You know your table image is bad when ... (beware HH)

Tourneque

You know your table image is lousy when ..

Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2005/08/13 - 19:02:02 (ET)
Table '11265633 1' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: Hero? (2210 in chips) 
Seat 4: evil villan (1805 in chips) 
Seat 6: scideking (4620 in chips) 
Seat 7: maxover (3845 in chips) 
Seat 8: onecase (1020 in chips) 
Hero?: posts small blind 100
evil villan: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero? [5h Qd]
scideking: folds 
maxover: folds 
onecase: folds 
Hero?: calls 100
evil villan: checks 
*** FLOP *** [Jd 6h 7h]
Hero?: checks 
evil villan: bets 200
Hero?: raises 400 to 600
evil villan: calls 400
*** TURN *** [Jd 6h 7h] [Td]
Hero?: checks 
evil villan: checks 
*** RIVER *** [Jd 6h 7h Td] [2s]
Hero?: bets 800
evil villan: calls 800
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero?: shows [5h Qd] (high card Queen)
evil villan: shows [8s Kh] (high card King)
evil villan collected 3200 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3200 | Rake 0 
Board [Jd 6h 7h Td 2s]
Seat 3: Hero? (small blind) showed [5h Qd] and lost with high card Queen
Seat 4: evil villan (big blind) showed [8s Kh] and won (3200) with high card King
Seat 6: scideking folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: maxover folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: onecase (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Or maybe you should add these kinda guys to your buddy list ...

I had folded a few times to this guy after I bet the flop and he re-raised me. I had only gone to show down with reasonable hands. I had lost a 2.5k pot to with 99 to someone else but that hand been about 5 hands previously and I hadn't done anything loosey-goosey earlier. In fact this was the first time time that I check raised the villan... as I was pretty sure he had rubbish or a weak draw at best.

Did I do something to obvious to give away the fact that I only had junk ?

Hectorjelly

If you bluff check raise then you have to be prepared to follow it up with a bet on the next street. Many opponents will call a raise of their bet without thinking about it, but till then fold the next street. Also on the river you bet is very suspicous, your line makes no sense at all.

Tourneque

Having said that though ... do you really think I needed to bet more than 1/2 the pot on the river to get a guy with no pair to 'lay it down' ?

I think a problem I might have, is that this is the same way I would've played 89 and looking to get paid off with it.

I think the reason this hand stuck out in my mind over the weekend so much was because in the STT immed. beforehand, everybody kept folding to any raise I made. I had no notes on anyone I was playing with and was starting to wonder what kind of datamining was going on. It was uncanny to say the least.

Hectorjelly

Tourneque wrote:

I think a problem I might have, is that this is the same way I would've played 89 and looking to get paid off with it.

Is that line specifically designed to try and get paid off with? Because if it is then you probably shouldnt use it to try and bluff with, for obvious reasons.

Tourneque

Very good point.

And I've been annoyed at myself for making similar moves in other games but at least those times I did feel I made an error.

In this case, I'm not so sure.

I think he would've called a bet on the turn if he was drawing to something and I didn't really like my hand at this point. So I checked behind to see what the river brought.
That check could've meant anything - are you saying it's only right to bet here when bluffing ?

Harmless card dropped on the river. I didn't think my hand was the best but I was pretty sure he didn't have anything so I bet half the pot.

Should I have bet more ?

henbane

Tourneque wrote:

And I've been annoyed at myself for making similar moves in other games but at least those times I did feel I made an error.

In this case, I'm not so sure.

Is the main reason you're not so sure that he showed down K high? Unless this is a play you regularly employ when you find a decent hand, this play is over-complicated and asking for opponents to look you up on the river.

I think he would've called a bet on the turn if he was drawing to something and I didn't really like my hand at this point. So I checked behind to see what the river brought.
That check could've meant anything - are you saying it's only right to bet here when bluffing ?

Leading the turn following a check raise on the flop is standard play. Anything else is going to confuse a bad player and put a good player in to check-call mode. You came up with a fancy play which meant he managed to invest the least possible and still get to showdown. The added strength of a turn bet is that he will have to call a bigger bet again on the river. If he calls the turn, you're fúckered as his stack is so small the river bet won't be threatening but it's better to continue to represent strength if that is your intention.

Harmless card dropped on the river. I didn't think my hand was the best but I was pretty sure he didn't have anything so I bet half the pot.

Should I have bet more ?

The river bet is pointless. If he was prepared to invest 600 on the flop, then 800 on the river isn't a huge stretch. You have to assume he has some reason for calling the flop bet and you've gone from a position of strength to a limbo in between strength and weakness. Confusing your opponents can often backfire.

Tourneque

Yes, that's the main reason.

and I agree it was overly complicated and it backfired. But I was still called down with K high.

Based on the information, do you believe the call was good ?

[/QUOTE]
The river bet is pointless. If he was prepared to invest 600 on the flop, then 800 on the river isn't a huge stretch. You have to assume he has some reason for calling the flop bet and you've gone from a position of strength to a limbo in between strength and weakness.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with that. The 800 bet on the river was basically for all his chips. If he lost he was left with almost nothing and I can't see how you justify that play without a hand.

I don't assume anything. My feel is that he is weak and I play accordingly. You cannot always play your own cards, certainly not at this stage.
When I look at the hand again, my feel is that he just fecked it all in as he wanted to go to bed or something.

Checking the turn was weak. Ignore that. How would you have played th hand ?
....

Hectorjelly

A hand like that makes no sense in isolation, I call on the river with K high sometimes, and I would be tempted to there, but I never would of gotten to the river like that.

The check raise on the flop is pretty bad, bad players hate to fold to check raises and you leave an akward amount behind, he is almost committed to the hand. I think he calls on the turn with any pair at all.

If you wanted to win this pot then just fire a pot bet on the flop. Leave your check raises against bad players for when you have a real hand.