moneymaker and the mighty 72s

Fathead

Taken from cardplayer.com....

Chris Moneymaker Eliminated
Log: 2003 Main Event World Champion Chris Moneymaker moves all in from the small blind with 7h-2h, and is called by Jeremy Khinoo who holds A-K. The board comes K-Q-3-3-Q, and Moneymaker is sent home on Day 2 by Jeremy Khinoo's two pair with the ace kicker.


Wtf is a former worldchamp doing going all in with a 72s... :eek:

Iago

Fathead wrote:

Taken from cardplayer.com....

Chris Moneymaker Eliminated

Wtf is a former worldchamp doing going all in with a 72s... :eek:

That's his mistake right there, he got suckered in by the imposter. Everyone knows that 72s is a rubbish hand. Had it been 72o it would of won of course, I'm surprised he didn't see it himself!

Hectorjelly

The profit in those situations comes from when you're not called, so your cards are almost meaningless.

Fathead

I understand that but would you put your entire tournament on the line with such a weak hand. Surely if your making a move you should have a least some sort of fighting chance, especially in a tournament of this stature.
All he was pickin up were the ante's and the big blind.

mewso

Very hard to take what you see as the way it happened. I saw on another site that he went all in on a flop with 2 hearts (having been in free on the BB) and moved in on a flush draw.
As to HJs point I think moving pre-flop with 72h is madness unless you know your opponent will lay his hand down. I don't think Moneymaker is that bad a player but I'm not sure if he is good enough to make those decisions. His so called "bluff of the century" against Sammy Farha (a far superior player imho) in 2003 was a foolish move against a proven reader of opponents. As it was he got away with it.

Hectorjelly

Harringtons move with 62o at the WSOP 04 is widely held as genius play, Arieh raises - Raymer flat calls and Harrington moves over the top all in with 62o. Moneymaker does roughly the same thing, but in a much less risky position and is widely ridiculed. The only difference was that Moneymaker ran into a real hand.

I guarantee that any top class player who gets shortstacked is moving in with any two cards if he figures theres a good chance he can get a fold. When your shortstacked just picking up the blinds and antes is a big reward. It really doesnt make much difference at all what your hand is, the expected profit comes from the 90% of the time when everyone folds.

PPP-Pit Boss

perhaps it is a touch of the omnipotent? Then when they fold to my clear superiority I shall show them how holding the worst hand in poker makes no difference when you are the best. Bad move that clearly went horribly wrong.. he must have been more than a little embarrassed. Im in complete agreement with Fat.. I mean the hammer? For the LOVE of god!

Fathead

Thats a move i have no problem with.
I'm pruely basing my opinion on what i read on cardplayer unfortuneately i wasn't there to witness it myself we'll have to wait and see if ESPN are kind enough to show the hand.

Iago

this was far worse

With the board showing A-K-J-10 Russell Salzer bets out $35,000. In a split second, Seat 6 moves all in, and Russell Salzer calls. Seat 6 shows 8-7 for no pair, and no draw. Salzer flips over K-Q for the nut straight. The river is an 8. Seat 6 makes a pair of eights, but it's no match for Salzer's nut straight. Seat 6 is sent to the rail, and Russell Salzer is sitting on approximately $300,000 in chips. After dragging the pot, Salzer told CardPlayer.com, "Don't write about that. It's unreal. It's not reality."

Tackle

I don't see anything wrong with the move if he was shortstacked SB and there had been 0/1 limpers. When you don't want to be called it's better to go all-in against one player with 72o than to go all-in with several players left to act with a hand like K10.

And 72s is not really that much of a dog against two higher unpaired cards such as AK, it's only 2-1.

Hectorjelly

If you think its a bad move then its clear you dont understand it, or the maths behind it. 72s is not a bad hand in the circumstances, because it performs quite well against an opponents likely calling range. Its almost exactly the same as moving in with A4.

If its folded to you on the sb with A4o and your shortstacked you should move in because its likely you have the best hand. Howver if you are called you are likely to be dominated, if your opponent calls with a range of AA - 77, Ak - A7, you have an equity of 29%. If you move in with 72s then you have an equity of 28%. So the hands have almost exactly the same expectation.

There is 0% chance that Moneymaker would show this hand, because since he was shortstacked he would be planning to move in many times after this, and showing 72s isnt going to help him.

Fathead

your right i don't understand it but explained as you have beautifully i can see where your coming from. its just that it goes against all i've read and studied to commit all your chips in the WSoP with the second worst hand in poker. why not wait just one hand and you have a full round of the table before its back to you chances are you'll pick up a some what better hand in that time..

ppp pit its fathead the rest of me ain't that bad i just have a large cranium

BigDragon

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you think its a bad move then its clear you dont understand it, or the maths behind it. 72s is not a bad hand in the circumstances, because it performs quite well against an opponents likely calling range. Its almost exactly the same as moving in with A4.

If its folded to you on the sb with A4o and your shortstacked you should move in because its likely you have the best hand. Howver if you are called you are likely to be dominated, if your opponent calls with a range of AA - 77, Ak - A7, you have an equity of 29%. If you move in with 72s then you have an equity of 28%. So the hands have almost exactly the same expectation.

There is 0% chance that Moneymaker would show this hand, because since he was shortstacked he would be planning to move in many times after this, and showing 72s isnt going to help him.

I understood that, and agree wholeheartedly. The situation dictated the play, not the cards. This is tournament poker not a cash game.

Hectorjelly

Fathead wrote:

your right i don't understand it but explained as you have beautifully i can see where your coming from. its just that it goes against all i've read and studied to commit all your chips in the WSoP with the second worst hand in poker. why not wait just one hand and you have a full round of the table before its back to you chances are you'll pick up a some what better hand in that time..

ppp pit its fathead the rest of me ain't that bad i just have a large cranium

Because your shortstacked and every hand you wait your get more shortstacked (you play an ante every hand). Also chances to move in can be far and few between. You might pick up AJ the next hand on the button but what are you going to do when its been raised before you? When you get to desperation stage you are looking for an opportunity to move all your chips into the pot FIRST. Your cards are a secondary consideration.

Fathead

Cheers for the lesson, Proves to me that i have a long way to go back to the books for me.

BigDragon

What you are doing is taking the decision out of your hands and putting it onto someone else. If they have a hand then its a race. If they have no hand then you are in a strong position even if they think you're 'at it'. They have to call you. Is it worth doubling you up with their hand, or will they wait for a better hand when you go in again. Position and picking spots is the play here, not the cards, they don't matter.

NickyOD

but they were sooooooooooted!!!

Seriously, hector is on the ball here. I woudn't ridicule Moneymaker unless I knew the circumstances. If you really need chips and the pot odds allow its often quite correct to push with any two cards that are very live. I've said it several times on this forum about shortstack play. You are often getting better EV from pushing in LP with 92o than calling someone elses all in with 88.

In the last tournament I won I pushed with 89o with a raise already in front of me because I really had no choice and managed to crack aces and treble up. The last satelite I played I regretted NOT pushing with 83o when there were a few limpers in front of me and I badly needed chips. I would have won the hand. I pushed on BigDragon's BB with 84o at the Fitz 270 last month and took his big blind. When you consider he needs something like Q7 maybe J5 or better to have a positive EV against an uuubershortstack's random pushing hand its absolutely the right move. There's a time when pushing with crap is absolutely right. If you walk into a big hand it may be embarassing but that's just the way it goes. You've got to do whatever you can to get chips. I'd much rather push with crap and hope to either take the blinds or suck out on someone than just blind off like a wimp. Look where pushing with 74o got Joe O'Neill in this years WSOP.

Fathead

I truely have been schooled.
I was in no way ridiculing moneymaker who the hell am i to riducule a person who took down 2.5 mill. i was mearly questioning his play but i've been shown the merits of such a play by people who know a lot more than i do which is what i wanted . the main reason i read this forum is to try and better my game. Todays lesson postion and picking your spots out way the cards your holding. ( in the given situation)

mewso

I'll re-iterate what I said. As far as I am aware Moneymaker did not move in until the flop came and gave him the flush draw. These events are reported differently on different sites.
I then commented on our speculation that it was pre-flop. Harrington's move if I remember correctly was what is called a squeeze play? The thinking behind this is far more to do with knowing your opponents and how good players play the button/small blind/big blind and I put alot more stock in Harrington's ability to make this move. Thats why it worked. Ariah had raised on the button and Harrington knew that he did not have to have a very strong hand to do so. Raymer knew this too and called with a weak Ace. Harrington knew that this combined with his tight image, the fact that Ariah would find it almost impossible to call with a marginal hand knowing Raymer is to act after him and thus fold, Raymer then is left with a very weak Ace and is good enough to throw it away. A risky but sound play.
I'm not saying Moneymaker is a bad player I'm saying I don't think he is a great player and I would cast doubt over his ability to be making this move for the right reasons other than a short stack. Going all-in on 2 cards short stacked is far different to reading your opponents correctly and making the right move. We all do it regularly. and I'm no WSOP champ.
My doubts about Moneymaker are more to do with calling with pocket 3s on a flop with 3 overcards in the latter stages of the WSOP when you are one of the chip leaders and the man you are calling is one of the few that can do serious damage to your stack. That and the so called bluff of the century are plays I would consider foolish. I still think hes a good player and he made some good plays from what I saw.

Hectorjelly

Im not saying Moneymaker is a great player, I actually havent seen most of the 2003 WSOP. The only reason I brought up Harrington was to show you that sometimes the circumstances dictate a move rather than your cards.

Hectorjelly

Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
[STT] $25 NL 3833998-83 Holdem No Limit 300/600
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Hand Start.
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 3 : Big Bucks! has $2,720
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 4 : ferluci has $2,200
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 6 : The Lodger has $3,550
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 7 : borntofli has $3,220
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has $1,960
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 9 : SRF has $4,350
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : borntofli is the dealer.
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : hectorjelly posted small blind.
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : SRF posted big blind.
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Game [83] started with 6 players.
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 12 00:02:03] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has 2s 7d
[Jul 12 00:02:06] : Big Bucks! folded.
[Jul 12 00:02:09] : ferluci folded.
[Jul 12 00:02:09] : The Lodger folded.
[Jul 12 00:02:17] : Stakes: 300/600 Current level: 7 Next level in: 8 min.
[Jul 12 00:02:20] : borntofli folded.
[Jul 12 00:02:21] : hectorjelly called 300 and raised 1,360 and is All-in
[Jul 12 00:02:25] : SRF called 1,360
[Jul 12 00:02:26] : Showdown!
[Jul 12 00:02:26] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has 2s 7d
[Jul 12 00:02:28] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has 2s 7d
[Jul 12 00:02:28] : Seat 9 : SRF has Ts Kd
[Jul 12 00:02:35] : Stakes: 300/600 Current level: 7 Next level in: 8 min.
[Jul 12 00:02:36] : Board cards [2d Kh Qd 6s 2h]
[Jul 12 00:02:36] : Seat 8 : hectorjelly has 2s 7d
[Jul 12 00:02:36] : hectorjelly has 3 of a Kind: 2s
[Jul 12 00:02:36] : Seat 9 : SRF has Ts Kd
[Jul 12 00:02:36] : SRF has Two Pair: Kings and 2s
[Jul 12 00:02:36] : hectorjelly wins 3,920 with 3 of a Kind: 2s
[Jul 12 00:02:41] : hectorjelly : justice
[Jul 12 00:02:46] : Hand is over.
[Jul 12 00:02:46] : Stakes: 300/600 Current level: 7 Next level in: 7 min.

mewso

Nice but didn't you want him to fold

Cianos

Yeah I think its actually more of a credit to the man than "embarassing". I mean, obviously he knows 72s isnt exactly a premium hand! He was willing to put it on the line when he had to, but happened to run into a good hand. If he was more worried about his fame or reputation, (Moneymaker was a large reason why middle America started fanatacising about poker - the fact that a normal guy won the WSOP - thus carrying a celebrity status and posture of being a great poker player), he would have shyed away from this opportunity. Most celebritys tend to try and preserve their image as meticulously as possible. Making this move could be comparable to a footballer taking a risky shot at goal from the halfway when he thinks goalie is off his line, but blundering and sending it miles wide!

Lafortezza

Someone post a link to that David Dunn clip where he trys to kick the ball from behind his standing foot......and falls on his snot.

Hectorjelly

Date / Time: 2005-07-12 14:02:00
Title: Paul Darden Eliminated
Log:

Paul Darden goes all-in preflop for his last $17,000 and is called by George Huber. Darden shows 8s-7s and Huber holds A-10. The flop comes 7-3-3, and Daren is the slight favorite. The turn is a 5, and Darden is looking good, but the river is an Ace and Darden is eliminated.

Iago

He's a bit mad in the head

Derek Dix Eliminated in 51st Place ($173,880)
Log: Derek Dix raises all-in preflop with As-Js, and is called by Mike Matusow with Ks-8h. Matusow notices his chances and says "I'm behind, I'm behind." The flop comes Qd-7d-Qc. Matusow: "I'm way behind." The turn is the Jh. Matusow: "I'm dead." The river is the Kd. Matusow: "I'm a superstar!" Matusow catches his King to beat out Dix's Jacks and Matusow is up to $2,500,000.


but he's got steel ones

Matusow More Than Mouth
Log: Farzad Bonyadi raised preflop and Mike Matusow re-raised, Bonyadi called. The flop came J-10-2, and again Matusow fired at the pot. The turn was a 5, and Matusow bet out $250,000. Bonyadi called that bet too. The river was the 5h, and Matusow moved all in. Bonyadi went into the tank, but eventually folded. Matusow showed 6-2 for a pair of two's and won the pot. Matusow is now up to $4,00,000, and Bonyadi has $1,300,000 left.