Female Programmers

Martyr

Any female programmers on the boards here?
Just curious, as it seems to be predominantly, a male profession.

Is it a testosterone thing, only males have an obsession with integers?
Or are most females constantly put down, and as a consequence give up on the subject too quickly?

Completely off topic of technical programming, but I have a question here if you would like to answer it.

Do obsessive personalities make better programmers?

Mutant_Fruit

Where i work, there are 5 male programmers, and 2 female. Wouldn't be able to comment further than that But i can say is that the two women are better than some of the guys.

As for obsessive personalities being better.... well, in a general sense, no. Being obsessive is never good. But with regards to programming, it might help give you that extra drive to complete the project.

RicardoSmith

Anywhere I've worked its always been about 40-50% women aswell. I'd say attention to detail is important, and being able to think laterally. I'd say being obsessive is a bad thing in a programmer. You need to be flexible and always open to other suggestions, ideas etc.

djmarkus

The IT department in DIT kevin st/aungier st are all ladies, not totaly on topic but im a wealth of useless information!

wes

Yeah I noticed that too, all I can say is how very very odd.

rsynnott

This is the Steve Rule (in any given group of programmers there are more called Steve (or variations thereof) than females). It's often spookily accurate.

PhantomBeaker

Hmm, in the CS course I'm doing there're 3 girls out of 50 in denominated computer science (as opposed to doing it through general science or arts - in which case the proportions are closer to 35-40% girls).

I remember coming across a bad joke about dating in the IT industry.

For a woman looking to work in the IT industry, she will find that she is outnumbered 9 to 1 by men in the industry. As a result, for any woman wishing to find a husband in the industry, the numbers work in her favour. However, one woman in the industry has been quoted as saying "While the odds may be rather good, the goods are rather odd".

Sorry, just had to share the pain.

The statistic that I find scary is the amount of male-to-female trannies that work in programming! It seems to be the job of choice - if only I knew why.

Take care,
P.B.

rsynnott

PhantomBeaker wrote:

The statistic that I find scary is the amount of male-to-female trannies that work in programming! It seems to be the job of choice - if only I knew why.
.

Never noticed that. There are a lot of lesbians, though, certainly.

SolarNexus

I think the different numbers can equate to the fact that, afaik, men have a further advanced innate ability to think logically -- wheras this is not such the case with women. Without wishing to start a flame war, I think most people can agree that women are on the whole less logical than men (*ducks for cover*)

This only means that men are, by nature, predisposed to such things a programming - it does not mean that women cant or are by their nature 'lesser equals', just I would expect it takes more drive and more effort. There are also the usual stuff like whether women are taking up careers as apposed to children, whether they consider it (unfairly or not) a mans workplace and other such things which go along with every woman in all forms of work. I dont think its a matter of less women can be programmers, just less want to be, for their relative reasons. This is changing though, I can say this specifically as my mentor in college was female, and as far as I know her predecessor was too.

rsynnott

I would have thought that it's more exactly the same social pressures that keep so many women out of the scientific and mathematical fields; "oh, that's not for girls".

SolarNexus

rsynnott wrote:

I would have thought that it's more exactly the same social pressures that keep so many women out of the scientific and mathematical fields; "oh, that's not for girls".

in the nearly 2yrs I was at college, there was one girl -- at the very end, and I heard far too many times people saying things along those lines. but again, when we had tours going through, the feminine tour-goers barely batted an eyelid when visiting the IT department, and when they did it was 99% of the time they would go for the hands on work (as does 99% of everyone) which was IT matenance. So though there may not be many programmers, I wonder just how many IT 'workers' there are...

PhantomBeaker

SolarNexus wrote:

I think the different numbers can equate to the fact that, afaik, men have a further advanced innate ability to think logically -- wheras this is not such the case with women. Without wishing to start a flame war, I think most people can agree that women are on the whole less logical than men (*ducks for cover*)
.

Maybe so, but at the same time, I think that while logical thinking is very important with programming, it's not the only way to approach things. In fact, sometimes a slightly non-logical (but nonetheless reasoned) approach to a problem can yield better results. And if we agree that women are not necessarily as logical thinkers as men, then I'd say that sometimes they can hit on solutions to problems that aren't immediately obvious to men.

That said, there are always exceptions.

P.B.

PhantomBeaker

rsynnott wrote:

Never noticed that. There are a lot of lesbians, though, certainly.

Well, thing is, it's among younger mtfs (under 40), and how many of those do you see in Ireland? But through friends in the UK and the like, I do find a scary amount are involved in the IT sector (i.e. have CS degrees and a rather obsessive/maniacal/dictatorial/fascist love of some form of unix - no pun intended, I think)

Take care,
P.B.

rsynnott

PhantomBeaker wrote:

rather obsessive/maniacal/dictatorial/fascist love of some form of unix - no pun intended, I think)

Nothing wrong with that!

EDIT: Hmm, now I think of it, most gay programmers I know (tho not myself) are Microsofties. Interesting. Possibly the lesbians get VMS, or something.

Syth

I think part of the reason there are a lot of men in computer science is because most of the people who like taking stuff apart, who are good at maths, have a interest in mechanical/mathematical game/puzzles are mostly men. I think evolution played a part in this. I find the "women are told it's uncool for women to be interested in maths/computers" to be very weak, since many groups think it's 'uncool' for anyone (male or female) to be interested in maths/computers!

As for trannies I suspect that due to the rarity and (in some cases) social disapproval of transexuality, means many would meet over the internet, and hence there would be a high level of computer literacy. That's my theory.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~gendergap/working.html
Some papers on studies on women in computer science. A interesting read, especially the first one on the motivation of computer science students.

Talliesin

In the very old days computer programming was considered to be women's work.

fatherdougalmag

COBOL was created by Admiral Grace Hopper.

democrates

Wikipedia rules, another link for Grace Hopper
It's a bit close to 'grasshopper', I wonder was she the subject of cruel chides as a child? Amazing woman.

I like the explanation given for the preponderence of geeks in IT by Bob Cringely in his series "Triumph of the Nerds ". He says that it's easier for guys to work on problems with logical solutions, as opposed to trying to navigate the perplexities of feminine temperament.

Regardless of sex or sexual orientation, it is pleasing to see your code working, for people with a need for achievement that may be an attraction of the field.

From your own observations would anyone agree that women tend to be more diligent in carring out their jobs without question more so than men who question authority and wish to do things their own way?

rsynnott

democrates wrote:

From your own observations would anyone agree that women tend to be more diligent in carring out their jobs without question more so than men who question authority and wish to do things their own way?

No. I don't think that's the case at all.

By the way, for the ultimate in female programmers, see Verity Stob.

L1011

The operating system I use was coded by "36 guys and one lesbian" according to a blog entry one of the staff members at the company wrote shortly before they went under... however, the 'womans touch' is extremely noticable in the section she mainly worked on - the printing subsystem went from unusably poor before she started on it to being extremely good afterwards.

And having worked with a female programmer before - they're usually extremely good; if extremely rare. Pity really, but for some reason I think programming is seen as a stereotypically male occupation, when theres absolutely no reason it should be.

Dizzyblabla

I did programming in college, in my class there was 40 of us, 5 females, by 4th year only 1 of the females had dropped out, whereas close to 20 of the guys did, although I hated programming, I managed projects in college, but didn't want to persue it. I do know of a few who did get into it and are doing quite well though!

jmcc

rsynnott wrote:

I would have thought that it's more exactly the same social pressures that keep so many women out of the scientific and mathematical fields; "oh, that's not for girls".

If you think that the ratios are bad in CS, you should look at electronic engineering. Though it is a biological fact of life that the male brain is wired for the kind of logical / visio-spatial / mathematical abilities required for engineering. With CS such delineations are not as well defined as good linguistic abilities are required and that favours the female brain. Scientific and mathematical fields have lost their social stigma. I think it may have something to do with the high number of people with arts degrees who end up drawing the dole while the geeks inherited the Earth during the dot.bomb days.

Then there are the people who think that writing HTML is programming. I really am not sure about them.

Regards...jmcc

rsynnott

jmcc wrote:

If you think that the ratios are bad in CS, you should look at electronic engineering. Though it is a biological fact of life that the male brain is wired for the kind of logical / visio-spatial / mathematical abilities required for engineering

I've always been cautious of this claim. Do you have hard evidence?

BC

djmarkus wrote:

The IT department in DIT kevin st/aungier st are all ladies, not totaly on topic but im a wealth of useless information!

I can guarantee thats not true! Its pretty much 50:50.

When i was in college there were definately more males than females but since i've started working I find it depends on the company. When i worked in the private sector there were definately more male programmers than women. The IS/IT departments as a whole were generally 50:50 but the majority of men were sys admins/programmers and the majority of women were in testing/Business Analysis. I'm in the public sector now and its pretty much 50:50 in all areas.

I think that less women prefer programming long term. I've been a programmer for about 5 or 6 years and over the past year i've started moving away from the programming towards analysis/design etc. Most of of female friends from college are the same. On the other hand, most of my male friends from college are still very much at the hands on technical level and have no intention of moving.

Talliesin

jmcc wrote:

Though it is a biological fact of life that the male brain is wired for the kind of logical / visio-spatial / mathematical abilities required for engineering. With CS such delineations are not as well defined as good linguistic abilities are required and that favours the female brain.

What, Engineers are from Mars, Linguists are from Venus? :rolleyes:

stevenmu

On my course the numbers were roughly 60% male, 40% female. I noticed that the girls tended to be happier with the more academic bits, i.e. they liked to be able to read and learn material and regurgitate it in some form in exams. Guys tended to be happier with the bits where you had to problem solve or create something from scratch. I've seen this in the workplace too, the girls tend to be happier dealing with things they already no the answer to, or are pretty familiar with, but when they come across something new they tend to come looking for help. When guys come across something new they tend to start picking it apart and trying to figure it out themselves.

I personally think that it's the new stuff that makes programming fun, I love trying to do something I've never done before and making it work, or fixing some weird problem I've never seen before. In general I don't think girls really see the fun in that which is why they may not see programming as a good choice for them.

rsynnott wrote:

This is the Steve Rule (in any given group of programmers there are more called Steve (or variations thereof) than females). It's often spookily accurate.

This is scarily true, in one IT department I worked in there was 4 Steves, and 3 girls (out of 11 people !)

Calina

Talliesin wrote:

What, Engineers are from Mars, Linguists are from Venus? :rolleyes:

He's reading too much slashdot - ignore him. My experience of programmers is that their gender is of secondary importance when they're coding. It's their attitude to their job is key.

oh btw admitting to being a female assembler programmer.

Calina

stevenmu wrote:

This is scarily true, in one IT department I worked in there was 4 Steves, and 3 girls (out of 11 people !)

Not where I work: my department out of six, no Steves and four women.

KlodaX

I really enjoy programming ... used to love getting stuck into a piece of code and debugging it for ages. I'm female. Saying that I'm stuck as a technician now and I'm the only female out of a team of 14.

I noticed that the girls tended to be happier with the more academic bits, i.e. they liked to be able to read and learn material and regurgitate it in some form in exams. Guys tended to be happier with the bits where you had to problem solve or create something from scratch. I've seen this in the workplace too, the girls tend to be happier dealing with things they already no the answer to, or are pretty familiar with, but when they come across something new they tend to come looking for help. When guys come across something new they tend to start picking it apart and trying to figure it out themselves.

I think that is because females have the tendancy not to try/do something unless they know for certain that they can do it. Men tend to have more confidence in their abilities/knowledge when it comes to something technicial. I know so many lads that assume because they are male they can fix anything that has a screw or circuit board. Where as the female unless she has read the manual inside and back to front wont touch it.

*edit* Same applying to programming. I know that is a mayjor stero type on my behalf .... but everyone else appears to be doing so! You know what I mean though ... I don't mean to generalise!

scojones

I reckon this thread is just a way for the OP to grab a coder chick for fun and profit

Anyway... Where I work, there is 127 people, 10 of which are female. It's kind of scary to be honest.

Hobbes

whats the quote again?

"Your Trinity? I thought you were a guy?"
Most guys do."

ravenhead

It's the opposite where I'm working - out of a department of 10 programmers there's only 1 guy! It's such a pain in the A@SE - No craic really at all, I enjoy working with guys, much more of a laugh.

stevenmu

KlodaX wrote:

I know so many lads that assume because they are male they can fix anything that has a screw or circuit board. Where as the female unless she has read the manual inside and back to front wont touch it.

That sounds like me, altough I don't assume I can fix it cos I'm male, I just assume it cos usually I can (or else I have enough fun destroying it more that I don't really care about it not working anymore )

KlodaX wrote:

*edit* Same applying to programming. I know that is a mayjor stero type on my behalf .... but everyone else appears to be doing so! You know what I mean though ... I don't mean to generalise!

I think it's a pretty fair stereotype, altough there's obviously going to be loads of exceptions on both sides. It's probably closely related to the 'asking for directions when lost' stereotype, I'm firmly in the 'I'm not lost, I'm just taking the scenic route !' camp.

Hobbes

Female programmers are few and far between but everyone of those that I have met are exceptional in their field. I suspect there is a slight employment bias over guys with similar skill sets.

jmcc

Talliesin wrote:

What, Engineers are from Mars, Linguists are from Venus? :rolleyes:

Well there is that perception that people who do electronics are from another planet entirely. The specifically male attributes are more likely to be found in extreme courses like electronic engineering because design work brings together the attributes of logic (designing circuitry) / visio-spatial ability (designing printed circuit boards manually) and mathematics (circuit design again). Computer Science by comparison is far more balanced.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Calina wrote:

He's reading too much slashdot - ignore him. My experience of programmers is that their gender is of secondary importance when they're coding. It's their attitude to their job is key.

Strangely I don't read Slashdot and the comments were about engineering rather than computer science. Ignoring reality will not make it go away. Computer science is not engineering.

Regards...jmcc

Capt'n Midnight

Talliesin wrote:

In the very old days computer programming was considered to be women's work.

Ada Byron, Lady Lovelace (1815-1852)

saml1

I'm a female programmer/developer. I'm good at what I do and better than a lot of males in the field (not being bigheaded,just telling it like it is).
Women make good developers; they are diligent and patient. However, its not a field that attracts women. It is true that it takes a logical mind, something that man tend to be better at. But when a woman has logical traits, it doesn't mean shes any better or worse than a guy at programming.
Actually a lot of girls I've gone to college with have branched away from programming. Its not the most interesting in the grand scheme of things. but I love it and relish a good development challenge. I was the only girl in my last 2 dev teams. Bit of a pity cos the girls I've worked with have been top notch.
I think theres also (naturally i suppose to some extent) that there is often a bit of suspicion towards girls in a male dominated environment. Not being paranoid, bit its there to a small extent.
I'd be glad to see more girls in development cos they're well able for it.
go on the girls
and theres more to life than slashdot
(nerrrrrds!!)

Prior Of Taize

SolarNexus wrote:

it mean that women are by their nature 'lesser equals'

i agree

Civilian_Target

I don't believe that mathematical brain stuff for a second - I think it's just a social thing that prevents girls from becoming programmers.

In college I found that CS had a M:F ratio of 10:1 or worse, in Physics it was about 5:1, but it was almost 1:1 in Maths, which sometimes made it hard to think logically

saml1

biggest load of ****e i've ever heard.
women are perfectly equal when it comes to all things techy, its only a social thing that means they're not encouraged to follow though on it.

men are only worried cos they're days of dominance in the field are numbered.
its a fear thing that makes then hang onto some irrational belief that they are better at stuff like that. utter ****e. women are no better or worse programmers/scientists. grow up lads and show some respect and appreciation for your fellow human beings.

To quote Abigail Adams, a former US first lady,
"..why should your sex wish for such a disparity in those whom they one day intend for companions and associates. Pardon me, sir, if I cannot help sometimes suspecting that this neglect arises in some measure from an ungenerous jealousy of rivals.."

Prior Of Taize wrote:

i agree

Martyr

men are only worried cos they're days of dominance in the field are numbered.

Don't women mainly computer program as a career?
I don't know any women programmers who do it for fun..but i could be wrong.

Look at the majority of crackers on this site below, no women..at all.

http://www.crackmes.de/

I'm not saying women wouldn't make good crackers, but the fact that there is no interest from females in this area (atleast none that i know of) out of the few thousand members on that site, doesn't square up with your quote.

I'm not aware of any social-entities that encourage cracking software, to either male or female, but it is male dominated, at the moment of course

rsynnott

Average Joe wrote:

Don't women mainly computer program as a career?
I don't know any women programmers who do it for fun..but i could be wrong.

Look at the majority of crackers on this site below, no women..at all.

http://www.crackmes.de/

I think women are less likely to subscribe to such a ridiculous "1337 HAX0R" site. I know lots of women who program for fun, though.

scojones

saml1 wrote:

men are only worried cos they're days of dominance in the field are numbered.

Way to generalise there missy. Look, comparing women to men is a pretty lame way to bring this thread down. Men are more intelligent, Women are more intelligent. Yadda Yadda Yadda. It's the individual that counts not their bloody gender.

Quit being so bloody sexist and grow up.

Martyr

I think women are less likely to subscribe to such a ridiculous "1337 HAX0R" site. I know lots of women who program for fun, though.

I would agree that men are more competitive and so strive to find better ways to destroy each other..in any way possible ;-) including such talk as "DMZ" and "CyberWarfare", "nukers"..et cetera
Then we have "blackhats" and "whitehats"..if anyone was "1337 HAX0R" it is defenitely fools who give themselves ridiculous names like that.

But I don't look at the crackmes as ridiculous at all.
Alot of the work there is quite interesting, and would probably benefit those of you who write software with protection mechanisms that keep being broken by crackers, but thats another topic.

Many of the subscribers enjoy the challenges from other crackers..they don't call themselves "1337 HAX0R" or anything, i'd say alot them are quite talented programmers.

Solving the crackmes is just a challenge.

Might seem childish, but then alot of areas in programming are.