defendu?

pma-ire

http://www.defendu.ie/index.htm

Maeve,

Whats this all about then??

(not flaming! just asking )

Kevin_rc_ie

it's crazy cat stuff. are you a crazy cat?

dlofnep

Instructor is a BJJ blue belt. Not had a chance to check it out for myself.

MaeveD

What would you like to know?? :rolleyes:

pma-ire

MaeveD wrote:

What would you like to know?? :rolleyes:

Who does it?

What do they do?

What have they done?

Things like that

MaeveD

There's loads of info on that link above but hope this gives you some idea:

Who: Defend U Irelands main instructor is Ray Butcher. (2nd dan Aikido, blu belt BJJ) There are six (I think) other Women's Self Defence instructors here. There is also Defend U Phoenix and New York, their head instrucors are BJJ purple and brown belts.

What defendu do: Women Self Defence (focusing on rape and sexual assault), Mens Self Defence, Control and Restraint, Defensive Tactics etc. Martial arts: Aikido and BJJ

What have they done: All the clients for the women's self defence courses are listed on the website. Ray has clubs for BJJ and Aikido in Swords and Fairview. Aikido club is 5 years old, the BJJ has been going since last Sept. He also teaches C&R and DT to Gardai and security.

We're taking a summer break this year, so finished aikido and BJJ classes now till the beginning of Sept. (last BJJ class today in Fairview)

Musashi

The only thing I didn't really like about this site is that it might appear to be teaching Defendu,a WWII combatives program from W.E. Fairbairn,very similar to the military version of Combato.I don't know if this was deliberate on the part of the founders in the US,it just seems a little disingenuous to me.
However,if what they are teaching is simple and effective,and keeps some lady from becoming a victim then more power to em!

What is "Defendu"

American Combato

Irish Guys Review of Combato

Scan of Original "Combato" manual

And just because he was a contemporary of Fairbairn ,one of the first westerners to be highly ranked in Judo,and from Cork (no-ones perfect)

Dermot Michael "Paddy" O'Neill

MaeveD

Defend U is short for Defend University... nothing to do with combat anything!

Dyr

i actually presumed that that was website was defendu
thats somewhat misleading tbh

pma-ire

MaeveD wrote:

There's loads of info on that link above but hope this gives you some idea:

Who: Defend U Irelands main instructor is Ray Butcher. (2nd dan Aikido, blu belt BJJ) There are six (I think) other Women's Self Defence instructors here. There is also Defend U Phoenix and New York, their head instrucors are BJJ purple and brown belts.

What defendu do: Women Self Defence (focusing on rape and sexual assault), Mens Self Defence, Control and Restraint, Defensive Tactics etc. Martial arts: Aikido and BJJ

What have they done: All the clients for the women's self defence courses are listed on the website. Ray has clubs for BJJ and Aikido in Swords and Fairview. Aikido club is 5 years old, the BJJ has been going since last Sept. He also teaches C&R and DT to Gardai and security.

We're taking a summer break this year, so finished aikido and BJJ classes now till the beginning of Sept. (last BJJ class today in Fairview)

Thanks for the reply with detail Maeve

MaeveD

No probs...

breadmonkey

Why would they teach BJJ and Aikdido? I've never done any Aikido but from talking to Columok, it appears to be quite ineffective.

MaeveD

breadmonkey wrote:

Why would they teach BJJ and Aikdido? I've never done any Aikido but from talking to Columok, it appears to be quite ineffective.

Why not come out and try it and form your own opinion??
4 week beginners course starts in September... I've been doing Aikido for 10 years and I certainly don't feel that I've wasted my time...

breadmonkey

I knew someone would say that. You're right though, I should do it for myself

memphis

What is Aikido like? I mean what kinda moves do ye have? I'm told it has alot of swift had movements, and that techniques tend to be a flow of energy.... somewhat like shanghai monk stuff.... am I correct??

MaeveD

Very difficult question to answer..... the techniques are mostly throws and joint locks derived from Jujitsu other techniques derived from Kenjutsu. Aikido focuses not on punching or kicking opponents, but rather on using their own energy to gain control of them or to throw them away from you. It's not a static art, but places great emphasis on motion and the dynamics of movement.

Hope that helped... our association is 10 years old in Sept and we have a 6th and a 5th dan from France coming over to teach the anniversary course. It's in DCU... come have a look and see for youself.

Shanghai monk stuff.... don't know anything about it!

columok

Aikido is based on classical ju-jitsu.

Its training methods tend to be by and large its major failing. Due to a lack of sparring Aikidoka have trouble applying their "technique" to resistance.

MaeveD

columok wrote:

Aikido is based on classical ju-jitsu.

Its training methods tend to be by and large its major failing. Due to a lack of sparring Aikidoka have trouble applying their "technique" to resistance.

No, there is no offical sparring or competion in Aikido... I personally have experienced lots of both on the mat... it really depends on where and who you train with and what they practice... eg:: traditional, dynamic, martial, peace and love.. or a mixture

With regard to trouble applying technique to resistance....we have two gardai that train with us that would beg to differ, they use Aikido techniques regularly in the course of their duty.. real life resistance! Will you ever see an Aikidoka in the octagon.... ehhhh no don't think so!

Me personally... I would use self defence techniques if attacked, something simple and effective.... in my opinion martial arts don't necessarily make good self defence and I study two.

Who did you practice Aikido with Columok?

columok

I trained with John Rogers and Dermot Moran.

I think that many of the principles of Aikido are fundamentally sound but without a training method of sparring against resistance then the Aikidoka cannot develop the skills necessary to use their techniques.

I can understand studying Aikido for non self defence reasons and studying BJJ for functionality. Surely in training in the two you can see the training method of the former to be lacking in developing functional grappling skills.

columok

Also with regards to the garda being able to apply their aikido the question is whether they can consistently use the aikido on opponents of equal weight/strength in a sparring environment.

MaeveD

When I started we were associated to John... now I can see where you're coming from... it's quite different from what I do. Not sure I remember Dermot. How long did you train with them for?? What Ma's do you study now?

Of course Aikido would be crap for developing ground skills... as would any stand up martial art?

Don't get ya.....The gardai I train with use their Aikido technique dealing with/controlling and restraining real life scumbags in real life situations...not a weight/strength controlled sparring enviornment??

I study martial arts primarily for enjoyment... the other reasons change daily

On a lighter note answer me something which puzzles me... why do men grapple etc in short lycra shorts? (Not complaining, eg Rickson Gracie looked hmmm in his younger days ) Surely it's not practical, the only time I've ever seen a man on the street wearing just lycra shorts was in Provincetown, US.

TwoKingMick

Thats for tournaments etc, because it provides minimal grip for you opponent and doesnt get in the way. Most people who you see training (who arent complete posers) train in a tshirt and shorts or a judo/bjj gi.

Kevin_rc_ie

I think it's possible if you can do maneovres on somebody wearing nothing, you can do it to them if they're wearing cloths. but if you learned how to do something on someone wearing cloths, and then, for some reason, had to fight them while they were naked, you wouldn't be able to use your methods as effectively.

AFAIK, the ancient greeks did wrestling naked. Personally speaking, I found competition in judo against people wearing a judo gi much easier then competition against people bare chested or wearing a t-shirt.

is some of your reasoning for your question why do people train in little skimpy shorts if they're training to imitate and prefer for real life scenarios i think you've misunderstood a bit. Doesn't the Krav Maga dude teach the classes in his own street cloths etc.?

Kevin_rc_ie

Oh yes, concerning Rickson etc. competing in the shorts. I assume it is because they want to give as little advantage to their opponent as possible. If they wear their BJJ gi they'll get strangled and controlled by it, if they wear Rash guards etc. they can also get gripped by it. Also, it may aid slipping out of stuff. I find it much easier to dodge arm bars if i'm not wearing a gi nor is my "attacker".

columok

Of course Aikido would be crap for developing ground skills... as would any stand up martial art?

Well I think things like ikkyo pins and the likes if taken into a live sparring environment are rendered useless.

Aikido is by and large a standing grappling martial art. It (mainly) concerns taking people down using various kokyu, koshi and joint throws. Due to a lack of sparring in Aikido I dont feel that the training methods allow an aikidoka to apply their skills against resistance.

I trained for 3 years. I train in BJJ and MMA now. I've seen many of the principles of Aikido present in wrestling but due to training methods the wrestlers can apply their principles where the aikidoka cannot.

columok

As regards to the lycra pants thing....

They should be banned. Fight shorts are the work of the devil.

dlofnep

I've moved on to board shorts. Much cooler!

soma

dlofnep wrote:

I've moved on to board shorts. Much cooler!

As both a surfer and a martial artist.... I'm not sure the lines are too clear as regards those MMA (?) shorts vs board shorts!

PS saw a lad wandering around cabra yesterday in his MT shorts. I couldnt decide if he probably just liked the look of them or was out looking to be challenged :cool: PPS of course they coulda been boardies but unlikely in
cabra!

Kevin_rc_ie

Yeah I have to say Cro cops hot pants are a bit odd, very WWF 1989. Having said that, boards shorts ala Chuck Liddell annoy me too. I like the Muai Thai stylee ones. Gi pants and anything other than a Gi jacket looks odd too.

Due to a lack of sparring Aikidoka have trouble applying their "technique" to resistance.

Excuse me, Have you not seen Under Seige? Under Seige 2? The Glimmer Man?

columok

Excuse me, Have you not seen Under Seige? Under Seige 2? The Glimmer Man?

My bad. If a wifebeating acting genius can use it functionally then you can too.

Kevin_rc_ie

Wifebeating?

columok

Kelly Le Brock

Kevin_rc_ie

Innocent until proven guilty. I demand you retract your unfounded libelous statements unless you can show me some evidence to support your claim.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Well I think things like ikkyo pins and the likes if taken into a live sparring environment are rendered useless.

Aikido is by and large a standing grappling martial art. It (mainly) concerns taking people down using various kokyu, koshi and joint throws. Due to a lack of sparring in Aikido I dont feel that the training methods allow an aikidoka to apply their skills against resistance.

I trained for 3 years. I train in BJJ and MMA now. I've seen many of the principles of Aikido present in wrestling but due to training methods the wrestlers can apply their principles where the aikidoka cannot.

Colum,

Your comments here are classic! I've heard the same things for years from people that have left there base (original) arts because they were not functional/practical enough. But you have even commented on the way to correct this

I've seen many of the principles of Aikido present in wrestling but due to training methods the wrestlers can apply their principles where the aikidoka cannot.

You could have made a change to the training of Aikido you were practicing to reflect your prefered method of training. Without abandoning the art you had trained in for 3 years and writing it off?

But this has been your own choice and you are quite intitled to have taken this option for yourself.

Maeve,

From what I can see of this group that you train with, they are working in a very open and progressive manner. I hope to get a chance to meet with some of you at some time in the future

columok

Paul,

traditional Aikido people are very strict about following what Japan says. No chance of changing things. Besides it isnt my place to tell people how to train in real life. I reserve that right for the internet alone.

Colum

Kevin_rc_ie

i read somewhere (on the internet of course) that aikido instructors weren't really into people asking them questions. i read they liked to just show, and people copy. and you just repeat until you get it. i'll give aikido a few goes in the new college term (i shan't pay for it then) so i'll see what they have on offer. anyone know anything about the Club in Trinity college Dublin?

columok

Kev,

Will fill you in Sunday. Trained with them a good bit.

Colum

MaeveD

Paul,
You're more than welcome to come and visit us anytime... thanks for your comments...we do try

Kevin,
Yep, you get a lot of teachers that don't like people asking questions... but in my experience that's the same with a lot of MAs. I think myself very fortunate to be part of a non trad style. You're in for a treat with John Rogers.. if he teaches... Long long time since I trained with him... but experiences not easily forgotten..... :rolleyes:

vasch_ro

ahem !! Enter Boards Garda Colum Ok prepared earlier
Most of my struggles with people have gone to the ground( at a rough guess I would 95 to 97 per cent either because we fell (about 80% or because we put then there), which is a good thing as its normally a lot easier to cuff em there , which is the objective when your a police man, personally I found ground work and wrestling skill much more use to me on the job, holding a Black Belt in Karate and having Taking Aikido also (trained with john Rogers and his wife) did not offer me much,
In fact John K took myself and my colleagues on an intro course for greco- roman based sytem which SBG do for law enforcement, it was only an about 2 hours or so real easy stuff, but the guys reqularly tell that it has really stood them , I guess its each to its own, I'm not knocking aikido
as a path to self harmony I think its great, I believe as a way of life it is just as valid a choice as any other, I think it looks cool , but for work give me BJJ/freestyle wrestling any day of the week.

I also believe some styles of aikido do have sparring.....
"Tomiki Sensei saw the need for a unified methodology in the teaching of Aikido. He also recognized the need to practice safely at high speeds, and introduced free-sparring as competition. As a result, Tomiki Aikido is more structured in its approach to teaching Aikido"
http://www.tomikiaikido.com/

I think the lycra thing is to prevent loose cloth which is easily grabbed
although some people like O keefe just like wearing lycra !!

columok

I think the lycra thing is to prevent loose cloth which is easily grabbed although some people like O keefe just like wearing lycra !!

I think when I was reffing the over 93kg advanced at the National Submission Championships I came across a certain garda attired in a rashguard/boardshorts combo. Next you'll have the formula one gi.

Maeve,

Have you ever tried your aikido against a wrestler or a fully resisting judoka? If you guys do functional Aikido I'd love to see it at the boards meet and fight on the 14th. Would you be able to make it?

Cheers,

Colum

MaeveD

Colum,

you keep repeating yourself??? get the feeling your're just not listening to me...sob!! I've already told you that Aikido would be useless in that situation????? Are you like this because you spent too long with JR??

Anyway, I'm off to the states to do some BJJ

columok

you keep repeating yourself??? get the feeling your're just not listening to me...sob!! I've already told you that Aikido would be useless in that situation????? Are you like this because you spent too long with JR??

You said before that Aikido would be useless in an octagon. You also said it wouldnt be any use on the ground. I dont see where you said that aikido wouldnt work against wrestlers and judoka. The primary range of wrestlers and judoka is the standing clinch range. The very same range that Aikido throws take place in. Unless we're talking about standup range where its the preserve of thai boxers and boxer.

Are you saying that aikido doesnt work against other grapplers?

Colm_OReilly

Your comments here are classic! I've heard the same things for years from people that have left there base (original) arts because they were not functional/practical enough. But you have even commented on the way to correct this

Option A: Begin adding resistance to all the moves in your Aikido arsenal. Discarding those that fail to work repeatedly, refining those that do. After several months/years you have something resembling wrestling.

Option B: Go to a wrestling coach, gain the same skill level in a fraction of the time.

That's the way I look at it anyway.

Colm

Dyr

columok wrote:

Are you saying that aikido doesnt work against other grapplers?

I think thats a fair assesement. Funny thing is a lot of the really good orignal aikido guys had some serious kodokan training behind them, coinkydink??

Tim_Murphy

You could have made a change to the training of Aikido you were practicing to reflect your prefered method of training. Without abandoning the art you had trained in for 3 years and writing it off?

Sure you can but as the lads said, what you are doing will stop looking like you base art, aikido will start to look like wrestling and from own point of view TKD will start to look like Muay Thai. Now I can still call it my style of TKD if I want that doesnt really matter but if I was to get a coach in to help improve my game I'd have to go with a Muay Thai one.
Another thing worth thinking about is that if a person does go down the road of making their style more functional then in general their instructor won't be overly happy about it, and if they are the instructor in their club then whatever group they are affiliated to won't be too happy. It can cause a lot of agro and bad feeling.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Paul,

traditional Aikido people are very strict about following what Japan says. No chance of changing things. Besides it isnt my place to tell people how to train in real life. I reserve that right for the internet alone.

Colum

And I'd be the first one to stand up for you use and abuse that right .

The majority of "Traditional" MA associations are happy in there respective worlds. Anyone looking to make a shake up normally gets knocked on by the main zombies that follow the trend, and so keeps the flock bleating in tune.

Every so often though there are folks that take off on there own tangent and end up starting there own training styles or version of the art (and the whole thing starts again.

You don't really need to be with a group that is supressing your views and you don't have to force anyone from the original style to follow your teachings.

Just be yourself and develop your way.

columok

Well I think there is a greater benefit (for your training and that of your students) to use the infrastructures already present in the more advanced arts.

As in go to wrestling. Develop and promote wrestling. Enhance its already existing infrastructure rather than starting a new one.

Its more efficient. Besides you'll learn quicker.

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Another thing worth thinking about is that if a person does go down the road of making their style more functional then in general their instructor won't be overly happy about it, and if they are the instructor in their club then whatever group they are affiliated to won't be too happy. It can cause a lot of agro and bad feeling.

Thats why clean breaks away from the original group is sometimes needed to further your own development in the direction that you feel most suits your needs.

Leaving on good friendly terms should soften the shock. But I have found that old TKD training buddies that I have met recently are a bit stand-offish (and had'int even farted??) when I trained with them earlier this year

But I remain open and willing to train with everyone and anyone while still keeping my identity and chosen path. Sparring in my club is lookingvery like UFC/MMA stuff! I would hope to have some folks I know in to show the people in my club how to handle themselves in these ranges at sometime when I have the numbers up to a good level again in the new term.

But we still train in Kata/Hyung(Tul) and all the rest and I am learning the Heian set of Karate kata at the moment for my own interest in original Korean MA forms. So soon I will be doing what looks more like Tang Soo Do or original Chung Do Kwan TKD, and be totally alienated by those doing Chang hon (ITF) forms!!

But it don't bother me, and it should'int bother anyone else!!

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Well I think there is a greater benefit (for your training and that of your students) to use the infrastructures already present in the more advanced arts.

As in go to wrestling. Develop and promote wrestling. Enhance its already existing infrastructure rather than starting a new one.

Its more efficient. Besides you'll learn quicker.

What are the more advanced arts??

You should adapt anything that will help you or those training with you get better results from their efforts! Learn from anyone, anywhere, at anytime!

columok

The arts that have been advancing towards functionality for thousands of years rather than than few years since you discover that your TMA isnt functional.

Clive

TKD is the most advaced art abd anyone saying otherwiser will answer to me.