Making those darn flush draw merchants pay !

Culchie

These fellahs have busted me out of a good few tourneys lately, so I'm seeking the advice of the boardies knowledge if I'm just in bad luck, or should I play it another way.

I'll take an example from a small mtt last night, as it is indicative of most of the recent sad stories (including fitz €270, I flopped a set)

12 left in MTT, top 5 get paid, in about 6/7th position on 4000 chips.
Blinds 150/300.
I was quietly confident I would make the money.

Folded to me on the button, I've Q 6 . 450 chips would be nice, so I attempt to steal, so I raise to 900, SB folds, BB calls ... fair enough. (BB identical stack size)

Flop comes Q 6 2 (2 hearts) .... nice bonus

Villian bets in to me with bet of 800, methinks flush draw merchant, so I put him all in with my 2 pair Q6's.

He calls holding A 2 hearts ...hmmm ... knew what was coming next, heart falls on the river to bust me out.

Did I make the right play, after his bet into me, I was positive he was on the flush draw.

I'm thinking to myself, if I had just called his bet, and the turn missed (3/1), he'd have to either try again with another semi bluff bet on another 3/1, or he could check, and I'd put him all in so he'd have to take a 3/1 chance again.

The way I played it, he didn't have to make that difficult choice, as that decision was already made, as he took his 2/1 gamble and called my all-in.

So, should I just called his flush draw bet after the flop (3/1 in my favour), and make him go again after the turn missed, or did I do right putting him all-in?

karlh

Culchie wrote:

I'm thinking to myself, if I had just called his bet, and the turn missed (3/1), he'd have to either try again with another semi bluff bet on another 3/1, or he could check, and I'd put him all in so he'd have to take a 3/1 chance

i asked the same question about a hand in the fitz cash game and the simple answer is no.

as a stand alone hand, you were ahead and you got outdrawn. giving the guy a free card is not the answer. if he's happy to risk his chips on a flush draw, i'm willing to let him try to outdraw me. +EV baby!

however, the fact you are in a tourney and just outside the money, i don't think getting any chips in the middle with Q6o is a good idea. i'm always very conscious of getting involved with anything but quality hands at this stage...

ollyk1

Hey Culchie,

He probably thought rightly that any A or 2 would do him as well giving him an extra 5 outs. 14 outs plus a possiblity you were on the rob, you did start out that way after all make this not a bad call at all imho. Plus it was costing him 2,300 to win 8150 at the end. You just didn't have enough to make a guy willing to gamble with a flush draw walk away - with the extra outs he's making a big mistake if he doesn't call.


It's a long way to go in the tournie so a double up here sets him up for a run at the top spot.

You have to make him pay to get there and you did that I don't know if there was anything you could have done to make him fold.

Culchie

Hi,

I'm not doubting his call at that stage, he had committed alot of chips at that stage.

(I think his defence of blinds is open to debate with A2, because I am a rock and hadn't robbed previously )

I got nice flop, so I'm questioning my play really.


I flopped a set of Q's in the €270 fitz game recently, and a similar play was made on me by guy who had defended his blinds with A4 suited when I raised with the pocket Q's.
He bet into me as well on a flush draw, I went all in, he called aand caught his flush.

ollyk1

We're all rocks really!!

I guess the mistake was raising this guys BB - he obviously is a defender of his BB and sometimes you just have to accept that. He did pot commit himself by betting into you. I suppose he wanted to do that so that you knew he was serious and therefore if you'd missed or been bluffing you'd have to walk away and he'd win a nice pot. On the other hand sometimes opponents don't put that much thought into it and see a pair of twos and bet... :rolleyes:

In the €270 game you were unlucky you can't question your play just because you were unlucky - now just tell me how do you get these guys to call your raises with QQ?? (apart from when they hold AA and KK of course!! )

Hectorjelly

ollyk1 wrote:

We're all rocks really!!

I guess the mistake was raising this guys BB -

Thats not a mistake

impr0v

The flush draw merchants are everywhere

Single-Table Tournament
[STT] $25 NL 3792811-39 Holdem No Limit 100/200
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Hand Start.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 2 : impr0v has $1,890
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 3 : kgb1105 has $1,740
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 4 : GeorgeJung has $4,720
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 5 : ghth has $3,190
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 7 : waspsfan has $2,690
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 9 : bonesstl has $3,770
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : kgb1105 is the dealer.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : GeorgeJung posted small blind.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : ghth posted big blind.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:00:05] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:08] : waspsfan called 200
[Jul 7 23:00:11] : bonesstl called 200 and raised 200
[Jul 7 23:00:21] : impr0v called 400
[Jul 7 23:00:23] : kgb1105 called 400
[Jul 7 23:00:23] : GeorgeJung folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:25] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:27] : ghth folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:29] : waspsfan called 200
[Jul 7 23:00:29] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 7 23:00:29] : Board cards [4d Ks 5s]
[Jul 7 23:00:33] : waspsfan checked.
[Jul 7 23:00:35] : bonesstl checked.
[Jul 7 23:00:43] : impr0v bet 800
[Jul 7 23:00:44] : kgb1105 folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:44] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:51] : waspsfan called 800 and raised 1,490 and is All-in
[Jul 7 23:00:52] : bonesstl folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : impr0v called 690 and is All-in
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : Showdown!
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:00:57] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:00:57] : Seat 7 : waspsfan has 6s As
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Board cards [4d Ks 5s 7s Kd]
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Seat 7 : waspsfan has 6s As
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : waspsfan has Flush AK765
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : impr0v has Four of a kind: Kings
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : impr0v wins 4,880 with Four of a kind: Kings
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 4 min.
[Jul 7 23:01:12] : Hand is over.

Outdrawn on the turn and rescued by the river. I knocked him out with AK about 4 hands later when he pushed with AQ and nothing hit, he said 'I HATE THIS ****ING GAME'.

Culchie

Hectorjelly wrote:

Thats not a mistake

Thanks HJ

A steal is a steal is a steal.

So, was I right to push him for all his chips after the top 2 pair flopped, or should I have just called first, and then let him make a 3/1 move?

ollyk1

I meant maybe it was a mistake in that he hit the flop and you got unlucky. I don't think you did anything wrong you just got unlucky and thats poker.

I wasn't calling it a bad play - a steal especially short handed has to be done. But that's why I was laughing at calling yourself a rock - people aren't going to believe so much when you are playing six handed so it makes him more likely to call the all-in. Especially online where the embaressment factor of calling with a pair of twos isn't that high. How much was the prize fund?

NickyOD

His play wasn't bad at all. you were only about 53/47 favourite after the flop. since he had 14 outs.

Waylander

Does 14 outs not make the other player a favourite? 14 * 4 = 56% which would make it 56:44 in the other players favour.

NickyOD

Waylander wrote:

Does 14 outs not make the other player a favourite? 14 * 4 = 56% which would make it 56:44 in the other players favour.

No.

Culchie

Woah ....

I'm not questioning my opponents play at all post flop.

I'm asking did I play my hand right?

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

Woah ....

I'm not questioning my opponents play at all post flop.

I'm asking did I play my hand right?

yes, perfectly

Iago

impr0v wrote:

The flush draw merchants are everywhere

Single-Table Tournament
[STT] $25 NL 3792811-39 Holdem No Limit 100/200
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Hand Start.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 2 : impr0v has $1,890
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 3 : kgb1105 has $1,740
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 4 : GeorgeJung has $4,720
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 5 : ghth has $3,190
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 7 : waspsfan has $2,690
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 9 : bonesstl has $3,770
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : kgb1105 is the dealer.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : GeorgeJung posted small blind.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : ghth posted big blind.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 7 23:00:04] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:00:05] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:08] : waspsfan called 200
[Jul 7 23:00:11] : bonesstl called 200 and raised 200
[Jul 7 23:00:21] : impr0v called 400
[Jul 7 23:00:23] : kgb1105 called 400
[Jul 7 23:00:23] : GeorgeJung folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:25] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:27] : ghth folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:29] : waspsfan called 200
[Jul 7 23:00:29] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 7 23:00:29] : Board cards [4d Ks 5s]
[Jul 7 23:00:33] : waspsfan checked.
[Jul 7 23:00:35] : bonesstl checked.
[Jul 7 23:00:43] : impr0v bet 800
[Jul 7 23:00:44] : kgb1105 folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:44] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:51] : waspsfan called 800 and raised 1,490 and is All-in
[Jul 7 23:00:52] : bonesstl folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : impr0v called 690 and is All-in
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : Showdown!
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:00:57] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:00:57] : Seat 7 : waspsfan has 6s As
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Board cards [4d Ks 5s 7s Kd]
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Seat 7 : waspsfan has 6s As
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : waspsfan has Flush AK765
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Seat 2 : impr0v has Kc Kh
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : impr0v has Four of a kind: Kings
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : impr0v wins 4,880 with Four of a kind: Kings
[Jul 7 23:01:04] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 4 min.
[Jul 7 23:01:12] : Hand is over.

Outdrawn on the turn and rescued by the river. I knocked him out with AK about 4 hands later when he pushed with AQ and nothing hit, he said 'I HATE THIS ****ING GAME'.

waspsfan and georgejung will chase anything all the way...

I was on a couple of tables with you yesterday impr0v, and those guys as well. georgejung in particular I remember from previous tables.

Really though VC is full of them, for the most part I'm grateful, but at the time you want to kick the screen over!

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

His play wasn't bad at all. you were only about 53/47 favourite after the flop. since he had 14 outs.

His opponents play was terrible. The call at the end was mandatory.

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

waspsfan and georgejung will chase anything all the way...

I was on a couple of tables with you yesterday impr0v, and those guys as well. georgejung in particular I remember from previous tables.

Really though VC is full of them, for the most part I'm grateful, but at the time you want to kick the screen over!

George is quite good in my experience. One of the best at that level.

Iago

no doubting he can play, but I've noticed that he tends to chase a lot...

gets a bit emotional at times as well. One hand yesterday he filled a higher flush on the river than another player and had a lengthly speech about it, was funny at the time, maybe because I wasn't the other player

I have to say hector that with the exception of a few real stick out players, I find it hard to rate a lot of players at the $25 level...maybe it's a limitation on my part but there are few players that really stick out.

Mind you, with the ropey play I've been exhibiting over the last couple of weeks I'm sure any notes on me would make interesting reading. Should work in my advantage over time, if I can manage to remain patient that is!

fixer

impr0v wrote:

The flush draw merchants are everywhere

[Jul 7 23:00:29] : Board cards [4d Ks 5s]
[Jul 7 23:00:33] : waspsfan checked.
[Jul 7 23:00:35] : bonesstl checked.
[Jul 7 23:00:43] : impr0v bet 800
[Jul 7 23:00:44] : kgb1105 folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:44] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Next level in: 5 min.
[Jul 7 23:00:51] : waspsfan called 800 and raised 1,490 and is All-in
[Jul 7 23:00:52] : bonesstl folded.
[Jul 7 23:00:54] : impr0v called 690 and is All-in

you bet 800 into a pot of 1800. isn't that giving a flush draw odds to call? You were trying to milk your set and someone took you up on the offer. That's poker.

Hectorjelly

fixer wrote:

you bet 800 into a pot of 1800. isn't that giving a flush draw odds to call? You were trying to milk your set and someone took you up on the offer. That's poker.

Not really. The other guy had to effectively call 1.5k off because mprov isnt folding for his last 700.

califano

Would you have laid this down or played it differently?. I thought Seleda had 2 pair or 10 with a lower kicker.

Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
MTT $7,500 Rebuy GF
Guar't'tdTable 14 3802419-7 Holdem No Limit 20/40
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Hand Start.
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 1 : bnoseworthy has $2,000
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 2 : blackjack66 has $1,980
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 3 : tookka has $1,940
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 4 : seleda has $2,100
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 5 : Pdusty has $1,940
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 6 : rounders123 has $2,340
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 7 : dustdevil has $1,940
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 8 : missthree has $1,760
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 9 : tgesse has $2,000
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : dustdevil is the dealer.
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : missthree posted small blind.
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : tgesse posted big blind.
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Game [7] started with 9 players.
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 8 21:54:12] : Seat 6 : rounders123 has Ac Td
[Jul 8 21:54:13] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 47 min. Players : 173
[Jul 8 21:54:15] : bnoseworthy called 40
[Jul 8 21:54:21] : blackjack66 folded.
[Jul 8 21:54:23] : tookka folded.
[Jul 8 21:54:24] : seleda called 40
[Jul 8 21:54:25] : Pdusty called 40
[Jul 8 21:54:27] : rounders123 called 40
[Jul 8 21:54:27] : dustdevil folded.
[Jul 8 21:54:27] : missthree called 20
[Jul 8 21:54:33] : tgesse checked.
[Jul 8 21:54:33] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 8 21:54:33] : Board cards [Kd Ts Tc]
[Jul 8 21:54:33] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 47 min. Players : 173
[Jul 8 21:54:39] : missthree checked.
[Jul 8 21:54:40] : tgesse checked.
[Jul 8 21:54:40] : bnoseworthy checked.
[Jul 8 21:54:43] : seleda checked.
[Jul 8 21:54:48] : Pdusty folded.
[Jul 8 21:54:50] : rounders123 checked.
[Jul 8 21:54:50] : Dealing turn.
[Jul 8 21:54:50] : Board cards [Kd Ts Tc 2h]
[Jul 8 21:54:52] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Level up in: 5 min. Break in: 46 min. Players : 173
[Jul 8 21:54:53] : missthree bet 160
[Jul 8 21:54:56] : tgesse folded.
[Jul 8 21:55:01] : bnoseworthy folded.
[Jul 8 21:55:05] : seleda called 160
[Jul 8 21:55:10] : rounders123 called 160
[Jul 8 21:55:11] : Dealing river.
[Jul 8 21:55:11] : Board cards [Kd Ts Tc 2h 6d]
[Jul 8 21:55:11] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Level up in: 5 min. Break in: 46 min. Players : 173
[Jul 8 21:55:16] : missthree bet 160
[Jul 8 21:55:20] : seleda called 160 and raised 640
[Jul 8 21:55:27] : rounders123 called 800 and raised 1,340 and is All-in
[Jul 8 21:55:29] : missthree folded.
[Jul 8 21:55:31] : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Level up in: 5 min. Break in: 46 min. Players : 173
[Jul 8 21:55:37] : seleda called 1,100 and is All-in
[Jul 8 21:55:38] : Showdown!
[Jul 8 21:55:38] : Seat 6 : rounders123 has Ac Td
[Jul 8 21:55:40] : Seat 6 : rounders123 has Ac Td
[Jul 8 21:55:40] : rounders123 has 3 of a Kind: 10s
[Jul 8 21:55:40] : Seat 4 : seleda has 6c 6s
[Jul 8 21:55:40] : seleda has Full House : 6s full of 10s
[Jul 8 21:55:40] : seleda wins 4,680 with Full House : 6s full of 10s
[Jul 8 21:56:00] : Hand is over.

Hectorjelly

Sound Similar? This is from David Williams Blog.

This sucks. This is basically my first time busting out of the big one. Last year hurt alot, but in a different way. There was this 3.5M coushin to soften the blow. I am very happy with my play today. I will tell my final hand, and then I am off to sulk. I will write more later.

I go to dinner with 17500 feeling comfortable. I am above average and I have a good table. The first hand back, I am on the button with blinds at 150/300 with 25 ante. It folds to me and I raise to 850 with 9d4d. Not a very good hand, but I am playing position and just trying to pick up the blinds and antes. The SB folds and the BB calls. The flop is Jc9s4c. He checks and I bet 2500. He raises to 7500 and I go all in for about 9k more. He shrugs and calls with Ac2c, a flush draw. I am ahead for now, and if this holds up I will be in fantastic shape with about 35k. The turn is the 7c and I need help. The river misses me and I am out. I down, but not miserable. Like I said yesterday; if I do my best, and I am happy with my play, then I can't be too upset when I am out. I put my money in as a favorite, and that's all you can do in poker.

Hectorjelly

rounders123 wrote:

Would you have laid this down or played it differently?. I thought Seleda had 2 pair or 10 with a lower kicker.

Bet the flop, bet the turn and fold the river.

califano

Hectorjelly wrote:

Bet the flop, bet the turn and fold the river.

Yeah i suppose youre right and maybe in a freezeout i might have but this was a rebuy and some of these players go crazy with just top pair especially near the start of a tournie. Im not Alan Betson yet!

Culchie

Hectorjelly wrote:

Sound Similar? This is from David Williams Blog.

This sucks. This is basically my first time busting out of the big one. Last year hurt alot, but in a different way. There was this 3.5M coushin to soften the blow. I am very happy with my play today. I will tell my final hand, and then I am off to sulk. I will write more later.

I go to dinner with 17500 feeling comfortable. I am above average and I have a good table. The first hand back, I am on the button with blinds at 150/300 with 25 ante. It folds to me and I raise to 850 with 9d4d. Not a very good hand, but I am playing position and just trying to pick up the blinds and antes. The SB folds and the BB calls. The flop is Jc9s4c. He checks and I bet 2500. He raises to 7500 and I go all in for about 9k more. He shrugs and calls with Ac2c, a flush draw. I am ahead for now, and if this holds up I will be in fantastic shape with about 35k. The turn is the 7c and I need help. The river misses me and I am out. I down, but not miserable. Like I said yesterday; if I do my best, and I am happy with my play, then I can't be too upset when I am out. I put my money in as a favorite, and that's all you can do in poker.

ahh, HJ, that was nice ... you do have feelings.

Flush Draw Merchants beware !