The truth about making money online?

pyure

hi guys,

as a fairly regular play money gamer on vc with an interest in moving into real money games im interested to hear your views on this topic:
Several people on this board have previously listed their earnings as up to 100dollars a night, now this got me to thinking - how typical is this? by playing tight, knowing a moderate amount about stats/strategies and a little careful work - planning your sessions, picking your games and keeping an eye on your opps etc, is it possible to achieve 50-100 profit a night, or are people who make this sort of money just really very good players?

DeVore

Its very untypical, my estimate is that about 15% of players are long term cash generators. However, there are a lot of fish out there, people who will never win big. Careful play should see you winning 100 euro a night on average if you are good, and play tight. A lot of people simply tell porkies about how much they win, I've had a horrible time in the cash games online, I'm down 4-500 notes with tournament wins paying off a good chunk of that. I've only been playing for about 2 months online and not really seriously at the moment so I'm not too concerned. Noone likes to say they are losing but honesty is important or you'll fool yourself as well as others...

DeV.

NickyOD

The other thing to note is that many winning players have taken a long time to get there. A lot of successful internet players (myself included) take 1-2 years maybe more to make any headway at all. Also what a lot of players don't realise is that the main contributing factor to being a losing player is not a lack of ability but playing at stakes above their abilities or over the limits of their bankroll.

Einstein

so where does that bankroll begin?
You can't win any cash without depositing money forst...am i right?
Is it just a case of, "right, this 50 is my first deposit, and after that you build that through winning games?

Tackle

I had to make three lodgements - €50 €50 €100 - before I started showing a profit. I was slowly building up my balance playing STTs and moving up levels each time my bankroll was large enough. But I decided to give the cash games a go over the last week after reading Nickys post about his earnings after 10,000 hands.

Since then my balance has been going up much faster. Over €100 profit for today and the same for yesterday. If you can find a nice loose table and aren't afraid to get involved you can really can make some money.

But you have to be prepared for the losses aswell. Both today and yesterday I hit an €80 downswing straight off. I was nearly going to leave it for today when I got cleaned out by a lucky maniac with four aces, but I went back an hour later after cooling off and won my cash back with interest. I'm currently playing the 0.25/0.50 games on PPP and I hope to move up in a few weeks when I'd feel comfortable with €200 downswings.

pyure

thanks for the replies guys,

the general feeling im getting is start on low STT and build your way up, eventually moving into cash games, would people agree with that?

as for a bankroll, im planning on playing with paddy powers - no credit card and its handy to stroll in and open an account - what sort of money should i be talking? whats the range of prices on STTs like?

ZZR1100

Tackle wrote:

playing the 0.25/0.50 games on PPP and I hope to move up in a few weeks when I'd feel comfortable with €200 downswings.

Be prepared for bigger downswings than 200.try an 8 week downswing (yes it happens) and see what figure you come up with

Tackle

I meant $200 downswings per session, I can imagine an 8 week downswing would be alot more costly than $200.

Hey pyure, start with €50 euro and play the .50c or $1 STTs for a while, move up to the $3's when you think you're ready. I used to wait till I'd made 25 times the buy-in of the higher level before I'd move up. $125 for $5 games, $250 for $10 games. I threw away my first two lodgements by trying higher levels before I was ready or had the bankroll.

DaBreno

Ive been keeping a record of my play for the last few weeks in a spreadhseet to see how I was getting on. I record the date, duration, game type ,stakes and what kind of money I making or losing. I also write any comments to remind myself of stupid plays. Im consistantly winning 10-17 dollars per two hour session every night on Pacific Poker. Its the NL $25 buy-in cash games. A lot of crazy players, I can sometimes be 80 bucks up for a night and some fool keeps calling a 10 or 20 dollar bet all the way to the river where he makes his hand. Argh! Tis a long way from the 100 bucks profit a night but when I read DeVores comment of only 15% of players making a profit, it cheered me up a bit.

ps. Are there any such rooms on Paddy Power poker? Pacific are a bitch to withdraw from. A cheque takes 6 weeks to arrive and a wire transfer is a pain to setup. wouldnt mind a handy Irish option. Cheers.

Iago

I made about 3-4 deposits at the start, mainly due to playing at higher levels before I was ready. For example I'd deposit $50 and when I won a few $5 and even $10 games I'd jump to the $15 and $25 games and a few losses later my money was gone.

I was also playing far too many MTT's without getting money finishes and that was adversely affecting my BR.

Now I play the $25 STT's exclusively and although my BR could handle the $50 STT's I'm going to stay where I am for now. I haven't had to make a deposit in the last 6 months and I'm regularly making money. Nothing spectacular but my average ROI is 27% over the last 800 STT's (this isn't statistically significant yet, but I like to keep track anyway).

The key is to manage your bankroll correctly, and the games you play at. My personal rule of thumb is 15-20 entry fees for STTs at whatever level you're going to play at.

I think they start at .10c level on PPP and VC, so you'll be easily accomodated starting off. The key is to aim for a money finish, play very tight early on and you'll find that a lot of players will knock themselves out. It's not unusual to be down to 4-5 players by the end of level 3 in these STTs

jimbling

I just had my first week of steady profit, playing one game type.

I have been playing for about 5 months, and have been jumping about from stts to cash to mtts.. with varying limits, while trying to learn the game. I would be down money if it wasn't for a MTT win which got me 360 and a 3rd spot that got me 140.

But, due to NickyODs posts, I decided to give the 6 handed cash games on Empire Poker a go. In the last week and a half I have made about $500, playing the .25/.50 game. This is based on about 4000 hands, which is not nearly enough to know that its not just an upswing. I find the variance is huge, but if you multitable and play tight, you can win a fair bit.

I have learned a huge amount about poker since I started, and still have a long long way to go, so I wouldn't dream of jumping straight into games like this... but it is the aim.

pyure

hi all,

thanks again for the replies, didnt realise that PPP had games for as low as 10c. Hoping to make on start on those this weekend, also maybe pick up a book on poker strategy in dublin - maybe some recommendations on one that deals with playing tight poker?

one more point - how long does it take to play a STT? and what is the standard like in these games?

EDIT: almost forgot, how are you winnings calculated from each tournament?

Iago

STT's vary from 20 minutes to an hour. Normally 20-35 minutes each.

There's a sticky at the top of the forum with recommendations for websites and books you should have a look at that.

In terms of caluclating winnings, start with a simple spreadsheet. Put in the date, type of game played, entry fee (inc. reg fee), place, prize money and profit. You could also include a notes column for how you went out or things you should work on.

Over time you can start to calculate your ROI and your ITM % and see how you're getting on from there.

corblimey

I've been online a full week now (ooooh!) but I've found that the way that works for me is I play STTs exclusively, and use the Action points I accumulate (on PPP) to enter free roll MTTs. I'm about 50-50 itm on STTs but at 5.50 a shot, I'm not breaking the bank and most of my wins have been 1st place. I also had a big day at one of the cash tables when I sat down with a fiver and stood up less than a hour later with 40! I played the cash tables to get my Bonus Points to get my free money, but I've not been back since.

I deposited e50 last Thursday and I currently have e150 in my account. No 100 bucks a day, but it's keeping me amused.

pyure, PPP have 3 types of STT, normal, speed and turbo. The only diff is the blind schedule, I think it's 2 mins per level at turbo. Each of these also have 6 and 9 seat options. The pay structure is different (9: 3 paid 6: 2 paid). Last time I timed myself, I finished first on a 9-seat speed in 43 minutes. Pretty quick.

Tackle

I had a look around Dublin for books a when I was starting and didn't have much luck. My brother bought a few off the net, but the best information I found was on the net particularly the twoplustwo forums: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/ubbthreads.php

Here's their beginners guide to STTS: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=602767&page=&view=&sb=5&o=

Culchie

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9214


An excellent article on starting out in Poker.

I'm sure you will enjoy it !

pyure

thanks for the links guys, esp culchie - hilarious read

went looking for paddy powers shops on the net today, intending to nip down at lunch time and lodge a few quid...turns out they have shops in 24 of the 26 counties - and im in one of the two that has none typcial.

Vamos

As the lads said, don't expect to start off earning $100 a night. Play as much low stakes as possible before you move up.
Back when VC had 10c Stt giveaways, was when I started playing. Never put in a deposit but worked from these 10c Stt giveaways to 10c stt's to the dizzy height of $1stt's eventually to $800 profit in about 6 months which was great since I was a broke student at the time.
I did it the hard way but I consider it a great(and cheap) way of learning to play.
There is a big difference between play money and even a $1 stt so don't be afraid to graft away at mini micro stake for a while.

Doc Farrell

NickyOD wrote:

The other thing to note is that many winning players have taken a long time to get there. A lot of successful internet players (myself included) take 1-2 years maybe more to make any headway at all. Also what a lot of players don't realise is that the main contributing factor to being a losing player is not a lack of ability but playing at stakes above their abilities or over the limits of their bankroll.

This says all that i can say.

RasTa

I just play real money tabs now. 10cent 25 cent. 80 up this week and was 50 up on BJ but lost it all today. Depends how u play, i dont even sit with the max amount on the poker tabs, which is apparently a bad idea. I sit down with 10 bucks and after 30mins if i have only won 2 bucks ill stop, no point in playing for the big wins. Smaller is much better i have finally found out(after about 4 months of playing)

Samba

Don't Expect to jump from play money to real money and make money consistenly i must have lost a good 1k at 25/50c over 6 months before i started to learn how to win consistently, and before i learnt to win consistently there was a good 2-3 months of simply breaking even so that's nearly a year of play.

It's all about experience and being able to sum up situations, there are two key aspects of your game where you need strength to win consistently.

Knowing how to get the most chips out of good cards and knowing when to lay down monsters.

I.e the nut flush and the board pairs on the river and you are faced with an all in bet.

Opened my pp account last week, up just over 1k, but with no net conenction I have not been able to play consistently. Omaha put a dent of $600 on my winnings, QQxx v AQxx AQ flop two of us were huge stacks, he bets in to me, I re-raise he pushes, river A. $600 poof gone.

It's not all plain sailing regardless of how tight you play, you cannot avoid horrible river cards, they are a part of poker and they effect everyone and unfortunately they can be very costly.


Another problem is boredom, this is starting to effect me in a serious way, i find myself spending less and less time grinding it out even with 4 tables open.

And while now i have no work as such, I am considering alternative means to earn money, somthing a little more fufilling than sitting on my a ss 10 hours a day staring at a screen.

my two cent.

Lafortezza

A while ago kencleary posted on a thread about bankrolls. He basically said that you don't need to have careful bankroll management to have fun online and to win money. If you deposit €200 on a friday evening you can play at a decent level online and while you obviously you don't have the bankroll to be playing some limits, you can still win money by playing well. It's like going into the fitz with a couple of hundred and taking a shot at the cash game tables. You'd need a bankroll of a couple of thousand if you were doing it every night.

Sometimes you just want to mess about and not analyse, you want to get your gamble on and feck it if you lose a couple of hundred. Nobody here plays with their rent money right? Right?

mewso

Nobody has mentioned the Yamaha at all. Don't people agree that it's a goldmine out there with so many clueless players trying their hand at the 4 card game.

Lafortezza

musician wrote:

Nobody has mentioned the Yamaha at all. Don't people agree that it's a goldmine out there with so many clueless players trying their hand at the 4 card game.

I agree but shhhh! We don't want too many people who know what they're doing playing teh yamaha.

PPP-Pit Boss

What is "the Yamaha" why do I know nothing of this yamaha? Tell me.. tell me now I say ! ;0)