That glorious time of the year again....

Oriel

The good old 12th...
Oh yes, it's the day when half of Northern Ireland gets the Irish tricolours out, up the the top of the bonfire and give them a good old burning.
Folks, as one half of Northern Ireland's population returns from Oxyegen, prepare for the half getting the hell out of the country for the 12th...

Myself included. So, here, where's the best place to go for a night out in Donegal town then so?

S.

Töpher

Isn't today the 11th? Go down to Dublin for the night! Seeing as you're from there, whats the 13th generally like? Travelling up with about 300 other SHelbourne fans for the match, any insider tips on what it may be like?

Oriel

Well, aye, today's the 11th ok, but we like to get a good headstart on them so most people will be leaving today.

I'm heading to that match on the 13th too. I'm not sure what it's going to be like, but let's just say I'm glad I'm in the home team's area. At least it's not Linfield, the Glen's fans can be a good bunch...when they want to be...

Töpher

Linfield were alright when they came down here earlier in the year! Fingers crossed it passes off peacefully, it wasn't the Glens fans, so much as angry people on the streets seeing 8 or 9 buses full of Dubliners arriving (under escort, haha! ) that I was thinking about.

Dyr

this reminds me of a nordern lad i knew who came down from belfast to my mates to get away from the annual celebration of orange culture that is the 12th. Unbeknowst to him there was a summer community fesitval on down our way and our neighbour had a load of bunting up around his house. Annyways or nordie friend is outside catching some rays and our neighbour comes out and tries to exchange pleasantries regarding the clement weather. Nordie takes one look at the bunting and goes "f*** off ye orange bastard, im trying to get some peace from yee lot" then storms indoors. oh how we laughed

pickarooney

We went to Belfast by accident one July 12th. Completely oblivious to what date it was, we wondered what the big event in Dublin was that had so many cars heading in that direction. It was a grand, if quiet, weekend and we got a great deal on a hotel room

Kernel

sinecurea wrote:

Folks, as one half of Northern Ireland's population returns from Oxyegen, prepare for the half getting the hell out of the country for the 12th...

Stay and fight ye pussies, like us Dubs did in 1916.

Aye, fight and you may die. Run and you'll live -- at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... our freedom!

Sarky

Kernel wrote:

Stay and fight ye pussies, like us Dubs did in 1916.

You mean a half-arsed bunch of over-romanticised halfwits with all the military acumen of a stunned koala who were doomed to failure from day one?

arbeitsscheuer

Sarky wrote:

You mean a half-arsed bunch of over-romanticised halfwits with all the military acumen of a stunned koala who were doomed to failure from day one?

Rofl - F**kin wicked

Ah, it's funny cos it's true...

Gone West

Kernel wrote:

Aye, fight and you may die. Run and you'll live -- at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... our freedom!

Aw. Little guy has just watched braveheart, and has gotten some ideas. :rolleyes:

crazymonkey

Kernel wrote:

Stay and fight ye pussies, like us Dubs did in 1916.

QUOTE]

Actually it was mostly culchies that fought in 1916, and when it was all over, the queen of England came to Dublin, and u "Dubs" lined the streets with little union jacks to wellcome her, Hence the name Jackeen's

mycroft

Kernel wrote:

Stay and fight ye pussies, like us Dubs did in 1916.

Aye, fight and you may die. Run and you'll live -- at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... our freedom!

You fight, true we lied to our men and assured them the other columns would join our glorious struggle when in fact we were lying and no support was coming, and you were all going out for a "glorious" blood sacrifice.

Gosh I wonder how many more of your hero's who if they'd been told the truth would have said "sod this for a game of soliders"

But hey kernel republicans never let the truth get in the way of a ripping yarn.

Oh and sarky

Mr.Nice Guy

Sarky wrote:

You mean a half-arsed bunch of over-romanticised halfwits with all the military acumen of a stunned koala who were doomed to failure from day one?

What's your definition of failure? I don't think it failed. Judging by the fact I'm looked on as an Irishman and not a Brit.

Sarky

I'd define it as "not achieving anything even remotely like what one sets out to accomplish".

But hey, good for you. Keep reaching for the crock o' gold at the end of the rainbow.

BlitzKrieg

less of a failure and more of the British F*cking up

executing the rebel leaders (even those already dieing) in 1916 has got to be up prettyhigh in British political blunders...

Mr.Nice Guy

Sarky wrote:

I'd define it as "not achieving anything even remotely like what one sets out to accomplish".

In the words of Pearse: "We seem to have lost.We have not lost.To refuse to fight would have been to lose;to fight is to win.We have kept faith with the past,and handed on a tradition to the future."

I'd say it accomplished what it set out to do. Not totally, but for the most part.

Sarky wrote:

But hey, good for you. Keep reaching for the crock o' gold at the end of the rainbow.

Very mature comment. :rolleyes:

Just because I'm not ashamed of my country's history doesn't make me some 'Up the Ra' Oirishman....

mycroft

Sarky wrote:

I'd define it as "not achieving anything even remotely like what one sets out to accomplish".

But hey, good for you. Keep reaching for the crock o' gold at the end of the rainbow.

Now now be far they did manage to spill the blood of many an innocent irishman and woman. Glorious blood sacrifices can be considered marginal successes if theres a bit o claret spilled.

Mr.Nice Guy

mycroft wrote:

Now now be far they did manage to spill the blood of many an innocent irishman and woman.

Of course the British artillery had nothing to do with that...

mycroft

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

In the words of Pearse: "We seem to have lost.We have not lost.To refuse to fight would have been to lose;to fight is to win.We have kept faith with the past,and handed on a tradition to the future."

I'd say it accomplished what it set out to do. Not totally, but for the most part.

No er, to win is to win, to fight and lose is to lose.

Very mature comment. :rolleyes:

Y'know I've generally assuming that anyone who says something like "oh yeah thats real mature" is 12.

Just because I'm not ashamed of my country's history doesn't make me some 'Up the Ra' Oirishman....

Not ashamed does not = looking at things in an honest and intelligent manner.

mycroft

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Of course the British artillery had nothing to do with that...

Did the british start the fighting? Ah No.

Staging a revolution in the middle of the city center and then going "no fair they're shooting back" and then decrying the dead as totally the other guy's fault, now thats real mature.

Aw, missing politics mustache boy?

BlitzKrieg

ok...yes 1916 did achieve in changing the irish political agenda from home rule to full on republic, but it was'nt the rising that did it, but the British response.

the people of Dublin felt the British handled the situation quite well right up to the point, they dragged a dieing man of his bed and shot him...then the situation changed.


So to fight, yes by god its great...but for the love of all that is good, fight with some brains (if A.guns, B.manpower and C.support is lacking then DONT FIGHT (keyword) YET!!!)

Mr.Nice Guy

mycroft wrote:

No er, to win is to win, to fight and lose is to lose.

I think you misunderstood the comment by Pearse. Considering the event triggered a resurgence in Irish nationalism, I don't think they lost.

mycroft wrote:

Y'know I've generally assuming that anyone who says something like "oh yeah thats real mature" is 12.

You know what they say about people who assume...

mycroft wrote:

Not ashamed does not = looking at things in an honest and intelligent manner.

True.

Mr.Nice Guy

mycroft wrote:

Did the british start the fighting? Ah No.

Yes they did. They invaded Ireland and took the land off of the native Irish centuries beforehand.

mycroft wrote:

Staging a revolution in the middle of the city center and then going "no fair they're shooting back" and then decrying the dead as totally the other guy's fault, now thats real mature.

They shot back indiscriminately. That was unfair.

BEAT

I've never heard of this celebration before on july 12th,
can someone explain what it is, why they are celebraitng and who is celebrating exactly?
I am interested to hear more on this..thanks

mike65

All together now - "Fight The Power!".

Mike.

BlitzKrieg

talking about stabbed in the back?

how about the british fighting one war and actually getting irish support and then having a rebellion explode while your back is turned. (the Irish home rule party and irish volunteers fought on the side of the british in ww1, and it was also members of the irish volunteers who fought in 1916)

arbeitsscheuer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Of course the British artillery had nothing to do with that...

Eh... What do you expect?

In the middle of a continental war, Britain was stabbed in the back (literally) by people who were citizens of the Great Britain. That made them traitors. "Britain's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity" I believe the theory went.

That theory went alright - went down the toilet. The Brits, as it happens, had no problem with sailing the Helga up the Liffey and blowing the sh*t out of the GPO, Boland's Mills, Stephen's Green etc in order to end the uprising. Can you really blame em?

As somebody else on this thread pointed out, most Dubliners (and in all probability most Irish ppl) were against the Rebels. Over 70,000 Irishmen had volunteered to join the British Army in 1914 - a staggering figure given the revisionist history that is jammed down our throats.

As another person pointed out - the British government unwittingly shot itself in the foot by (rightly) executing the Rebel leaders. One of the greatest British political blunders of the twentieth century.

BlitzKrieg

hah beat you to it seb!

Mr.Nice Guy

SebtheBum wrote:

Eh... What do you expect?

In the middle of a continental war, Britain was stabbed in the back (literally) by people who were citizens of the Great Britain. That made them traitors. "Britain's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity" I believe the theory went.

That theory went alright - went down the toilet. The Brits, as it happens, had no problem with sailing the Helga up the Liffey and blowing the sh*t out of the GPO, Boland's Mills, Stephen's Green etc in order to end the uprising. Can you really blame em?

As somebody else on this thread pointed out, most Dubliners (and in all probability most Irish ppl) were against the Rebels. Over 70,000 Irishmen had volunteered to join the British Army in 1914 - a staggering figure given the revisionist history that is jammed down our throats.

As another person pointed out - the British government unwittingly shot itself in the foot by (rightly) executing the Rebel leaders. One of the greatest British political blunders of the twentieth century.

That doesn't excuse the British for being wreckless and costing the lives of Irish civilians. That's why the Rebels surrendered in the end. The loss of civilian lives.

The short duration of the Rising was another factor in its appeal to the Irish people. "Those brave boys" going up against the might of the British Empire.

I consider it the greatest moment in Irish history.

arbeitsscheuer

BlitzKrieg wrote:

hah beat you to it seb!

NUTS!!!! :mad:

*Shakes fist in BlitzKrieg's general direction*

You may have won this round oh Lightning-War-In-German one, but one day I shall wreak my revenge!!!! MWA-HA-HA-HA... *disappears in a cloud of smoke*


Ahem. What were we talking about?

Sarky

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

In the words of Pearse: "We seem to have lost.We have not lost.To refuse to fight would have been to lose;to fight is to win.We have kept faith with the past,and handed on a tradition to the future."

Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf wrote:

Their forces committed suicide by the hundreds.... The battle is very
fierce and God made us victorious. The fighting continues

No resemblance whatsoever, eh?

BlitzKrieg

the rebels surrendered because they were outgunned and alot of them were dieing (chrissakes Connolly couldnt bleedin walk) and then their fortifications were burning down (due to the helga) and they were mostly overrun and disorganised.


civilian casualities would have been the least of their worries.

arbeitsscheuer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I consider it the greatest moment in Irish history.

I am staggered.
Either you're knowledge of Irish History is truly abysmal, or Ireland has a truly cr*p history. And I know the latter isn't true, ergo the former must be.

I salute you, oh ignorant one!
*Bows*

Mr.Nice Guy

BlitzKrieg wrote:

the rebels surrendered because they were outgunned and alot of them were dieing (chrissakes Connolly couldnt bleedin walk) and then their fortifications were burning down (due to the helga) and they were mostly overrun and disorganised.

Pearse amde the call though and I doubt he expected a military success.

BlitzKrieg wrote:

civilian casualities would have been the least of their worries.

I disagree with that.

Sarky wrote:

No resemblance whatsoever, eh?

I don't think so. Please point out this resemblance.

Mr.Nice Guy

SebtheBum wrote:

I am staggered.
Either you're knowledge of Irish History is truly abysmal, or Ireland has a truly cr*p history. And I know the latter isn't true, ergo the former must be.

I salute you, oh ignorant one!
*Bows*

Don't label me ignorant. I am not. I'm just not of the Kevin Myers ilk who are disgusted by their own country's history.

I'm proud of mine. It has nothing to do with ignorance.

arbeitsscheuer

Eh, MNG, if avoiding civilian casualties were on their list of priorities, don't you think they would've avoided attempting the Rising completely? Or at the very least, fortified themselves in areas were civilian casualties would be kept to a minimum?

Come on, they knew what they were doing, and they knew it would result in civilian casualties. Who are you kidding?

BlitzKrieg

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Pearse amde the call though and I doubt he expected a military success.

in reply

But the influence of blood sacrifice ideas on the leaders of the Rising can easily be overstated. Pearse was not the driving force behind it, but rather Thomas Clarke and Sean MacDermott. Both were traditional republicans – hardheaded, practical, ruthless, committed to the use of force to gain Irish independence, and convinced that war had provided them with a unique opportunity to achieve this goal. The plans which the Military Council prepared in 1915 indicate the scale of the operations which it was anticipating and the extent of its ambitions. With substantial German help, the outcome it sought and prepared for was that British military units in Ireland would be crushed and the episode culminate, not in their martyrdom, but in a rebel victory march
Events did not develop as they had hoped. At the end of the Rising, when the leaders faced certain defeat, the terms that they sought to negotiate with Britain were that they themselves would be executed and their followers allowed to go free. In practice, their blood sacrifice was not therefore a strategy calculated long in advance, but a tactic hastily improvised. It was designed, not to redeem Ireland, but to perform the practical task of saving the lives of their men

arbeitsscheuer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

They invaded Ireland and took the land off of the native Irish centuries beforehand..

Just thought I'd point out that this is an inaccurate and, yes, ignorant statement.

The English (Normans) were invited by the Irish King of Leinster Dermot MacMurrough to help him fight his bitter enemy Tiernan O'Rourke. When the Norman Knight and Nobleman Richard FitzGilbert de Clare (Strongbow - my ancestor btw) married MacMurrough's daughter Aoife, he became the heir to the kingdom.

In 1171, MacMurrough died, and the Kingdom of Leinster was Strongbow's.

So you see? The Anglo-Norman claim on Irish soil is as strong as yours - going by 9 centuries. Besides, you talk about the native Irish as if they were homogenous - MacMurrough (and many other Chieftains like him) hated other "Irish" warlords far more than their neighbours from Sasana.

Sarky

So, in short, it's all the Dubs' faults anyway. Bloody west brits...

BlitzKrieg

the historians are out in force today!! grrrowl

Mr.Nice Guy

SebtheBum wrote:

Eh, MNG, if avoiding civilian casualties were on their list of priorities, don't you think they would've avoided attempting the Rising completely? Or at the very least, fortified themselves in areas were civilian casualties would be kept to a minimum?

Come on, they knew what they were doing, and they knew it would result in civilian casualties. Who are you kidding?

The Rising was about taking a stand. Irishmen in British uniforms were doing it overseas already. The Rising was not about inflicting civilian casualties.

BlitzKrieg,

Pearse had believed in blood sacrifice all his life and was fascinated by the thought of dying for Ireland.

Sebthebum wrote:

Just thought I'd point out that this is an inaccurate and, yes, ignorant statement.

The English (Normans) were invited by the Irish King of Leinster Dermot MacMurrough to help him fight his bitter enemy Tiernan O'Rourke. When the Norman Knight and Nobleman Richard FitzGilbert de Clare (Strongbow - my ancestor btw) married MacMurrough's daughter Aoife, he became the heir to the kingdom

Sorry Seb but the ignorance is on your part. I never mentioned the Normans. I'm well aware they became "more Irish than the Irish themselves".

I was actually referring to events in the 16th century which would lead to the flight of the Earls and the Ulster Plantations.

BlitzKrieg

BlitzKrieg,

Pearse had believed in blood sacrifice all his life and was fascinated by the thought of dying for Ireland.

reality and desire tend to differ alot
so
again...

In practice, their blood sacrifice was not therefore a strategy calculated long in advance, but a tactic hastily improvised. It was designed, not to redeem Ireland, but to perform the practical task of saving the lives of their men

Mr.Nice Guy

BlitzKrieg,

I dont think that explains Pearse though. This is a man who when a child told his family stories of how he would be stretched out on a rack and how he would die for Ireland.

A man who was fascianted by the death of Jesus and Cuchulainn.

Read his graveside oration for O'Donovan Rossa: "Life springs from death. And from the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations".

Also, as Ruth Dudley Edwards points out, unlike the others, Pearse had left a whole body of literature behind him as if in preparation for the moment when he would die.

Are you aware that when the British were about to execute the rebels, Pearse pleaded with the British to spare the others and to kill him alone?

I have read on Pearse quite a bit and find him a fascinating character and there's no doubt in my mind that he sought to be a martyr just like men such as Robert Emmet. Indeed, Pearse moved his school from St. Enda's to The Hermitage which is where Robert Emmet once lived and Pearse wrote how he could feel his presence.

Pearse believed in blood sacrifice since he was a young boy and I challenge you to provide me information which states otherwise besides the piece you quote which you do not even reference. Where is that from?

Sarky

All that proves is that Pearse was nuts. He must have considered himself so lucky to get captured and sentenced to death. Bloody attention whore.

Mr.Nice Guy

Sarky wrote:

All that proves is that Pearse was nuts.

I'm not going to argue otherwise.

BlitzKrieg

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Don't label me ignorant. I am not. I'm just not of the Kevin Myers ilk who are disgusted by their own country's history.

I'm proud of mine. It has nothing to do with ignorance.

I'm very proud of irish history, i think we have one of the most amazing histories in the world, and its people like you who ruin it.

You know why? Irish history feels so real compared to other nations. I love irish history because there are mistakes and there are failures,it makes it more powerful.


go to american history they glorify their civil war into this great fight for freedom of slavery. Mention the Irish civil war, everyone shuffles their feet and feel ashamed.

So glorifying 1916 into this heroic moment destroys irish history for me. Its turning it into the Alamo or charge of the light brigade.

Mr.Nice Guy

BlitzKrieg wrote:

I'm very proud of irish history, i think we have one of the most amazing histories in the world, and its people like you who ruin it.

You know why? Irish history feels so real compared to other nations. I love irish history because there are mistakes and there are failures,it makes it more powerful.


go to american history they glorify their civil war into this great fight for freedom of slavery. Mention the Irish civil war, everyone shuffles their feet and feel ashamed.

So glorifying 1916 into this heroic moment destroys irish history for me. Its turning it into the Alamo or charge of the light brigade.

I tend to think some people wish to make us feel ashamed of our hsitory. Look at WW2. It's as if we Irish aren't allowed celebrate the Allied victory like other countries as we were not involved directly.

I tend to think some people also allow the actions of the Provisional IRA to tarnish the actions of the IRB/IRA.

Just my opinion.

muckwarrior

SebtheBum wrote:

Strongbow - my ancestor btw

Well that explains your viewpoint.
How the brits came to be here in the first place isn't important. The fact that they tortured and suppressed us for hundreds of years is! It's very easy to forget this now that we're all living comfy lives, but my great granny told me stories of the black & tans beating the **** out of her brothers and then pissing on her and her sisters. They lived in terror of the British occupiers, and for good reason too.
Thousands of people gave their lives over the centuries in a bid to free their country. And for what? For a shower of little west brit tossers to ridicule them! But I guess it doesn’t make much difference to you since it's likely that it was your ancestors doing the oppressing!

Anyway this just about sums up my views on the subject.

BlitzKrieg

Pearse believed in blood sacrifice since he was a young boy and I challenge you to provide me information which states otherwise besides the piece you quote which you do not even reference. Where is that from?

i never denied he did, but it is not the prevailing or central thought of the rising, Pearse did believe in a blood sacrifice i will not deny this. But not everyone did and it was not the reason they surrendered nor was it the goal of the rising (it became the goal when everything fell apart)

the source is the bbc history site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterrising/index.shtml if your gonna scream that its bias due to being English i can go grab you any book on the rising and it will say the same thing.

BlitzKrieg

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I tend to think some people wish to make us feel ashamed of our hsitory. Look at WW2. It's as if we Irish aren't allowed celebrate the Allied victory like other countries as we were not involved directly.

I tend to think some people also allow the actions of the Provisional IRA to tarnish the actions of the IRB/IRA.

Just my opinion.

ww2 ireland history is one of my favourite parts of history actually...we should be more proud of our actions in being neutral then ashamed in becoming dependent on britain once again. Also you cant help but smile at many of the little stories (DeValera p*ssing of the american foriegn diplomat and so on)

BlitzKrieg

Anyway this just about sums up my views on the subject.

dear god that song is awful! who is singing it?