Caliber Change, Treated as New Appllication?

Keelan

If someone could give me the clear facts on this matter I would be greatfull.
I have been told, at my local garda station, that, if i change my .22 Hornet to a .223, i would have to wait for a month or so, as its treated as a new appllication.
Is this the norm?
How come other folks here, have had no probs with this and changed within a few miniutes?
Is it a fact about who you know that counts?
Thanks for any info.

Sparks

I'm fairly sure that a calibre change doesn't require a new licence application. That said, I've yet to see a clearcut Garda Procedures Manual for firearms licensing...

Rovi

I don't think there's any great conspiracy or 'who you know' nudges and winks sort of thing going on here.
It's more a symptom of the lack of knowledge and basically conservative nature of the firearms officers and Superintendents who deal with this, and the variation of same from one district to another.

We all know that the .22 Hornet has a nominal calibre of 0.223" and the .223 Rem is actually 0.224" and are in fact slightly different, but the Guards in question are merely looking at the names of the calibres and are concluding that .223 is bigger than .22 and is thus a calibre change.
This also explains why it has historically been possible to licence a .220 Swift as easily as a .22 LR. .22 and .220 are the same thing, aren't they? :rolleyes:

There's also the notion that the .223 Rem is a 'military round,' and is thus somehow inherently much more dangerous that 'ordinary' ammunition and likely to cause rivers of blood in the streets. We know this to be a fallacy, but the people who count (in this case, the Gardai) often have no particular interest or training in the details of these things, and they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

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Trojan911

Keelan,
My dealer in Cork informed me that I could change up to a .250 with my Hornet licence without going through the re-applying process when I went in to buy the .223. Unfortunately I can't find it written anywhere. Try looking up the firearms Act 1964 sec 11 is the closest. Or again contact the Dept of Justice firearms section for advice.

TJ911...

Keelan

Thanks for the info.

Ammoman

Keelan wrote:

Thanks for the info.

Heres something that I have come across ,

11.—(1) Subject to subsection (3) of this section, the Minister may substitute for the description of a firearm in a firearm certificate granted by him the description of another firearm and, upon such substitution, the certificate shall have effect in relation to that other firearm and shall not have effect in relation to the first-mentioned firearm.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) of this section, the Superintendent of any district or any member of the Garda Síochána in any district duly authorised to do so by the Superintendent of that district may substitute for the description of a firearm in a firearm certificate held by a person residing in that district the description of another firearm and, upon such substitution, the certificate shall have effect in relation to that other firearm and shall not have effect in relation to the first-mentioned firearm.

(3) A substitution under this section in a firearm certificate shall not be effected unless the rate of excise duty chargeable in respect of a renewal of the certificate after the substitution does not exceed the rate chargeable immediately before such substitution.

We have received a number of complaints from members with respect to their application to have a change of firearm on a current certificate:

A number of individuals have been told that they will need to re-apply for a firearms certificate in respect of a firearm that they are trying to acquire while at the same time disposing of the existing firearm, essentially looking to change the number and or description on the certificate.

It is clear from the reports that it has come from Garda HQ that in certain circumstances individuals will have to re-apply for a certificate for any new firearm that they wish to acquire, in typical ham fisted approach of the Gardai they are yet again alienating the shooting community by making up the rules as they go along....................

Well yet again they are wrong as clearly outlined in the extract from the 1964 legislation and yet again they will end up giving away more than they want to, out interpretation of the above legislation means that any firearms certificate can be amended for any other firearm the legislation does not make any distinction with respect to the category or calibre of firearm.

It would have been reasonable to accept that one could exchange a firearms certificate for a firearm of the same calibre and type and this has generally been the case, now however sticking to the present legislation it is possible to insist that any firearm be substituted on ones certificate.

Any one having issues with respect to amendment of certificates please quote the above legislation and any refusal by the gardai to amend a certificate is contrary to the current legislation.

Regards
Declan Keogh
FLAG Sub Committee
SSAI

Keelan

Many thanks.

woody

Methinks the Gardai need a little education about firearms as a whole as we all know with my feck up recently and being legally being able to look like Robocop

thelurcher

Great info Ammoman! I was thinking of changing my CZ .22wmr to one of the new Sako's in .22lr and .22wmr but didn't want to go to all the hassle.
Local guard is fair enough but has confined me to two guns only!

Rovi

thelurcher wrote:

Great info Ammoman! I was thinking of changing my CZ .22wmr to one of the new Sako's in .22lr and .22wmr but didn't want to go to all the hassle.
Local guard is fair enough but has confined me to two guns only!

If you're talking about the Sako Quad and planning to get two barrels for it, you'll be filling your 'two gun quota' right there, or is that what you meant?
That's certainly been the practice up to now with interchangable barrelled guns or replacement/spare barrels, and the barrels will probably have to have serial numbers on them too.

For mucho entertainment, try licencing a combination gun (usually a double barrelled shotgun/rifle set-up). I've heard all sorts of horror stories of people having to get two licences for the one gun and other such nonsense.
Anyone got one, and how did you licence it?

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Flattop 15

For mucho entertainment, try licencing a combination gun (usually a double barrelled shotgun/rifle set-up). I've heard all sorts of horror stories of people having to get two licences for the one gun and other such nonsense.
Anyone got one, and how did you licence it?

I have a savage 22wmr/20GA,After explaining to the local gardai as to what it was.They simply went and liscensed it as a rifle[proably because it makes more money].Have had no problem getting 20GA ammo for it either.Until they actually saw it they had no clue what one was.

thelurcher

Rovi - should have guessed that common sence shouldn't be counted on when dealing with the gards :rolleyes:
I suppose it would be a total waste of time to try and explain my case?
In the UK it goes on their license as one gun i.e. the Quad.

I have a semi auto shotgun and my application was held up for an extra month because they wanted to know if it was a single or double barrel :eek:
The local garda put them right.
I think we're often inclined to look on 'authority figures' as being somhow smarter than us but the average garda IQ seems to be a lot lower than what I'm used to dealing with every day. I'm not taking the p*** it's just an observation.

Rovi

Flattop 15 wrote:

I have a savage 22wmr/20GA,After explaining to the local gardai as to what it was.They simply went and liscensed it as a rifle[proably because it makes more money].Have had no problem getting 20GA ammo for it either.Until they actually saw it they had no clue what one was.

That's interesting and doesn't sound too painful, but as we all know, we're supposed to have a licence with a calibre and ammunition limit on it in order to purchase and possess ammunition.
How did they suggest you legally purchase 20Ga cartridges?
Or was it one of those 'Ara sure go on and buy whatever you like, no-one bothers with that stuff anyway" things???
:rolleyes:

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Rovi

thelurcher wrote:

Rovi - should have guessed that common sence shouldn't be counted on when dealing with the gards :rolleyes:
I suppose it would be a total waste of time to try and explain my case?
In the UK it goes on their license as one gun i.e. the Quad.

Which would appear to be the sensible way to do it, but they have a different licencing system over there and this situation fits in quite nicely.
I doubt it'd do any harm to have a little meeting to explain your case. The worst that'll happen is that you'll have to licence the second barrel as a separate gun.
Print off the Current Sako Catalogue (2MB PDF), and show them the Quad.
Apparently, the barrels are serial numbered -http://www.sako.fi/quad_colorcodes.html
I assume they have unique numbers, and would be different from the receiver. Anyone know for sure?
The dealer you're planning to purchase from should know or be able to find out.

thelurcher wrote:

I have a semi auto shotgun and my application was held up for an extra month because they wanted to know if it was a single or double barrel :eek:
The local garda put them right.
I think we're often inclined to look on 'authority figures' as being somhow smarter than us but the average garda IQ seems to be a lot lower than what I'm used to dealing with every day. I'm not taking the p*** it's just an observation.

I don't know if that's entirely fair. We're all in here because we're enthusiasts and have an interest in the subject. It's unreasonable to expect that every Garda in the country have the same level of knowledge and interest. Even among ourselves, that's a fair bit of disagreement and erroneous information floating about.
As with all big hierarchical organisations, a high priority in everyone's decision making process is that their own arse is covered. This has a huge bearing on the very conservative system we have to deal with in order to pursue our hobby.

In the Gardai, is dealing with firearms licencing viewed as a promotion or a demotion, or as something to be strenuously avoided, does anyone know?

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Rew

I reckon its a mixed thing some just don't want to be bothered others are gun nuts who enjoy the job. Either way they have to deal with the supers who are an even more mixed bunch!

Flattop 15

Rovi wrote:

That's interesting and doesn't sound too painful, but as we all know, we're supposed to have a licence with a calibre and ammunition limit on it in order to purchase and possess ammunition.
How did they suggest you legally purchase 20Ga cartridges?
Or was it one of those 'Ara sure go on and buy whatever you like, no-one bothers with that stuff anyway" things???

:rolleyes:

Quite frankly they never mentioned this matter.And I wasnt going to push the point.Hey..sure what would I know?I am just a mere dumb civillian taxpayer!!
THEY are the ones who are supposed to know the law.If they dont want to know,or dont know.Is there any obligation on us sheep er citizens to put them right?

thelurcher

I've nothing much against the gards really Rovi.
I get a lot of jobs/responsibilities at work and don't like many of them but I still go ahead and research as much as possible about them - only a fool wouldn't.

A garda in charge of firearms should make it his business to get a few gun mags now and again to see what's going on in the trade, surf the net, check out the likes of this forum etc. etc. - it might be no harm for the local clay clubs etc to invite the firearms garda out once in a while and make a big deal of the day.

I should say, and most of you may have copped it already I'm no genius myself.