it is, for me these so called "stars" are nothing short of foul mouthed insulting hogs, no respect for them whatsoever.
The new Law??...anti muslim?..possibly..is a fine line to walk a law that stops fanatiscm yet doesnt want to impinge on rights. But guess what humanity isn't perfect..God alone has perfect laws,,is up to each individual to live life in accordance with that, or in their on way..this is called freewill.
I have no problem with other faiths, went to school in UK with every sort, am proud to be a church going man, never want to be anything else either. SO I dont take kindly to folks wearing stuff thats blatantly insulting to Christianity, its what I believe in, and I make noo apologies for it. Doesnt mean I cant enjoy great Rock music and hey i do!... so thats my 10c's worth...but anyway really this subject is tooo serious and important to be in this "music" forum I think most would agree there.

ciao' amigos...Baggio....

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

scouser.tommy wrote:

Actually, one person; goes by the name of Jesus, can tell you how to live your life.
.

apollonius christ!

I'm allowed to tell people I despise them. I wouldn't have called him clueless if he wasn't so obviously ignorant as to what he's talking about. Maybe I shouldn'tve called him a jerk, but I feel it really was warranted.

Jesus wouldn't have. You should be ashamed of yourself, but you're probably not.

Fine, DoctorJ, I'm a bad christian, but don't judge christianity by my actions, or any other layman or clergyman who may or may not be a good christian - judge christianity by christ alone.

so should we judge america by Bush alone? Christianity is made up of christians. Jesus Christ died a long time ago. He really isn't relevant in this day and age.

Ruaidhri said...

it's my view that religion causes too many blinkered bigoted views, and as such should be outlawed. no one person or book can tell you how to lead your life.

no, blinkered bigots cause blinkered bigoted views. it's just that blinkered bigots tend to like Religion. It's simple and uncomplicated, doesn't warrant any unnessecary thinking.

Doctor J

scouser.tommy wrote:

I'm allowed to tell people I despise them. I wouldn't have called him clueless if he wasn't so obviously ignorant as to what he's talking about. Maybe I shouldn'tve called him a jerk, but I feel it really was warranted.

Fine, DoctorJ, I'm a bad christian, but don't judge christianity by my actions, or any other layman or clergyman who may or may not be a good christian - judge christianity by christ alone.

You seem to think I'm being a hypocrite, but you are wrong. Got it? I'm not telling him to be christian, I'm just rebuking him ( and I'm justified in doing so) for saying "religion should be outlawed".

Yes, I know it's okay to disagree with people, did you think I was unaware of that?

How about addressing my actual point for a change instead of just criticising the way I'm making it?

I'm not judging you or any religion at all. I'm just disappointed that you continually resort to personal abuse when you don't like someone's comments. You seem to think it's ok to insult people here, well it's not. Cop on to yourself. This is an area for discussion. By and large this is a good natured forum with plenty of scope for different viewpoints and opinions. If you disagree with that and think you have the right to insult people just because they have a different opinion to you or make a comment you don't like then you need to have a good look at yourself. Seriously, I've lost count of how many threads where you've lost the rag and started hurling abuse at people. You've got to calm down and engage in dialogue, think before you start chastising someone. That's what grown ups do. Show some respect. "Do onto others..."

As for your point? Which one? Jesus? There are lots of religions stretching back to the dawn of time. Who's to say Christianity is the right way? As you'll see by my posts I don't endorse haterd of any kind, nor would I say I'm affiliated to any spitirual organisation, I try to live a good life and show respect to others. I decide what I do and how I live. Does that make me a bad person? Well, I'm not the agressive one here, that's for sure. I will say this, if you can't abide by the rules of Christianity (or any religion for that matter) then don't impose it on others until you can.

Karl Hungus

scouser.tommy wrote:

I commend you for that much. Would you care to explain how you arrived at the conclusion that Buddha, and not Jesus, is that one person?

Only if you explain how you arrived at the conclusion that Jesus, and not Buddha (Or Allah, or Odin, or any other deity for that matter) without falling back on dogmatic hand-me-downs first.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Ancient1 wrote:

Because of this:


Just listen to yourself. You're hysterical. Who hates you? What are you talking about? Why are you so touchy and sensitive?

You're the one who's hysterical, methinks. Who hates me? I don't know, you tell me; you're the one who called me "little christian", like it was a derogatory term.

I'm talking about religious beliefs, haven't you figured that out yet?

If I appear touchy or sensitive, it's probably because I am. It matters to me when people slag my beliefs or slag me for having them. I wish I could make other people see the truth, and it's so frustating for me when their minds are so closed.

Doctor J

Baggio wrote:

but anyway really this subject is tooo serious and important to be in this "music" forum I think most would agree there.

+1

Ancient1

forum full of people who will probably hate you for them

These are your words.

Ancient1

I wish I could make other people see the truth

Damn.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Mordeth wrote:

apollonius christ!
blinkered bigots cause blinkered bigoted views. it's just that blinkered bigots tend to like Religion. It's simple and uncomplicated, doesn't warrant any unnessecary thinking.

You're talking utter rubish there. Religion is neither simple nor uncomplicated. It warrants thinking, lots of it. I have to ask myself whether every action I take is morally right or wrong, before I do it; religion warrants caution and consideration with every action. I don't know how you got the foolish idea that it was simple.

Ph3n0m

scouser.tommy wrote:

Why did you bother saying that? I might understand if it was actually funny, but that was so pointless. I don't get it. If you disagree with me, why not have the balls to come out and make your point? But don't just sit there taking cheap little potshots at my beliefs - that's cowardly. Why not put your beliefs on the line, against mine?

ouch, how hyper-sensitive are you today. What I said was a quote from a tshirt I have, which I find funny - twasn't a dig at your beliefs. I dont disgree with you, because I dont even know what point you were trying to make

And another thing - please, please stop talking about my balls - in fact I thought "your" religion was against that

This message was brought to you by me and the power of the internet

Karl Hungus

scouser.tommy wrote:

You're talking utter rubish there. Religion is neither simple nor uncomplicated. It warrants thinking, lots of it. I have to ask myself whether every action I take is morally right or wrong, before I do it; religion warrants caution and consideration with every action. I don't know how you got the foolish idea that it was simple.

You're waffling away without a context like an asumed martyr here Tommy... Mordeth never said that Religion is simple or uncomplicated, merely that the bigots = biggoted view, and that's what he's refering to as simple to understand.

Although as uncomplicated a point as it may be, you need to take a deep breath and actually bother to read what's there in front of you, because as it is, it looks like you're looking for things to jump down someone's throat for.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Karl Hungus wrote:

You're waffling away without a context like an asumed martyr here Tommy... Mordeth never said that Religion is simple or uncomplicated, merely that the bigots = biggoted view, and that's what he's refering to as simple to understand.

Although as uncomplicated a point as it may be, you need to take a deep breath and actually bother to read what's there in front of you, because as it is, it looks like you're looking for things to jump down someone's throat for.

Actually, he did say that religion was simple and uncomplicated. Go back and read his post please.

Karl Hungus

Mordeth wrote:

no, blinkered bigots cause blinkered bigoted views. it's just that blinkered bigots tend to like Religion. It's simple and uncomplicated, doesn't warrant any unnessecary thinking.

I'm reading it, and I still see his equation about bigots = biggoted views, and the notion that the bigots in religion giving it an air of biggotry. You take it out of the context that it was in, which is replying to Ruiadhri's notion that religion itself that causes biggotry. If you ever bothered to read and understand it, it would probably be a point you could get behind, Tommy.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Karl, if you really do want me to explain how I came to believe in christianity, I will explain it. But it will take quite a long time, and patience and open-mindedness on your part. I think if i tried to do it here I would probably just get random death-metallers coming in and slagging christianity though

Ancient1

Please don't explain. Take it to the christianity forum.

random death-metallers coming in and slagging christianity though

It's not that simple, Tommy.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Karl Hungus wrote:

I'm reading it, and I still see his equation about bigots = biggoted views, and the notion that the bigots in religion giving it an air of biggotry. You take it out of the context that it was in, which is replying to Ruiadhri's notion that religion itself that causes biggotry. If you ever bothered to read and understand it, it would probably be a point you could get behind, Tommy.

No, you're right, I agree with him when he says that it is bigots, and not religion, who cause blinkered views, but, he goes on to say that bigots are attracted to religion because "it is simple and uncomplicated"...."doesn't warrant any unnessecary thinking". <-- That is the part I really disagree with.

Ph3n0m

scouser.tommy wrote:

Karl, if you really do want me to explain how I came to believe in christianity, I will explain it. But it will take quite a long time, and patience and open-mindedness on your part. I think if i tried to do it here I would probably just get random death-metallers coming in and slagging christianity though

Christianity, buddhism, nihilists, in fact anyone in general irrespective of colour, creed or religion are open game for slagging - we death metallers are equal opportunists (inbetween the goat sacrifices and having our filthy way with nubile virgins)

Karl Hungus

scouser.tommy wrote:

Karl, if you really do want me to explain how I came to believe in christianity, I will explain it.

Where on earth did you get the idea I wanted you to explain how you came upon your beliefs? Because I remember asking you how you think you're beliefs are any more 'Correct' than anyone else. Read and understand before replying thanks.

Karl Hungus

scouser.tommy wrote:

No, you're right, I agree with him when he says that it is bigots, and not religion, who cause blinkered views, but, he goes on to say that bigots are attracted to religion because "it is simple and uncomplicated"...."doesn't warrant any unnessecary thinking". <-- That is the part I really disagree with.

Perhaps... But doesn't your religion rely more on Faith than thinking?

pbsuxok1znja4r

Karl Hungus wrote:

Where on earth did you get the idea I wanted you to explain how you came upon your beliefs? Because I remember asking you how you think you're beliefs are any more 'Correct' than anyone else. Read and understand before replying thanks.

FFS, you know what I'm saying. When I asked you to explain how you came to the conclusion that Buddha was the person who could tell people how to live, you responded by asking me to first explain why I believed Jesus was that person, "without falling back on dogmatic hand-me-downs", do you remember saying that?