Playing against a maniac

Hectorjelly

Ok you have been sitting at this table for a a while and there is a crazy player who is raising every pot. He never limps into it, every pot is made $5 preflop. If someone else raises before him then he might call, but quite often reraises. He was all in a few hands ago for $150 pot with a pair of fours. His opponent had AK. Before the start of this hand you both have $350. Crucially you know that your opponent whilst he is playing madly, is a good player at heart. He hasnt made a wrong move yet. You reraised him earlier with AA expecting some action but he folded.

You have KK on the sb. There are a few limpers and crazy guy makes it $5. You call - everyone else folds. The flop is 8 8 T - 2 diamonds. You check and he bets $8. That means nothing, he about bets that amount on every flop. You make it $25. He calls after some deliberation.

Turn is the 2 of diamonds. Whilst you dont like that card you bet $35. He calls.

River is an 8, for a board of 8 8 T 2 8. A flush is no good any more. You bet $50. He puts you all in for $235 more. Easy fold?

ZZR1100

easy fold?.Are u serious.he cant put u on KK and if he has an 8 well tough.easy call.

CoD

i'd call, and say he has a ten, or some sort of pocketpair, perhaps even lower than a ten.
I'll say he has a house but not as good as yours.

Dont think he'd play flopped trips like that with the draw there, although he prob thought you were scared of the draw too in the way it was bet.

I say you have him hes got something like 9To

Hectorjelly

This guy isnt stupid, a ten would just call the river

califano

i dont know but its definately not an easy fold. just dont say he had a pair of tens.

padraig_f

I think I'd call it. You bet $50 into a $130 pot on the river which suggests you might fold to a reraise, I can't believe if he has quads he doesn't want more value from it. His reraise seems more designed to get someone to fold than to call.

impr0v

Perhaps he's been reading the same 2+2 posts as you have.

I guess the key is the deliberation before calling your $25 raise, as you have very little other information. Is that deliberation as to whether to call at all, or is he deliberating whether to re-raise?

I think if he had the 8 he would have re-raised your $25 on the flop, to make sure you weren't chasing a diamond(unlikely anyway) and to gather more information on your hand. As you say, the flat call on the river would be the best move with the single T. If he had TT, there would be no need to deliberate, he'd just move into money extracting mode, but he'd flat call, as he did to let you see more cards, but i think he'd look for more money on the turn, and also wouldn't push on the river, he'd be looking for a pay-off rather than the chance of you folding.

I'd say large pocket pair, perhaps rockets, though i'd doubt it. JJ/QQ/The other two Ks?

TacT

very tough fold, give the man your stack or take a big chunk out of him I say, did you consider sticking him all-in preflop at all? Reason I'm asking is since he's that kind of player I would have done so personally and not given him a chance to catch anything because he's calling any raise. Put him to a decision before he sees any cards and don't give him a chance to catch, it's the only way you get that kind of player to fold. If you don't have position on them, I like to limp the bullets then steal the raise with a nice all-in after everyone else gets sucked into calling the maniacs persistent raising.

So, what did he have anyway?

Tighten up ship and show them the nuts!

Hectorjelly

impr0v is close the mark. The maniac in the hand was in fact me. I had A8. My opponent called straight away and I thought it was a bad call, at least worthy of consideration. Whilst I was playing crazily preflop I was playing well after the flop.

Preflop - It was suited and I had position. I was literally raising 100% of the time in position, with almost any 2 cards. A8 was actually pretty good compared to some of the stuff I was showing down If he had of reraised me at all I would of folded.

Flop - I was betting every flop, so a check is beyond stupid. When he raised me I knew what he had. An overpair, maybe TT but much more likely JJ - QQ. Kk or AA I think he might have reraised preflop. If I three bet the hand he is going to fold, or at least he has to consider the possibility that I have an 8. I didnt want to give away any free info. I think its unlikely he has a flush draw.

Turn - Nasty, I doubt he has the flush, but he might think I have it

River - He now has a full house, so im really going to make him pay for a showdown. If he folds ill type in 34s and hopefully tilt him

I dont think he made a mistake preflop, the chances of me having a hand are so slim, but I think when he called the flop he should of realised that an 8 was a definite possibility, and played in a way that limited his potential losses. The river call was bad IMO, I think my range is pretty much AA - TT or an 8. Small chance of a big bluff but unlikely.

Tackle

Great play.

I'd love to be able to play this really aggressive style. Whenever I sit down and say I'll give it a go, I usually end up bleeding off cash and I revert back to tight aggressive.
How long did it take you long to make this a profitable playing stye?
More importantly, how did you know your 44 was good for $150 in the earlier hand?

Hectorjelly

Tackle wrote:

Great play.

I'd love to be able to play this really aggressive style. Whenever I sit down and say I'll give it a go, I usually end up bleeding off cash and I revert back to tight aggressive.
How long did it take you long to make this a profitable playing stye?
More importantly, how did you know your 44 was good for $150 in the earlier hand?

Well it can work, but then playing very tight and nut peddling works at 50 1 as well. You have to be able to read hands very well because you will constantly be reraised with all sorts of hands. I knew the 44 was good because the action went, limp limp limp I make it $5 button goes all in for $75. I was surprised to see AK actually, thought it was going to be KQ or At or some muck. The player in question would of raised normally with AA/KK.

NickyOD

You got it all in preflop with a pair of 4s?

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

You got it all in preflop with a pair of 4s?

I wouldnt recommend it as a general strategy, but if I think Im up against AK ill call all in with any pair.

Ste05

Well HJ, that is impressive stuff, nice to see someone with that much confidence, I'd say there was some choice notes written about you tonight.

I can see how this style could be very profitable, (if you're an excellent pre-flop player - as you obviously are) get the whole table on tilt in a matter of minutes, then any kind of rag flop they'd be afraid of picking up small pot after small pot and the odd monster pot. My problem would be pushing at the wrong time, or folding to a re-raise steal too often.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

You got it all in preflop with a pair of 4s?

I just called all in with A2, only for $50 though

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

I just called all in with A2, only for $50 though

Hectorjelly wrote:

He was all in a few hands ago for $150 pot with a pair of fours.

?

accensi0n

Hectorjelly wrote:

I just called all in with A2, only for $50 though

Was there a showdown? What did the other player have and what did you think he had?

Hectorjelly

accensi0n wrote:

Was there a showdown? What did the other player have and what did you think he had?

it was blind battle. I limped he bet $50 all in and I called. He had J7o and hit a jack. I had no idea what he was going to turn over, but I knew it was an essentially random hand based on the previous hands.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

?

In poker your hand has no absolute strength. (or almost never, if you have the nuts or the worsthand possible it does), its strength is only relative to your opponents hands. When deciding on your action on each street you need to take into account your opponents hands, and make the decision based on the difference between your hands. A good player should be able to fold quads if he feels he is beat, or call all in with K high on the river if he thinks he is ahead.

This is why general threads like, "I have AK should I call all in" are silly. If you think your up against a pair then no, if you are up against AQ then you should call. You have to forget what cards you have, and think about the difference between your cards and your opponents cards. So preflop if you think your opponent is moving in with Q high, you should call with any k.

In both those hands my read was that I had a substantial equity edge over the range of hands I put them on, so I called.

Marq

Hectorjelly wrote:

The maniac in the hand was in fact me.

Did everyone else think this straight away or was it just me?
Nice post Hector, even nicer hand.

Hectorjelly

Thanks Marq. Playing the same opponent again tonight, I actually felt sorry for him.

Hand 1
I get 3 6s and make it $5 from mp. He calls from sb.

Flop is 4 J 5r. He checks to me, I bet $8, he makes it $16, I call.

Turn is 7. He bets 16. I make it 50. He calls.

River is 6. Theres now a possible flush. He bets 30. This is clearly a blocking bet and there is almost no chance of my hand not being good but I wuss out and flat call. He has JJJ.


Hand 2
I raise from button after limpers with Q6s. I cant remember the exact action, but I ended up making a $150 bluff on the river with a busted flush draw. He clearly wasnt happy afterwards. Board was 7 7 K J x, and he folded 67.

Hand 3
Then in the next hand. I get AKs. I make it 5 again. He raises me 16. Clearly I have to call this with position and implied tilt odds.

The flop is 9d Kd 5s. Lovely flop - not much chance of being behind and no draws. He bets 16, I call.

Turn is K. Hurrah, I just outdrew AA. We both check.

River is 4. He bets 20, I go all in. He calls. He has JJ again

If poker was always this easy I would be a multimillionaire

Tackle

36s, Q7s!!! :D:D
I have a feeling this style of play can be very profitable if done right, as you've shown.
I was watching a 2/4 game the other night where the max buy in is $300 and there was a guy with $800 at the table. He was playing quite like you, except he was kind of passive preflop, rarely raised although called every raise and showed the raiser very little respect. As soon as the flop hit sparks would fly, he was playing so fast, guys were folding what had to be better hands. They were afraid to get into a pot with him until they tilted, and then they got cleaned out.
I was only watching for about 20 mins and he had turned that $800 into $1300. He lost big now and again but his wins more than made up for it.
I had ago of it myself this morning downstream at .25/.50. Went fairly well, I was raising 4xBB with 109 and better. Most times I take the pot with a bet and if I was reraised I'd fold.
Once, I had Q10 and raised (which I wouldn't normally do) - flop Q67. I bet and was called and then raised so I folded. The two guys ended up all in with KQ and 67 and I was out fairly cheap.
There was one guy on BB who I kept raising from the SB with crap, just to annoy him. I could see he was getting seriously pissed off, he went all in on a few flops and won small pots, he was obviously tilting. I raised from the button with JJ and he went all in. He had A9o and got busted. Definately have to experiment more with this style.

Imposter

Tackle wrote:

Definately have to experiment more with this style.

I've been playing a bit like this lately too, but as a strategy it comes unhinged against players who play passively against it and will call your bets down and only bet on the river (obviously when they've a hand and/or are drawing). You keep thinking they are drawing but too often they are not.

I'm thinking checking the turn regularly with or without a hand might combat this but it also opens up more problems.

Samba

nh, what an eejit for flat calling. This technique will get you action on all your big hands in future, however there will certainly be times where playing like a maniac can lead you in to trouble. you will catch what you percieve to be a nice bit of the flop i.e trips when someone lands a house but in the long run if you can play this style and win consistently, hiccups are acceptable.

Now tell us about the hands that made you blush

hermann

hi everyone.

Hectorjelly wrote:

there is almost no chance of my hand not being good but I wuss out and flat call.

I do this all the time. On the river i'm 75% sure i'm ahead and i know i should be getting as much money in as possible but I stupidly think "no reason to risk the whole stack" and flat call. It's getting so bad i sometimes do it on the turn giving people a cheap card.

I could never pull off this super-aggressive style all the time but on the bubble in an STT it is magic. When you've barely played a hand the whole game and suddenly you start raising EVERY hand 3BB people crap themselves.

careca

Marq wrote:

Did everyone else think this straight away or was it just me?
Nice post Hector, even nicer hand.

Deceived me I'm afraid. Never even entered my calculations. Nice post (again) hector.

dirkey_wynne

Hectorjelly wrote:

Crucially you know that your opponent whilst he is playing madly, is a good player at heart. He hasnt made a wrong move yet.

I realised when I read these two choice lines. Haha, i like it.

Tackle

Loving this style!
Last two hands:
Raised with K10 from BB, one caller, a good player. Bet out on a Q high flop he folds.
Next hand, raised from the SB with 99, same caller. Flop JTA, bet $4, he calls, looks like I'll have to let this one go. Turn K, maybe not...... bet $20, villain folds.
It's great to get some action on your good hands too.

mewso

I understand the concept of getting it in with the best of it no matter what (51% v 49%?) but in NL Holdem cah games surely you must consider your bankroll assuming it isn't infinite.