Another two buy-ins dropped with K K

jimbling

I just can't seem to make money with KK. Playing at a very loose table last night, all-in pre-flop twice with KK.

first hand was for $47, one other player involved. He flips over j j and flops a j.

About 5 hands later I get KK again.... and this time I manage to get two players all in -
lol... this time im up against an AJs and a 44 (don't ask me what they were thinking).

guess what flop comes down... I mean unreal.

flop: J J 4

I got beaten by both of them.


Anyway, my point is, I just don't make enough money with these sort of hands.... or is this standard... I automatically think that AA / KK should be my biggest earners
my pokertracker stats for AA KK QQ JJ

based on 13262 hands.

AA: 54times : 90%win : $222 profit
KK: 62times : 74%win : $73 profit
QQ: 73times : 83%win : $443 profit
JJ: 54times : 75%win : $118 profit

I mean ATs and 66 are bigger earners than KK for me.

I can only assume that my lack of profits showing for AA and KK must be due to something.... maybe I just don't let go of them enough or something. I know I have made bad decisions when playing them alright.

But what this has led to is that, when I flop K K... I'm worried. When I flop QQ I'm confident..... the ladies have always loved me though


I have studied my play, and I found that I have done quite a few fishy things with these hands, not been able to let them go etc... and this is causing me problems...

Am I alone here, do other people have problems with the top pairs.... and how do you get past it.... is it just experience on letting them go post-flop?

NickyOD

13,000 ahnds just isn't nearly enough. Things will even out trust me. You were just unlucky.

The pokertracker court will eventually prove this.

That is all.

roryc

yeh kings can be misleading. your always fcuked if an ace hits on the flop

I still prefer them over aces online though

DapperGent

If only stupidity was a banning offence.

NickyOD

I prefer getting dealt KQ of hearts than any pair of aces. They don't make me as much money but it's a mighdy purdy hand. yuck yuck!

roryc

call it stupidity if you want, but I win on aces about 30/40% of the time and i win on kings about 90% of the time (online)

this has led me to prefer seeing kings over aces ONLINE.

In a live game obviously i prefer the bullets

NickyOD

roryc wrote:

call it stupidity if you want, but I win on aces about 30/40% of the time and i win on kings about 90% of the time (online)

this has led me to prefer seeing kings over aces ONLINE.

In a live game obviously i prefer the bullets

Oh god. Have you ever heard the expression. "When you're in a hole, stop digging?"

roryc

What hole??

(QUOTE=Dappergent)If he actually wanted to get some advice he would have posted it somewhere else. He just wants sympathy and someone to tell him that the other guy played it wrong just like half the fúcking posts on this board.

In fact this board has gone to total shít. The soccer board has more intelligent debate and worthy threads in it. We should never have let the fúcking riff-raff in.(/QUOTE)


This is who's slagging me........

mewso

Lets concentrate on the question at hand. It rarely serves any purpose to answer something by hitting back. Can you see the slight problem with preferring KK to AA under any circumstances? If you can we're getting somewhere.

gdez

based on 13262 hands.

AA: 54times : 90%win : $222 profit
KK: 62times : 74%win : $73 profit
QQ: 73times : 83%win : $443 profit
JJ: 54times : 75%win : $118 profit

Without a doubt u had 2 bad beats there, but as far as the 2nd one is concerned your percentage of winning the hand with KK will drop considerably when facing 2 players.
But as far as i can see those percentages above are quite good, and certainly nothing to be worried about.
I'd be delighted with them to be honest.
Profit will always vary regarding your chip stack & your opponents chip stack so i again i wouldn't worry about that either.

jimbling

ya... and I see where your coming from. Bad beats they were, but that was only those two hands.

The stats show that i have a much better success rate (profit rather than win rate) with QQ. I believe there is a good reason for this. And thats because I find it much easier to lay down.

Its not that I have won more money with QQ, but I have not lost as much with QQ... and money not lost is money won... as the saying goes.

I am an okay poker player.. but I can feel myself slipping into fish zone quite often.....

There was a few hands where I dumped $40/50 in one hand due to my inability to drop the AA / KK when it should have been obvious to dump. And I reckon if I took these errors out of it, then the profits for both would be up with QQ.

This is a leak in my game, and am trying to plug it... I find that by posting about it, it gets me thinking more about it.. which will hopefully stop me making these errors in the heat of battle

Waylander

In both the above hands it looks like you were all in preflop. You never gave yourself a chance to lay them down. That is an acceptable tactic, but if there is a pair on the flop you could be in trouble, you have to accept that is a result of the all in strategy.

jimbling

Waylander wrote:

In both the above hands it looks like you were all in preflop. You never gave yourself a chance to lay them down. That is an acceptable tactic, but if there is a pair on the flop you could be in trouble, you have to accept that is a result of the all in strategy.

yes I do accept it alright.. it just seems to happen to me more with KK than any other hand. But that is beside the point... I gave bad examples for what my question was... i started the post as another bad beat with K K, but finished asking about the ability to let go of good cards.... post-flop.

lost $60 in a hand the other day, K K against a flop of 5 7 9. It was ridiculously fishy on my part, plainly obvious the other guy had made a hand... and yet I coudn't let go... he flipped over 7 7.

But my logic did not count the low-mid pair call of a $3 raise as he was a tight player... and I didnt allow myself to change that view... because it was K K - and i should always win with K K

Hectorjelly

I love aces, and I love kings too. I have a hunch that its more profitable (for me anyway) to get Kings on the button rather than Aces under the gun. Id love to have pokertracker stats to see if thats right or Im imagining it. The better position means you can thow them away having invested less when your beaten, and your hand is also a lot less clearly defined to the other players.

NickyOD

Through 40,000 hands at mostly NL 6 handed Cash tables.

AA 183 times. = $2.006.47
KK 216 times = $1438.85
QQ 174 times = $322.90
JJ 173 times = $970.93

Obviously I'm overplaying Queens.

Hector......

Aces UTG: 16 times = $424.58
Kings on the Button 48 times = $327.63

The way you play them obvious makes an enormous difference.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Through 40,000 hands at mostly NL 6 handed Cash tables.

AA 183 times. = $2.006.47
KK 216 times = $1438.85


Aces UTG: 16 times = $424.58
Kings on the Button 48 times = $327.63

The way you play them obvious makes an enormous difference.

Your average for AA based on 183 hands is just under $11. Your average for KK is $6. UTG your average for aces utg is $26, but on the button your average for KK is $6. Do you prefer playing out of position?

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Your average for AA based on 183 hands is just under $11. Your average for KK is $6. UTG your average for aces utg is $26, but on the button your average for KK is $6. Do you prefer playing out of position?

I think that has more to do with the fact that I'll get more action when I open UTG than when I button raise or reraise in good position.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

I think that has more to do with the fact that I'll get more action when I open UTG than when I button raise or reraise in good position.

I would of assumed the opposite.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would of assumed the opposite.

So would I. I was surprised when you pointed it out to me but perhaps this is still too small a smaple of hands. The thing about the level I'm playing at is that players don't really have any respect for preflop raises regardless of position.

UTG is my most profitable position with both aces and kings because I'm more likely to get a caller.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

So would I. I was surprised when you pointed it out to me but perhaps this is still too small a smaple of hands. The thing about the level I'm playing at is that players don't really have any respect for preflop raises regardless of position.

UTG is my most profitable position with both aces and kings because I'm more likely to get a caller.

Allthough the logic of that sounds tempting, its not correct. If it you were comparing raising on the button with no limpers and raising utg then it would be.

People are more likely to call a raise once they have limped means you will get called by a greater range of hands if you raise on the button.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Allthough the logic of that sounds tempting, its not correct. If it you were comparing raising on the button with no limpers and raising utg then it would be.

People are more likely to call a raise once they have limped means you will get called by a greater range of hands if you raise on the button.

You'd actually be surprised how many players limp fold on the party network. I probably still haven't played enough hands to find out yet.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

You'd actually be surprised how many players limp fold on the party network. I probably still haven't played enough hands to find out yet.

Limp fold is the most beautfull of preflop actions

jimbling

lol........lost another all-in manouver with KK last night.... another full buy in down. Ran into the rockets..... i know a poker player shouldn't believe in good/bad luck.... but sometimes its hard not to....

Culchie

jimbling wrote:

lol........lost another all-in manouver with KK last night.... another full buy in down. Ran into the rockets..... i know a poker player shouldn't believe in good/bad luck.... but sometimes its hard not to....

According to Zen and the Art of Poker ..... there is absolutely such a thing as luck.
It would suggest that when everything is running against you, that you simply get up and leave it for a while.

roryc

yeh i definitely think there is luck. I have good runs and bad runs. I never have a really good night, then a really bad night straight after it. My luck comes in..... 'installments'!

Dont have a lucky charm yet though

NickyOD

roryc wrote:

Dont have a lucky charm yet though

You should get the golden horseshoe implant surgery. It's well worth it.

mewso

Interesting though. what do you consider luck to be. Is it the mathematical improbability of hitting your 2 outer or do you think some magical luck changed the cards to what they were originally going to be?

NickyOD

musician wrote:

Interesting though. what do you consider luck to be. Is it the mathematical improbability of hitting your 2 outer or do you think some magical luck changed the cards to what they were originally going to be?

I think its more to do with positive thinking. It's not very logical mathematically but I always believe the more confident I am the more the cards will land my way. That of course just means I play them better when I'm confident but it often feels like when you are lacking confidence that you just can't hit a flop and can't win a race. Last night in the $5+R on Stars. I have a monster Stack. Top 10 with 250 players left. I'm in this situation a lot now on stars. I accumulate a lot of chips early but I'm a horrible horrible tall stack player. (note positive thinking) Either that or I'm just on a bad run. I go card dead for an hour and fall back down the field and I say to myself. "Same old ****ing story, I will never have big score in a tourney" I get dealt Kings on the button. UTG moves all and and we have the same in chips. I say to a friend who's watching and chatting on MSN "Watch my kings get cracked" I'm up against AQ. Flop xTK. Turn a blank. Jack on the river. Ugh! It almost feels like I made it happen with my negative thinking.

roryc

same happened me last night. Jacks against tens. I actually got up out of my chair because I was so convinced I was gonna lose. I was so sure!

Of course the 10 hit and i wasn't even surprised. It was the only hand of the night that I was totally negative about and lo and behold it was my worst beat of the night + it knocked me out of the tourney.

go figure.......