Fuktard Culchie

Culchie

I never posted a bad beat post before, feeling very sorry for myself

Was 55 left, 40 to get paid, I was third in tourney chips, should I have just kept quiet and cruise into the money or did I make correct move?

I thought the chip leaders call was very bad, but I'm more concerned about my play.

Advice? I think I should have gone and put the kettle on.


Going to the pub now.


Game #709574684: Texas Hold'em No Limit (300/600) - 2005/07/23 - 20:40:09 (GMT)
Table "£3K_GTD 844491 - 5" Seat 5 is the button.
Seat 1: Culchie (18192.50 in chips)
Seat 2: *P*A*P*A* (21095 in chips)
Seat 3: Crisovin (7950 in chips)
Seat 4: Isabe2609 (10827 in chips)
Seat 5: icgboy (4350 in chips)
Seat 6: IKYBOD (7627.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Teamgods1 (9330 in chips)
Seat 8: BLIMEEY (4400 in chips)
Seat 10: cardchip (22185 in chips)
IKYBOD: posts the ante 75
Teamgods1: posts the ante 75
BLIMEEY: posts the ante 75
cardchip: posts the ante 75
Culchie: posts the ante 75
*P*A*P*A*: posts the ante 75
Crisovin: posts the ante 75
Isabe2609: posts the ante 75
icgboy: posts the ante 75
IKYBOD: posts small blind 300
Teamgods1: posts big blind 600

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HOLE CARDS

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dealt to Culchie [Ad Kh]
BLIMEEY: raises to 4325 and is all-in
cardchip: calls 4325
Culchie: raises to 18117.50 and is all-in
*P*A*P*A*: folds
Crisovin: folds
Isabe2609: folds
icgboy: folds
IKYBOD: folds
Teamgods1: folds
cardchip: calls 13792.50

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FLOP

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[Qc 2s 7h]

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TURN

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[Qc 2s 7h][Jd]

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RIVER

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[Qc 2s 7h Jd][7d]

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SHOW DOWN

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Culchie: shows [Ad Kh] (A Pair of Sevens, Ace high)
BLIMEEY: shows (A Pair of Sevens, Ace high)
cardchip: shows [Qs As] (Two Pairs, Queens and Sevens, Ace high)
cardchip collected 27585 from Side pot #1
cardchip collected 14550 from Main pot

---

SUMMARY

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Total pot 42135 Main pot 14550 Side pot #1 27585 | Rake 0
Board [Qc 2s 7h Jd 7d]
Seat 2: *P*A*P*A* folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Crisovin folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Isabe2609 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: icgboy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: IKYBOD (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Teamgods1 (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: cardchip showed [Qs As] and won (42135) with Two Pairs, Queens and Sevens, Ace high

impr0v

You should have kept quiet and cruised into the money.

Culchie

I know. Stoopid. Pub.

ocallagh

fuk the bubble, you want to win the tourny. i would have done the same. AQ was a terrible call..

NickyOD

cardchip made a ridiculous call. I don't mind how you played. If it was a flat payout structure I'd fold the AK everytime in that spot, otherwise there was nothing wtrong with your move. If it make you feel better I donked myself out of a WCOOP seat by playing back at a rock with Q7o.

Culchie

ocallagh wrote:

fuk the bubble, you want to win the tourny. i would have done the same. AQ was a terrible call..

You're my hero ! (cheers Nicky as well)

Cooled down a little, 3 S's before I hit the pub.


I did want to win tourney, he was playing table captain for quite a while and built his chips from a fair bit of luck rather than good play, so I was sure I was ahead, and I went for it alright.

Was a bitch looking at his stack of 45K or so afterwards, and second had 22K or so.

Make matters worse, he rubbed my nose in it.

I had a second in another MTT today, so not so bad day, but this one would have been nice in STG

Daithio

I don't think the play was terrible and I probably would have done the same 99% of the time but I'm starting to think there's no need to stick it all in with AK unless you're really shortstacked. It's hard to get out of the habit but there aren't really that many hands that you're a huge favourite against. So maybe a flat call would have been better. Easy with hindsight though. Hard luck anyway, I know the feeling, it's terrible.

Culchie

Daithio wrote:

I don't think the play was terrible and I probably would have done the same 99% of the time but I'm starting to think there's no need to stick it all in with AK unless you're really shortstacked. It's hard to get out of the habit but there aren't really that many hands that you're a huge favourite against. So maybe a flat call would have been better. Easy with hindsight though. Hard luck anyway, I know the feeling, it's terrible.

Back from pub....slurp in fact very

Thanks for advice, at the end of the day (keano !) I don't really mind too much if lesson that needed to be learned was given to me.
It appears that concensus is I made the right play, so believe it or not, that's important to me.

daithio, I also appreciate the other point of view as well, I am normally quite slow in throwing all my chips in, but I was 99% sure I was ahead (having played an hour with this fellah)..... and your idea would have saved me chips, because I would have folded AK no problem affter flop if opponnent betted with strength.

All a learning process eh? .... great fun

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

I don't think the play was terrible and I probably would have done the same 99% of the time but I'm starting to think there's no need to stick it all in with AK unless you're really shortstacked. It's hard to get out of the habit but there aren't really that many hands that you're a huge favourite against. So maybe a flat call would have been better. Easy with hindsight though. Hard luck anyway, I know the feeling, it's terrible.

Your a big fav over AT and AQ, flat calling here is unspeakably bad. You dont want anyone else in this pot.

Daithio

Why is flat calling so unspeakably bad? If you don't hit you can get away from it with a stack that is still fine. Also if someone goes over the top of you preflop you can muck it with a stack that is still fine. Also with a player all in you are probably going to get to see all five cards unless you are behind. I don't think it's necessary to committ all of your chips in such a strong position so close to the money with AK. Also AK is a hand you normally need to hit with, so it doesn't matter hugely if you are up against one or two players.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

Why is flat calling so unspeakably bad? If you don't hit you can get away from it with a stack that is still fine. Also if someone goes over the top of you preflop you can muck it with a stack that is still fine. Also with a player all in you are probably going to get to see all five cards unless you are behind. I don't think it's necessary to committ all of your chips in such a strong position so close to the money with AK. Also AK is a hand you normally need to hit with, so it doesn't matter hugely if you are up against one or two players.

Calling means committing 25% of your chips to the pot, if someone else calls it means the pot will be be close to the size of your stack, and you have a very vunerable and hard to play hand, which you will need to play out of position. Also, and crucially, you want to make sure that you dont give a hand like TT or JJ the chance to come over the top. If they want to play the hand they have to call all in. They also cant call and see a flop before committing all of their chips.

AK is much stronger heads up than it is multiway, the less opponents you have the better.

Calling is the weakest and worst of your options here.

Daithio

We'll just have to agree to disagree Hector. IMO the last thing you want to do at any stage of an MTT is committ your entire stack pre flop without AA or KK unless you are under extreme pressure. In an internet tourney your all in isn't going to push an opponent off 1010 or JJ anyway, so if someone does happen to wake up with a hand like this you've gone from being in an extremely strong position to win the tourney to having all your chips in on a coinflip. Position isn't very important either as with a player all in you won't be bluffing at the pot and it's unlikely other players will either unless they are ahead of you anyway. I don't think you can fold AK here for 4k as the potential pot is too large if you do hit, but putting all your chips in with it preflop is just too risky.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

IMO the last thing you want to do at any stage of an MTT is committ your entire stack pre flop without AA or KK unless you are under extreme pressure.

This is crazy

Daithio wrote:

In an internet tourney your all in isn't going to push an opponent off 1010 or JJ anyway, so if someone does happen to wake up with a hand like this you've gone from being in an extremely strong position to win the tourney to having all your chips in on a coinflip.

Yes it will. Many players will fold TT to 2 all ins. It also stands for hands like 77/88/99.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

Yes it will. Many players will fold TT to 2 all ins. It also stands for hands like 77/88/99.

I don't agree with this.. I regularly see players commit suicide with TT, 99 in the latter stages of a tourney.

The point of this thread was forgotten. The AK ws not a huge stack in the tournament, and they still had a long way to go to get decent money.. actually, they weren't even in the money.. If you had a decent stack and you were guaranteed a decent finish, I agree with Daithio and a flat call with AK is better, but in the position AK was in in this tournament I don't think the All-in was a bad move.

NickyOD

ocallagh wrote:

I don't agree with this.. I regularly see players commit suicide with TT, 99 in the latter stages of a tourney.

I would have folded Jacks in that spot and I'd have to give Queens serious consideration. I mean he was the tourney chip leader for god's sake. He should not be calling an all in without Kings or Aces there so pushing with AK is a great move. Even if he does call with 88-QQ There's enough chips in te pot to justify racing and as it turn out he got an even better situation.

Hectorjelly

ocallagh wrote:

I don't agree with this.. I regularly see players commit suicide with TT, 99 in the latter stages of a tourney.

Some players will sure, in this case since he called with AQ he almost certainly would of.

ocallagh wrote:

The AK ws not a huge stack in the tournament, and they still had a long way to go to get decent money.. actually, they weren't even in the money.. If you had a decent stack and you were guaranteed a decent finish, I agree with Daithio and a flat call with AK is better, but in the position AK was in in this tournament I don't think the All-in was a bad move.

What also important is the size of your stack, if calling was 10% or less of your stack then calling is ok. But flat calling large portions of your stack with vunerable hands is bad play period.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

I would have folded Jacks in that spot and I'd have to give Queens serious consideration. I mean he was the tourney chip leader for god's sake. He should not be calling an all in without Kings or Aces there so pushing with AK is a great move. Even if he does call with 88-QQ There's enough chips in te pot to justify racing and as it turn out he got an even better situation.

You are not an average punter though are you

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

You are not an average punter though are you

Ya think? My MTT record for the years says I'm ****. :mad:

Daithio

Hector, your reason for pushing is that you want to be heads up with AK, and discourage players from calling with middle to high middle pairs. As the call with AQ shows, in an internet tournament you cannot give your opponents that much credit, and an all in will not push them off these sort of hands. So if your all in is not going to push them off these hands, what is the reason for pushing? Your problem with my play is that I'm risking 25% of my stack with AK, my problem with your play is that you are risking 100% of your stack with AK.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

Hector, your reason for pushing is that you want to be heads up with AK, and discourage players from calling with middle to high middle pairs. As the call with AQ shows, in an internet tournament you cannot give your opponents that much credit, and an all in will not push them off these sort of hands. So if your all in is not going to push them off these hands, what is the reason for pushing? Your problem with my play is that I'm risking 25% of my stack with AK, my problem with your play is that you are risking 100% of your stack with AK.

Good point, however you do it with the assumption that your raise does the most to discourage any callers behind you; becuase you dont want any. The CL might decide to see a flop with QJs or KJ or whatever, if you go all in it maximises the chances of getting heads up. Also by flat calling your not really risking 25% of your stack, because if you get a caller behind the pot will be so big that you cant really fold if you have any outs at all.

Culchie

Boy, and I had 20 seconds to make a move or not.

It is educational to see such debate from repected players.

In the case in question, (and I am not saying I am right...I am saying why I did it) .... the guy that pushed had to make a move this orbit, he was big blind next, so most probable best hand unless he got lucky was Ax, or lower pair.

The CL's flat call (who had been a calling station for the previous hour, and had his stack from a fair slice of luck rather than good play) left me in the belief he also had Ax (if he had a pair, this guy would have pushed himself).
So now there was about 9500 chips in the pot, and I'm positive I have a dominant hand against CL and most probably original raiser .... so I pushed with my stack, and I thought cardchip (tourney CL) made a lousy call with AQ.

(KPNuts, Fatboydim betfair regulars maybe would have a better read on this guy Cardchip, and could provide further opinion)

It is important that I stress that much of the reason for the play I made was made on previous hours play at the same table.

If my hand held up, I would have been 20000 chips clear of 2nd place, I wanted to win this tourney ...it didn't, I went out.


As a footnote despite his huge stack, this fellah only made the minor placings, he could have cruised to final table, but lost all his chips on two similarily bad calls. I was chatting to him since.

This has been interesting for me. If in same situation again, I'd take my full 20 seconds and ......... tbh, I don't know, I will have to weigh up the different pieces of information again.

I'm not in the habit of throwing it all in with AK, but it felt like the correct move at the time.

Hectorjelly

Now I could well be an idiot but when I read the original post I thought that the CL hadnt put a chip into the pot yet, the fact that he has flat called already means that flat calling is a more attractive option than I previously thought.

Culchie

Hmmm, I don't like the call option at all, it's either a fold or a push for me.

My head hurts.

Hectorjelly

Culchie wrote:

Hmmm, I don't like the call option at all, it's either a fold or a push for me.

My head hurts.

I still think its the worst option

Culchie

me too.