Magnet Networks Trial

TomTom

I just signed up for a Magnet Networks Trial here in dublin 8. It consists of 4 meg broadband, digital TV, Video on demand and phone. From what i gathered its running over dsl2+. Has anyone got any information on dsl2+ as i'm curious as to how its going to work.

Apparently the trial is only available in a few small areas south of the liffey.

Drapper

TomTom wrote:

I just signed up for a Magnet Networks Trial here in dublin 8. It consists of 4 meg broadband, digital TV, Video on demand and phone. From what i gathered its running over dsl2+. Has anyone got any information on dsl2+ as i'm curious as to how its going to work.

Apparently the trial is only available in a few small areas south of the liffey.

They are the best out there from what I've herd! 200mb pipe to each home! but are very very limited, they instal Cat 5 / 6 in new developments and run voice date and streaming services over it !

BB is capped at 4mb but youcan oder more bandwidth on demand! and there is no contention, hence pings are SWEEEEEETTTT

good news for new developments but bad for old as it cannot be retro fitted without substantial expense.............

Sponge Bob

Magnet recently took over Leap who had LLU unbundled a few exchanges "south of the liffey" . I knew Leap were offering SDSL on those exchanges , I was not aware that they are now trialling ADSL2+ as well. 4Mbit is too fast for SDSL but the SDSL gear can probably support other DSL variants apart from SDSL .

The '200Mb to the home' package is available in certain large housing developments where fibre was installed during construction, that is not what they are trialling as it works . This would be the first TV over a Phoneline package in Ireland

TomTom , can you tell me

a) What is the Uplink speed on that 4mbit line

b) How long will it take them to unbundle your line (meaning how long will Eircom dick them around) ?

c) Will they offer you an NTL cable 'substitute' package from the word go over this ADSL2+ line ? They do have arrangements in place already to redistribute TV packages unlike every other BB provider apart from NTL obviously so this is quite do-able .

TomTom

It is being retro fitted, apparently they are going to roll out to existing homes and this is their trial in dublin. Using the phone line and dsl2+. I am in an existing home near heuston and just had the guy over to sign me up.

Sponge Bob

no retro fitting needed , its a phone line .

TomTom

From what i was told, they will install me either at the end of this week or at the start of next. The service includes 65 channel digital tv, and video on demand. A phone, either IP, standard or wireless. and 4meg broadband. I don't have any specs such as if its contended, or what the upload is. The phone includes free local and national calls, you only pay for mobile, premium and international. This is the premium package which is notmall 82 euro a month.

Sponge Bob

Is that 82 Euros for

1. TV ,
2. 4Mbit DSL and
3. Line Rental

all inclusive and with VAT included too ?

TomTom

The letter I have states its worth euro 82.99. Not sure weather thats with or without vat. Its free for me for about 4 months of the trial so i did not ask to many questions. Plus its obligation free. Its a month by mothn rolling contract.
not just line rental but free local and national. I think they treat them as add on packs, if you don't want the free national and local you subtract a tenner, if you want 3 or 3 meg you subtract more. same applies for tv, you subtract channels and pay less. Great Idea

Sponge Bob

Line rental is normally E24 (no free calls)
Basic TV package is E20 (about 20 channels)

Therefore you are getting a 4mbit DSL connection for E39 a month on top of that and free local and national calls .

Then its free for 4 months anyway and a no obligation month to month contract Thats enough to make me cry down here in the wesht

masteroftherealm

Oh god i think i just creamed myself!

Couch Potato

Sponge Bob wrote:

TV over a Phoneline package in Ireland

Is that possible ?

Sponge Bob

of course its not 4Mbit if you are watching the telly

AdMMM

While my knowledge of this subject isn't the best, won't watching the TV take away bandwidth from your 4mb line. As a games player this would be far from ideal. I have trouble enough persuading my family to get off the net when Im playing a game, I can't imagine "Turn off Coronation St Mam! You're making me lag" working at all

masteroftherealm

No its 200mb and 4mb is allocated for internet the rest for VOIP and TV

paulm17781

masteroftherealm wrote:

No its 200mb and 4mb is allocated for internet the rest for VOIP and TV

Are you sure about that? Is the 200mb not in areas where they do FTTH? This seems to be over phone lines.

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

This would be the first TV over a Phoneline package in Ireland

I had it in Bold for the slower ones amongst us too

Snaga

Couch Potato wrote:

Is that possible ?

Course it is......only for those phonelines that can support over 12Mb on an ADSL2+ line that is. (Thats taking 4Mb for Broadband and a rough guesstimate of 8Mb for TV).

Mutant_Fruit

phonelines can't support 200mb (to my knowledge)... they have to be either offering fibre to your door, or you've got your figures wrong.

TomTom

I asked around and was told that adsl2+ was 25 meg. I'll know more when they come to install and i'll report back.

bk

It depends, if it is Fiber To The Home (FTTH) then they should be able to do TV (VoD).

However if it is ADSL2+, then it will be much more difficult and there would be a lot of questions to ask.

ADSL2+ is capable of up to 24Mbit/s, however that is only at very short distances, realistically in Ireland you would be looking at about 8Mbit/s max.

The problem with TV over DSL is bit rates. If you are encoding a Standard Definition (SD) TV channel using MPEG2, you are looking at about 4 Mbit/s, if you use MPEG4 you might get it down to 1 - 2 Mbit/s and you can forget about HD (about 10Mbit/s using MPEG4).

And this is for only one channel/TV, each additional TV you want in your home with it's own independent channels will require another 4Mbit/s!!!

Also don't forget about contention ratios, you can't have a 48:1 type contention ratios if everyone is using 4Mbit/s for each channel, it just won't work.

That is why most people in the industry just don't believe that TV and VoD will be realistically possible over standard DSL technologies, it just doesn't work. Instead most believe FTTH or Fiber To The Curb (FTTC) with VDSL to the home will be required to allow TV VoD services.

Ironically, it is the cable TV companies who are in the best position to offer TV VoD services, modern fiber-coax networks used by cable companies have far greater bandwidth and therefore capacity then DSL technology (telephone lines only go up to about 1100Khz, while cable can go up to 900Mhz!!!). I say ironically, because they need TV VoD the least, they can already offer hundreds of channels on their network and therefore don't need it as badly. Interestingly must VoD services already in operation are from cable companies, such as Comcast and Time Warner in the US and NTL in the UK. They usually offer them in addition to they ordinary TV line-up with new release feature films (PPV), PPV sport events and catch-ups of missed TV shows.

Marcopolo85

bk wrote:

It depends, if it is Fiber To The Home (FTTH) then they should be able to do TV (VoD).

However if it is ADSL2+, then it will be much more difficult and there would be a lot of questions to ask.

ADSL2+ is capable of up to 24Mbit/s, however that is only at very short distances, realistically in Ireland you would be looking at about 8Mbit/s max.

The problem with TV over DSL is bit rates. If you are encoding a Standard Definition (SD) TV channel using MPEG2, you are looking at about 4 Mbit/s, if you use MPEG4 you might get it down to 1 - 2 Mbit/s and you can forget about HD (about 10Mbit/s using MPEG4).

And this is for only one channel/TV, each additional TV you want in your home with it's own independent channels will require another 4Mbit/s!!!

Also don't forget about contention ratios, you can't have a 48:1 type contention ratios if everyone is using 4Mbit/s for each channel, it just won't work.

That is why most people in the industry just don't believe that TV and VoD will be realistically possible over standard DSL technologies, it just doesn't work. Instead most believe FTTH or Fiber To The Curb (FTTC) with VDSL to the home will be required to allow TV VoD services.

Ironically, it is the cable TV companies who are in the best position to offer TV VoD services, modern fiber-coax networks used by cable companies have far greater bandwidth and therefore capacity then DSL technology (telephone lines only go up to about 1100Khz, while cable can go up to 900Mhz!!!). I say ironically, because they need TV VoD the least, they can already offer hundreds of channels on their network and therefore don't need it as badly. Interestingly must VoD services already in operation are from cable companies, such as Comcast and Time Warner in the US and NTL in the UK. They usually offer them in addition to they ordinary TV line-up with new release feature films (PPV), PPV sport events and catch-ups of missed TV shows.

Got it in one bk! I would point out, though, that this is Ireland. How many people are prepared to pay a premium for VoD? It would be interesting to see how many Sky subs actually avail of Sky Box Office? I was talking to someone recently who was in a house where Sky had been installed for a few weeks. They were still renting DVDs from Xtravision!!

paulyx

It's FTTH this may help

http://www.magnet.ie/

JTMan

Thier Channnel line up is dire. ( http://www.magnet.ie/television.aspx ). For a digital TV package to only include 20 stations is poor. Me sticks with NTL Digital.

ro2

bk wrote:

It depends, if it is Fiber To The Home (FTTH) then they should be able to do TV (VoD).

However if it is ADSL2+, then it will be much more difficult and there would be a lot of questions to ask.

ADSL2+ is capable of up to 24Mbit/s, however that is only at very short distances, realistically in Ireland you would be looking at about 8Mbit/s max.

The problem with TV over DSL is bit rates. If you are encoding a Standard Definition (SD) TV channel using MPEG2, you are looking at about 4 Mbit/s, if you use MPEG4 you might get it down to 1 - 2 Mbit/s and you can forget about HD (about 10Mbit/s using MPEG4).

I'd say that's doable with MPEG4 and ADSL2. They'd just multicast the data to each exchange and as the user changes the channel on their box they'd join the multicast for that channel. Then they'd do qos on the line so the multicast has higher priority than the Internet.

There'd be no issues with contention either as each user has a separate path to the exchange.

paulm17781

paulyx wrote:

It's FTTH this may help

http://www.magnet.ie/

It's FTTH in new developments. I would be surprised if they are offering this in the City Centre (unless it is a brand new development).

Sponge Bob

Tom Tom was not offered FTTH he was offered a trial of ADSL2+ over a phone line

zuma

Hey people at least FTTH exists in Ireland!

thegills

Hey people at least FTTH exists in Ireland!

Don't get carried away. It's Fibre onle as far as the housing development Comms room and then CAT 5/6 to each house.

The old Magnet was rolling out triple play using fibre (on the MAN's outside Dublin) and the old Leap were about to trial ADSL2+ using fibre to the eircom exchanges (on the MAN's outside Dublin)...for all MAN begrudgers.

The new company is now doing both and looks like being a real player over the next 12 months. Leap still operate their business FWA and have good coverage in the main urban areas.

thegills

paulm17781

thegills wrote:

Don't get carried away. It's Fibre onle as far as the housing development Comms room and then CAT 5/6 to each house.

Are you sure? I remember seeing a picture that showed the box they install in each house. It showed a part that said something along the lines of "This is where the fibre enters your home". The picture was posted here, perhaps someone still has it!?

loyatemu

similar offering in london described here - not using fibre.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,1546147,00.html

nicamuke

I live in one of the devlopments with Magnet infrastructure. The fiber comes into the hall and plugs into a switch . It's CAT5 from there to the outlets.

Drapper

nicamuke wrote:

I live in one of the devlopments with Magnet infrastructure. The fiber comes into the hall and plugs into a switch . It's CAT5 from there to the outlets.

tell me more tell me more?

BTW there is a development in Portloiase with Magnet too (using the MAN)! Pillar outside the development with switch gear and cat 5e in all houses!

nicamuke

I've got Tv, BB and Telebone. It's cool, I can plug my Laptop into any outlet in the house, same goes for my phone and set top box. The BB connection is 2mb uncontended and has been bullet proof for the last 6 months, It's so fast I've downloaded stuff before I click the mouse.
I saw an add on the Tv3 about a development in portlaoise, think it's called fairview or fairgreen or something, magnet as supposedly in there too..

Marcopolo85

Fungus wrote:

Thier Channnel line up is dire. ( http://www.magnet.ie/television.aspx ). For a digital TV package to only include 20 stations is poor. Me sticks with NTL Digital.

Looks fairly standard alright. Just an analogue tier broadcast in Digital format.

bk

loyatemu wrote:

similar offering in london described here - not using fibre.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,1546147,00.html

Yes, it can be done, however it just doesn't scale as well as FTTH or cable.

1) It is only capable of transmitting Standard Definition TV, it won't be able to do High Definition. Sky and the cable companies are expected to roll out HD next year, this will be a major problem for HomeChoice.

2) You can only get/watch one channel at a time. You can't have multiple TV's in your house or record one channel while watching another!! This is a basic feature of Sky, cable and DTT and it is a major problem for HC.

Take my house for instance, we have 3 NTL digital boxes (rented house) and two analogue conenctions for PVRs (Tivo and MyTV). This flexibilty simply isn't possible with IPTV over DSL.

I have no doubt Eircom will try to do this at some stage (or alternatively package with Sky or DTT) as NTL becomes more competitive with their triple play service. They planned to do this years ago when they were going to first launch DSL, however the technology just wasn't mature and it still isn't very scalable without FFTH or FTTC.

bk

Marcopolo85 wrote:

I would point out, though, that this is Ireland. How many people are prepared to pay a premium for VoD? It would be interesting to see how many Sky subs actually avail of Sky Box Office? I was talking to someone recently who was in a house where Sky had been installed for a few weeks. They were still renting DVDs from Xtravision!!

Yes, but this is likely to slowly change as people get use to it. Two points which hold it back at the moment.

1) At the moment the films tend to be limited and come out much later after they are released in xtra-vision. This will likely change in time as the content industry gets more use to this new technology and see the advantages to it.

2) Sky isn't true VoD, it is Near VoD, it isn't as convenient as VoD or DVD's as you can't pause it, rewind it etc.

Colleagues of mine have proper VoD in the US with Comcast cable. All new DVD releases are on it and when you rent a movie you can re-watch it multiple times, pause, rewind, fast forward over the 24 hour rental period. It has superb picture and sound quality also. They love it and never rent DVD's anymore. This is because it is done properly there, we will get it like that here eventually.

paulm17781

bk wrote:

1) It is only capable of transmitting Standard Definition TV, it won't be able to do High Definition.

NTL UK were talking of doing HDTV using VDSL. How well would that work?

TomTom

Fungus wrote:

Thier Channnel line up is dire. ( http://www.magnet.ie/television.aspx ). For a digital TV package to only include 20 stations is poor. Me sticks with NTL Digital.

I was told it would be 65 channels, in digital. maybe they just don't have the full line up on the website.

flamegrill

Tomtom - i think the trial only has 10 channels ...

TomTom

The letter says 65, plus video on demand. They called me tonight, they are coming out on Monday evening.

Sponge Bob

paulm17781 wrote:

NTL UK were talking of doing HDTV using VDSL. How well would that work?

VDSL is much faster than ADSL2 and the copper portion of the run in the UK is typically 1km or less , NTL 'rediscovered' their copper pairs recently

The reason they will run VoD over VDSL and not over Cable BB is because there are too many seriously hacked Cable boxes out there in the UK .

bk

paulm17781 wrote:

NTL UK were talking of doing HDTV using VDSL. How well would that work?

Actually they are using ADSL2+ to start with and upgrading to VDSL in the future.

However there are some significant differences compared to regular BB due to a different network setup.

When NTL in the UK install a cable connection, they also install their own telephone twisted pair copper cable. This is completely separate from BT's network. This network is very new and very advanced. NTL UK have a fiber-coax setup. This means that they run fiber to your local node. Most people are within 1km of their node, the coax is better shielded, newer and of a better quality then most of BT's network and there aren't any splitters on it. NTL's network is almost a Fiber To The Curb network I was talking about earlier.

Therefore they will be able to get closer to the theoritical maximum speeds (ADSL2+ = 24Mbit/s, VDSL = 52Mbit/s) then on regular telephone lines, so it should (and does) work very well. I've heard they have gotten 18Mbit/s using ADSL2+ in trials without any problem. This would allow for about 4 SD feeds or 2 HD feeds. Of course they only need those feeds for VoD, not for TV, unlike what Eircom/BT would need.

BTW I don't think the NTL Dublin network has the twisted pair copper wires, so this won't be possible here. However they will be able to use the cable modem standard DOCSIS 3, which should allow for shared sppeds of up to 160Mbit/s.

flamegrill

tomtom

did the install go ahead on monday or what??? :_) is it any good?

Paul

TomTom

Sorry I forgot to get back to ye. They did a survey on monday as they are waiting for Eircom to unbundle. They hope to be able to install next week, thats if eircom don't hold it up.

flamegrill

sure keep us posted

Paul

TomTom

will do, the guy that came to do the survey was sound. They will try to accommodate you as best they can with the fitting inside.

Ronin

you should be able to find the details on their website at

http://www.magnet.ie/trial.htm

P

Sponge Bob

or here

http://www.magnet.ie/details.htm

10 TV channels
(RTE 1 RTE2, TV3, TG4, C4, UTV, Setanta, Smash Hits, Cartoon Network, CNN).

4Mb/256kb mega-speed broadband internet with a 50GB usage allowance.
(Usage over 50GB will be billed at €0.50 per GB)

Unlimited free local and national telephone calls.

TomTom

Ronin wrote:

you should be able to find the details on their website at

http://www.magnet.ie/trial.htm

P

Details there differ slightly from the letter i recieved. The letter states 65 tv channels. but hey, its a trial and its free so i won't complain.

paulm17781

I'm elligialbe. Not sure if I'm bothered though. I'm quite happy with NTL/Blueface. Unless people can give me reasons to be bothered...

TomTom

paulm17781 wrote:

I'm elligialbe. Not sure if I'm bothered though. I'm quite happy with NTL/Blueface. Unless people can give me reasons to be bothered...

It's a free trial....
No obligation