Rugby Rules: HELP

righthand

I played a bit decades ago. It was in the Barry McGann (with/against), Seamus Dennison (with), Becker (with), era. Rules have changed some since. Watching 'Super 12s' some months ago and 2 incidents in the same match perplexed me.

1. Centre got a bad pass but caught it perfectly in both hands. Slightly off balance, he used the ball to steady himself. It was judged a 'knock on' although he had control of the ball at all times. If he was across the line, it would have been a perfect touch down. Is that a knock on?

2. An attempted touch down and a long delay with the video ref. It was reasonably clear that it was not a try. Eventually the ref indicated a 22 drop out. Seconds delay before camera switches to other half of field. One previous defender is tearing down the field followed yards behind by one previous attacker both after the ball. A try is obvious. Ref blows the whistle. A second 22 drop out. No one complains!

Snickers Man

If I had the slightest idea what you were trying to say, I would attempt to help you out (always like helping out people who are even older than me ) but I'm afraid I lost you after the first paragraph.

Vinnie Becker. Now there was a scandalously wasted talent. Fastest thing ever with red hair. Only gave him two caps during which he was passed the ball once.

If I remember rightly.

But I was only a kid at the time.

righthand

Snickers Man wrote:

If I had the slightest idea what you were trying to say, I would attempt to help you out (always like helping out people who are even older than me ) but I am afraid I lost you after the first paragraph.

For 1. I suppose I'm looking for the rule on 'knock-on' and an interpretation in this case. Someone may know.

Snickers Man /Vinnie Becker wrote:

Now there was a scandalously wasted talent. Fastest thing ever with red hair. Only gave him two caps during which he was passed the ball once. If I remember rightly. But I was only a kid at the time.

Vinnie played out-half or us in my fifth year at school. I believe it wasn't until 3rd term and athletics that we knew how fast he was. At scrum half he was inclined to stand, hands on hip watching play. He nearly single handily lost us a Cup match against PBS Cork. Giving away stones in the scrum, we pushed them down the field only to find Vinnie caught in possession. Of course we were up against Barry McGann, who was worth two on any team. He went on to play regularly for Ireland.

Vinnie's red hair was proof of Irish temper. He played on the wing for Ireland, so I don't remember him passing the ball at all. Seamus Dennison in the centre was the sweetest of them all. The lightest that I ever saw on a rugby team but the most fearless successful tackler, including against the All Blacks in that famous win.

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el lupo

As regard your first question, you can check here

Knock On Rules

Thats the IRB rules for a knock on. In the case in point, I guess it was ruled a knock on as the player wasnt in full control of the ball (thats an ammendment brought to the rule in the past 3/4 years).

regarding your second question, I wont even try to answer it as I honestly don't understand it!

Blub2k4

righthand wrote:

I played a bit decades ago. It was in the Barry McGann (with/against), Seamus Dennison (with), Becker (with), era. Rules have changed some since. Watching 'Super 12s' some months ago and 2 incidents in the same match perplexed me.

1. Centre got a bad pass but caught it perfectly in both hands. Slightly off balance, he used the ball to steady himself. It was judged a 'knock on' although he had control of the ball at all times. If he was across the line, it would have been a perfect touch down. Is that a knock on?

2. An attempted touch down and a long delay with the video ref. It was reasonably clear that it was not a try. Eventually the ref indicated a 22 drop out. Seconds delay before camera switches to other half of field. One previous defender is tearing down the field followed yards behind by one previous attacker both after the ball. A try is obvious. Ref blows the whistle. A second 22 drop out. No one complains!

1/How did he use the ball to steady himself exactly? Can you explain that a little better, did he fall and use the ball to fend off the ground? Did the ball leave his hands at any point?

2/This sounds like someone made an attempt to pull a fast 22 drop-out and was pulled back possibly because members of both teams were not in place either side of the 22, as it was both teams in contravention of rules he would be pulled back to take it slowly, again. I think this one is correct, you saw it so may have a better idea if my assessment is correct.

Downtime

Firstly, they are laws and not rules

righthand wrote:

1. Centre got a bad pass but caught it perfectly in both hands. Slightly off balance, he used the ball to steady himself. It was judged a 'knock on' although he had control of the ball at all times. If he was across the line, it would have been a perfect touch down. Is that a knock on?

Not a knock on - but from the referees view point it may have looked like one. If he had corssed the line and lost control of the ball after touching down (which is what might have happened on the field) then yes it would be a try.

2. An attempted touch down and a long delay with the video ref. It was reasonably clear that it was not a try. Eventually the ref indicated a 22 drop out. Seconds delay before camera switches to other half of field. One previous defender is tearing down the field followed yards behind by one previous attacker both after the ball. A try is obvious. Ref blows the whistle. A second 22 drop out. No one complains!

Maybe the referee was unhappy with the way it was taken - he is perfectly entitled to pull it back and ask for it to be taken again.

Snickers Man

righthand wrote:

Vinnie's red hair was proof of Irish temper. He played on the wing for Ireland, so I don't remember him passing the ball at all.

What I meant was that his team mates only ever passed the ball to him once. That I remember.

It was such a shame because he had blinding pace. I remember him scoring several times for Lansdowne and Leinster by getting the ball in his own 25 (that's what it was called back then) and literally running around the defence beating them with sheer blistering speed. For people of a more recent vintage: think Rory Underwood with red hair and freckles.

I'm also sure I saw him competing for Ireland in a sprint relay at Belfield.

His great moment was in the first World rugby sevens in Murrayfield, part of Scotland's centenary celebrations in the early 1970s. Ireland got to the final and were seconds away from victory when a stray pass got intercepted and the English speed merchant Kieth Fielding ran the length of the pitch to score.

But Becker had been brilliant up to then. So had Mike Gibson. Actually, I think Dennison might have played in that as well. WE beat New Zealand if I remember rightly. Any recollection?

Seamus Dennison in the centre was the sweetest of them all. The lightest that I ever saw on a rugby team but the most fearless successful tackler, including against the All Blacks in that famous win.

.

Yeah but what else could he do?

I've got the video, seen the tackle, been to 'Alone it Stands.' I also remember him playing.

I'm sorry. I have the Leinster man's prejudice based on years of watching Irish teams.

Thou shalt not ever, ever, ever under any circumstances ever allow on to the Irish team a Munster player who wears a number greater than 10 on his back.

And for numbers nine and ten, only if there really is nobody else.

Numbers one to eight: pack 'em out with Limerick men by all means.

But name me one back from Munster who ever had a talent other than kicking or tackling.

There isn't any. And never was.

Barry McGann: great tactical kicker but couldn't pass water
Phil Danaher: would tackle an ox and, er, that's it
Barry Bresnihan: ditto
Jerry Walsh: ditto
Seamus Denisson: ditto
Tom Kiernan: could catch and kick like fullbacks had to do up to the 1960s. Law changes made him redundant. Should have retired long before he did.
Mike Kiernan: great pace in his youth but very quickly assumed McGann-like portliness and was kept on only for his place kicking. Bit like his uncle.


I'm sorry. I've strayed a little off topic but mention of Becker brought back some memories. The young people of today are likely to say: 'Vinny who?' Nice to come across somebody else who remembers him.

righthand

Thanks first to el lupo for the rules/laws. Most helpful and he didn't breach the rule.

Blub2k4 wrote:

1/How did he use the ball to steady himself exactly? Can you explain that a little better, did he fall and use the ball to fend off the ground? Did the ball leave his hands at any point?

Downtime got it in one. Again, it looked like the perfect touchdown - the old style without the dramatics - except it was in midfield. It looked like SHOWBOATING and a bit too good to be true. It looked fantastic. He used the manoeuvre to change direction. It was that dark, hughley strong Aussie back, who's name I cannot remember. The ball never went forward nor out of his hands.

Blue2k4 wrote:

2/This sounds like someone made an attempt to pull a fast 22 drop-out and was pulled back possibly because members of both teams were not in place either side of the 22, as it was both teams in contravention of rules he would be pulled back to take it slowly, again. I think this one is correct, you saw it so may have a better idea if my assessment is correct.

Yes, it was definitely an attempt at a fast drop-out, but there's nothing wrong with that. As it had been a 'near' try against team A, they were all behind the 22. Maybe not all team B's players were on the other side of the 22, but that doesn't matter. The camera was on the ref and 2nd official down in the corner. He indicated a 22 drop-out. Slight delay and the camera switched. Only two players were moving. A team A player is being chased by a heavy team B player with the ball about 15 meters from the line. The ref blew the whistle and indicated a new 22 dropout.

Downtime wrote:

Maybe the referee was unhappy with the way it was taken - he is perfectly entitled to pull it back and ask for it to be taken again.

He could only be unhappy with the speed with which it was taken and cost team A a try. How is he perfectly entitled to pull it back and ask for it to be taken again?

What was most remarkable wasn't that both incidents happened in the same game. More remarkable was that no one demurred. All accepted both decisions straight off. I noticed during the Lions tour how the Northern players were in trouble with the 'homegrown' officials on the issue of 'lip' to the ref. It was my impression of 'us' crying wolf too often. A bad taste left over from a certain English captain proceeding us 'down under'. Any ideas on this?

.

Downtime

righthand wrote:

How is he perfectly entitled to pull it back and ask for it to be taken again?

The referee is sole judge of the law - if he is unhappy, didn't see it being taken, was not happy where it was taken from, not happy when it was taken etc etc he is perfectly entitled to order a re-take.

Blub2k4

righthand wrote:

Yes, it was definitely an attempt at a fast drop-out, but there's nothing wrong with that. As it had been a 'near' try against team A, they were all behind the 22. Maybe not all team B's players were on the other side of the 22, but that doesn't matter. The camera was on the ref and 2nd official down in the corner. He indicated a 22 drop-out. Slight delay and the camera switched. Only two players were moving. A team A player is being chased by a heavy team B player with the ball about 15 meters from the line. The ref blew the whistle and indicated a new 22 dropout.
He could only be unhappy with the speed with which it was taken and cost team A a try. How is he perfectly entitled to pull it back and ask for it to be taken again?

He may not have been happy that all were ready or that officials were ready, this happened all the time when I used to play and no one bats an eyelid. There was always the danger then taking a fast one that the ref will pull it if he is not happy about anything.

righthand

Snickers Man wrote:

Vinnie Becker. Now there was a scandalously wasted talent. Fastest thing ever with red hair. Only gave him two caps during which he was passed the ball once. If I remember rightly.

Yes you remember rightly. I misread the passing bit.

Do you remember a Munster player named Tony Ward? His problem was another ginger haired Leinster player.

God, you bring me back. Did you ever see the forgotten art of a Munster foot rush - Kamikaze rugby, legal stamping. We practiced that once a week. I think it was more to test your courage and not your ability.

.

righthand

Blub2k4 wrote:

He may not have been happy that all were ready or that officials were ready, this happened all the time when I used to play and no one bats an eyelid. There was always the danger then taking a fast one that the ref will pull it if he is not happy about anything.

I agree. Maybe the solution is for the ref not to whistle until he is in position first back on the 22. Otherwise he is always going to be out of position across the try line. Seems a simple solution. After incident one then this in the same game, I went from a interested neutral to wondering about the ref's sanity.

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Snickers Man

righthand wrote:

Yes you remember rightly. I misread the passing bit.

Do you remember a Munster player named Tony Ward? His problem was another ginger haired Leinster player.

Leinster reject.

A St Mary's College boy.

If Wardie's a Munster man I'm a banana.

righthand

Snickers Man wrote:

Leinster reject. A St Mary's College boy. If Wardie's a Munster man I'm a banana.

See, everyone wants to be a Munster man these days and I didn't even know the colour of your skin. Do you peel easily? Which rule are we on now! Ward played for Munster and kicked them to victory in that All Black win, with a little help from his friends. Didn't he also play soccer for Limerick! I was born and raised in Leinster, learnt to play in Munster including caps, and returned to play in Leinster. I knew I was in the wrong province years later when our hooker, team captain, selector etc said to the big second row

Lansdown player wrote:

"If you do that again, then I'll tell the Ref".

Apparently he was punched twice in the face while defenceless in the scrum. I'd never heard of telling the ref. I don't know about now but then the prop was meant to sorted that out. I'd never ever hit anyone before who didn't see or expect a punch. I was more annoyed with our cry baby 'leader' but leveled the foot taller second row. Seemingly there was 'history' between the two. Now guess which colour jersey is it that my kids support.

Before the All Ireland League you would have the impression that rugby wasn't played outside the Pale. It was such a shock to the system when Munster teams and Limerick teams in particular, won all around them. This was one Leinster resident that cheered. Mort importantly it corrected the now obvious Irish selection biases.

Snickers Man

righthand wrote:

See, everyone wants to be a Munster man these days

Include me out!!!!

righthand wrote:

Now guess which colour jersey is it that my kids support.

The one with the blood on it?
Or the clean one?

Hmm.

righthand wrote:

Before the All Ireland League you would have the impression that rugby wasn't played outside the Pale. It was such a shock to the system when Munster teams and Limerick teams in particular, won all around them. This was one Leinster resident that cheered. Mort importantly it corrected the now obvious Irish selection biases.

You mean like the unwritten law that no Irish team could ever take the field without at least one Cork Constitution player? I'm glad that one went. Mind you, some of them deserved their places.

Don't get me wrong. I have huge respect for Munster rugby and I do envy the fanst their atmosphere which the staider Leinster fans can never seem to emulate. But I do think that they mistrust skill and flair in the backs. Or never seem to have any luck retaining good runners in the back line. Even Christian Cullen seems tohave spent more time on the treatment table than on the pitch while playing for Munster. And he's not getting any younger.

If Mike Gibson had been a Limerick man, would he ever have got a cap?

righthand

Snickers Man wrote:

If Mike Gibson had been a Limerick man, would he ever have got a cap?

First excuse my manners at not getting back sooner. You were mainly right so not a lot of incentive for me. You can get me most of the time at MWC Forum

There is are Rules that I'm interested in your interpretation of.

Since the Robinson days the opponents have learned to advance abreast life a cavalry line and this worked. Often now the player kicks the ball over this advancing line. And in the nicest possible way they 'obstruct' him. Not to be deliberate, they appear to turn their backs but still obstruct. Refs seldom blow up for this. Any ideas.


Next I would classify as 'afters' after a try. Nowadays extraordinary efforts are made to prevent the actual touchdown. Most of them are legit or borderline. Some are downright late, but glossed over as the try is awarded. That should not justify foul play. The potential for serious injury is high.

My solution is a) general warning and b) at earliest possible opportunity after the warning, start awarding penalties to the attacking side on the half way instead of a kickoff to the defenders. A few of these in high profile match would cut down on this increasing practice.

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