Karma: Informational poll...

DeVore · 02-09-2001 10:08pm #1

We're going to hold a poll on the whole karma system.

This isnt a binding vote, its to allow you guys to have a say about what you think should be done (if anything).

Discuss it here but its the votes I'll be paying attention to.

if its 100% against I'm not saying we're changing it (though obviously I'd have to take that into consideration).

anyway, the vote will run for a few weeks to let everyone see it.

Go here and have your say:
http://www.boards.ie/cgi-bin/bulletin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro

Later,
DeV.

chernobyl · 02-09-2001 10:22pm

Karma has even been trouble for the ppl it is supposed to help.

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

logic1 · 03-09-2001 10:48am

I vote for this poll to be abolished.

.logic.

_CreeD_ · 03-09-2001 12:03pm

I think it's a good idea that has been badly implemented by some moderators. Some of the reasons it's been given/taken away are ridiculous.
Basically it's a kiddies playground for Mods, not a reflection of someone's contributions (or lack thereof) to the community.

[This message has been edited by _CreeD_ (edited 03-09-2001).]

SHADOW · 03-09-2001 12:06pm

While I voted that it should stay, and I think it should, I actually (after thinking about it a bit more) reckon that mods should be restricted to their own boards.

That is after all their area of responsibility.

N

If the bottom falls out of your world, drink Andrews and the world will fall out of your bottom!!
games?

Bard · 03-09-2001 12:29pm

Ok- on the issue of mod's only awarding it on their own boards... - why should they? Mods only MODERATE their own boards - karma has nothing to do with this. Karma is not "moderating".

Anyway- I voted for the remaining of the status quo. Shoot the begrudgers.

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

deRanged · 03-09-2001 12:38pm

Keep the karma. It is very funny, what is's not is a guide to the worth of a post/poster.
It's fun for mods. They get drunk and give bad karma, they get over excited and give negative karma, they get lonely and give good karma. It keeps them happy, bless 'em.
There's few things funnier than a poster complaining about their negative karma, that keeps most posters entertained & amused.
So all in all it's keeping everyone happy. Hurray for karma.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus · 03-09-2001 2:24pm

Karma has little to do with how people view you in the community- their first action isn't to note your karma but what you say.

So keep the current system, it's worked fine so far- especially now it corrects over time.

Oh, and round up the dissenters give them a fair (show)-trial and execute them.

Occy

Trojan · 03-09-2001 4:24pm

Originally posted by Bob the Unlucky Octopus:
Karma has little to do with how people view you in the community- their first action isn't to note your karma but what you say.

So why keep it?

Originally posted by Bob the Unlucky Octopus:

So keep the current system, it's worked fine so far- especially now it corrects over time.

rotflmbo... you say that as if you truly believed it...

btw you contradicted yourself within that one sentence...

Originally posted by Bob the Unlucky Octopus:

Oh, and round up the dissenters give them a fair (show)-trial and execute them.

Occy

Nuke it. It sucks, and has caused nothing but hassle. Nothing positive has come of it, and it is unfair to the real-world concept of karma to maintain this joke.

Al.

[edit]typo[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Trojan (edited 03-09-2001).]

logic1 · 03-09-2001 4:31pm

Wow... who's an unhappy camper....

If I give you some positive Karma will it cheer you up?

.logic.

azezil · 03-09-2001 4:40pm

I think it was a good idea but mistakes seem all too easily made ... the mod's are just not ready for that kind of responsibility

ha ha LOL

"just because you're not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after you!"

Sprocket · 03-09-2001 5:45pm

Originally posted by Bard:
Ok- on the issue of mod's only awarding it on their own boards... - why should they? Mods only MODERATE their own boards - karma has nothing to do with this. Karma is not "moderating".

Anyway- I voted for the remaining of the status quo. Shoot the begrudgers.

LOL !! I have never seen such a vain attempt in someone trying to keep their small bit of power they have!!

I think Shadow said it best when he said "that mods should be restricted to their own boards.
That is after all their area of responsibility."

Then i laughed even more when Bard said "karma has nothing to do with this. Karma is not "moderating"
Of Course it is !!! Thats why mods can issue it !

In my opinion, you are the biggest trouble maker when it comes to giving out Karma Bard, and I think the sooner you are restricted to only moderating the Irish Board, and therefore reducing your ability to your board the better. Since only a few post there, you can't go on your mad power trip and thinking your super important!!

Lets face it Bard, you fear losing the one bit of influence you have on other people, and it scares you.

And rightly so !

Regards,

Sprocket McRocket

[This message has been edited by Sprocket (edited 03-09-2001).]

LegacyUser · 03-09-2001 5:53pm

Originally posted by Bard:
Ok- on the issue of mod's only awarding it on their own boards... - why should they? Mods only MODERATE their own boards - karma has nothing to do with this. Karma is not "moderating".

Anyway- I voted for the remaining of the status quo. Shoot the begrudgers.

OMG how silly can that be. If any thing Bard it is the higest form of us been Mods as we are the one's who give the Karma so we can lead to things happenin such as Whitelancer gettin 12 clicked its mods like yourself that make this Karma system NOT work.

RopeDrink · 03-09-2001 6:08pm

That's true to some extent. On many of these boards, all it takes is a few negative karma points, and people will assume that person is a class "A" muppet, whereas a person with a bit of positive karma may be regarded as a saint...

Karma is a very delicate option, and it's very important to keep an eye on how it's being used.

For example - Say a moderator of one board could apply a change in karma to a user of another board, merely for cracking a joke he liked in the Humour board (Which he may not be a moderator for), or a Food and Drink Board MOD could just as easily alter karma on a poster on the CS board for disliking something that poster said in regards to something he may / may not know about (ie. Counter-Strike itself...)

They were just examples (And quite unclear ones at that, sorry).

My main point is - If they are a Moderator of one board, then they have responsibility over that board, rather than the other ones, therefor shouldn't be altering karma on posters in any other boards bar their own.

[VAR]-RopeDrink***** was killed by IOL NoLimits with Headshot from Disconnect

Bard · 03-09-2001 6:28pm

Originally posted by Sprocket:

In my opinion, you are the biggest trouble maker when it comes to giving out Karma Bard, and I think the sooner you are restricted to only moderating the Irish Board, and therefore reducing your ability to your board the better. Since only a few post there, you can't go on your mad power trip and thinking your super important!!

Er... what? Biggest trouble maker when it comes to giving out karma?... you can't be serious

- I haven't used the karma feature much - probably having given it out 5 or 6 times in total.

And this, Sprocket, I note - you say in your first post on the Boards. You must either have done a lot of reading before making the post or be someone else posting under a pseudonym.

Originally posted by Sprocket:

Lets face it Bard, you fear losing the one bit of influence you have on other people, and it scares you.

Complete crap. I don't see karma as an 'influence on other people' and couldn't care less how much influence I have on anyone, thanks.

Karma is a harmless little extra feature on the site and I personally couldn't care less whether it stays or goes. I voted for it to stay simply because it IS harmless and it's more work now for the admins to remove it than to leave the status quo.

Now I still maintain that technically Karma isn't 'moderating' as such, in that it doesn't change the contents of anybody's posts and doesnt really affect them other than to praise or berate them for their actions.

Saying "well done, keep it up" or "you're a twit, stop that" is not 'moderating' in the strictest sense - it's just expressing an opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but users cannot be automatically 12-clicked at a certain level of karma, right?

It's not a form of moderating and the only harm it causes is the silly debates like this one and the "so-and-so gave me this karma and I think that's unfair" rants.

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 03-09-2001).]

Belisarius · 03-09-2001 7:07pm

Well to add my voice to the choir , Karma is pretty much a waste of time , made moreso from its use by Some mods in particular ,but Its a fair concept , And theyre should be some scaling of chastisement for the Muppets , Restricting Moderators to thier own boards is a must , also im not sure if its theyre or not ,but there should prolly be an option for Karma revoking , I mean no mods word should be gospel , and also , just scrap the positive karma , However its implimented it just whiffs of Sicophantism ihmo

The Man From Delmonte , He Say "Yes"

bubbles · 03-09-2001 7:48pm

Sprocket is me btw (was sorting out the password for this nick at the time)

Just as well you don't care about how much influence you have over other people Bard, because hopfully soon it will be virtually nill.

Back to the good old days.

<-- Token smiley

Hobbes · 03-09-2001 7:54pm

Originally posted by RopeDrink:
or a Food and Drink Board MOD could just as easily alter karma on a poster on the CS board for disliking something that poster said in regards to something he may / may not know about (ie. Counter-Strike itself...)

In which point he shouldn't give you the karma point. However if you were say to post something which wouldn't fly on any board I don't see a problem with any moderator dishing out a karma point.

FFS... why are we having this discussion again?

Look even if you restrict a moderator to put Karma points on thier own board it's going to be mean dick unless you never post to thier boards. Lets say you annoy Castor Troy (who would probably hunt you down and kill you anway). He can't give you that -1 karma point on CounterStrike Forum for saying AP's are bad.. so he goes to his own forum, does a search for your name and gives you the -1 karma point there with the reason on the CS board.

...

Stupid Karma comments aside I find the Karma thingy works fine. If you are going to change it, remove it totally from view from the users (even on posts) and let the moderators dish out the karma.

Now I'm sure I'm going to hear some crybaby whine about "My rights to know what you say about you"... well tough, it would make it no different then mailing Devore and telling him someone is acting the ***** on a board I'm not moderator of because the mod's aren't around.

DrunkLeprachaun · 03-09-2001 9:53pm

I think it's fine, but I do have one problem. I got possitive karma a while ago, but my little number says 0. I didn't get a warning or anything and was wondering what was up.

If there's one thing I hate, it's people.

MiCr0 · 03-09-2001 10:53pm

Originally posted by bubbles:
Sprocket is me btw (was sorting out the password for this nick at the time)

Just as well you don't care about how much influence you have over other people Bard, because hopfully soon it will be virtually nill.

Back to the good old days.

<-- Token smiley

its alive!!!!!!!!!
one of the few ppl to vote with their feet over karma

PHB · 03-09-2001 11:05pm

I dont see any reason why a mod from a different board should have the ability to give karma on a another board. They have the ability to give karma because of the way someone acts whether agressivly or just plain ol' abusive. They gained this responsibility from becoming the mod of a certain board which they deserved to be a mod of because of their expertise in this area. Yet they have no difference to the common poster on the other boards.

Even if it was justified why cant the mod of that board give out karma instead of a different mod doing it. The mod of that board should be watching all the posts and giving out karma accordingly if not he isnt moderating and warning.

dahamsta · 03-09-2001 11:33pm

I think this thread, about the poll, about karma, should be locked.

Seconded.

Carried.

adam

MiCr0 · 03-09-2001 11:38pm

hmmm

Bard · 04-09-2001 12:14am

Originally posted by DrunkLeprachaun:
I think it's fine, but I do have one problem. I got possitive karma a while ago, but my little number says 0. I didn't get a warning or anything and was wondering what was up.

Whether it has to go up or down, it eventually winds its way back to zero over time automatically. That's the "karma fading" being referred to above.

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

TheWolf · 04-09-2001 12:45pm

The karma system is grand. Il admit some moderators abuse it from time to time, but generally its seems sound. Let it run for a while longer, til it's sorted out (if ever) or just ignore it. ITS ONLY A NUMBER FFS!

Oh, and im not just saying this cause i have 4 karma

Apparently, 1 in 5 people in the world are Chinese. And there are 5 people in my family, so it must be one of them. It's either my mum or my dad. Or my older brother Colin. Or my younger brother Ho-Chan-Chu. But I think it's Colin.

Another thing, I've noticed something strange. You stand in the middle of a library and go 'Aaaaaaagghhhh' and everyone just stares at you. But you do the same thing on an aeroplane, and everyone joins in. Think about it...

nesf · 04-09-2001 2:59pm

Karma is poorly implemented by some mods, but it's not karma that is at fault but the mods who abuse it. It is harmless, it's only a number after all, you can't get 12-clicked or anything, and by reading someone's karma history you can see if a mod is abusing it. So long as it remains transparent i can't see a problem with it, so long as mods post a reason for deducting or adding karma.

That said, Bard's point that it is not moderating, is a bit redundant, if it isn't a form of moderator-ship then why is it only restricted to mods? Not that I'm arguing that it should be generally available to all members, that could be quite funny for a while but a disaster in the long run.

I do agree with ropedrink and SHADOW, restrict mods to their own boards only, on other boards they shouldn't be considered as anything more than another poster, I don't see a good reason that they should have any control over karma due to posts not on their board.

Mills · 04-09-2001 7:19pm

The karma system isn't much addition, but it's useful once in a while, and I can't see how it could cause any damage, so let it stay i suppose. Also, I'd like to see a system where ordinary members can "nominate" posts for negative/positive karma but they have to be approved by the board mod or an admin before it takes effect, and it'd be nice to see the topic url displayed that contains the post being warned/praised, but both are probably impossible to do without hacking the pants off the system so I'll shut up now

.

Wolf · 04-09-2001 7:29pm

Mills idea is a nice one I must admit but it would put me in serious trouble

anyway i think karma yes, but in a different way perhap.
I dunno my opions not worth much seen as I should proably be on about -50 karma anyway .

Superman · 04-09-2001 9:53pm

mills idea is probably the best,

I'm in his camp )

Supercell · 04-09-2001 10:39pm

Don't agree with karma "nominations" , mods friend says..i don't agree with xyz...mod.."your wish is my power trip".."-ve karma awarded mate"..or he's a great bloke..etc..etc

Kill Karma , besides bad karma just returns to zero..which in the end means nothing, a mail from dev no doubt sorts most muppets out, and if it doesnt..12 click them, and report them to their isp..

havok* · 04-09-2001 10:59pm

Causes more hassle then it worth imo.

I say diss it...

SHADOW · 05-09-2001 1:41pm

Originally posted by Hobbes:
FFS... why are we having this discussion again?

Wondering the same thing myself.

Look even if you restrict a moderator to put Karma points on thier own board it's going to be mean dick unless you never post to thier boards. Lets say you annoy Castor Troy (who would probably hunt you down and kill you anway). He can't give you that -1 karma point on CounterStrike Forum for saying AP's are bad.. so he goes to his own forum, does a search for your name and gives you the -1 karma point there with the reason on the CS board.

That would be complete abuse of power if the karma system was restricted to a mods own board and it would be obvious as hell.

Originally posted by Bard:

why should they? Mods only MODERATE their own boards - karma has nothing to do with this. Karma is not "moderating".

Bullsh!t. Nobody is talking about the dictionary definition of Moderating. We are all talking about the principal of moderation. I.E. Somebody having the power to do something about a post that they think isnt relavent/suitable for the current discussion on the basis that they are making the community a better place.

The problem that most people have with it as a system as far as I can see is that its completely open to abuse by the mods. Whether they do abuse it or not is a completely different argument (and probably a fairly heated one I would imagine).

I wonder is there anyone who isn't a mod that thinks its a good idea that mods can award Karma anywhere?

games?
DoD? - games1.iol.ie:27017

amp · 05-09-2001 2:18pm

I voted to keep it because with proper care it could have developed into a good system. But it's obvious to me now that even if it were refined or limited it would always be whinged about.

The main reason for it's failure to become at least repected is the abuse of the system by certain mods. And the reason behind that is that karma was merely introduced as a minor hack and not the world-altering hot bed of corruption some now perceive it to be.

Maybe there should have been a set of rules to go with the hack that mods should have been told to adhere to.

But all that said, it makes me laugh to see so many people get really upset about something so trivial. Gwan Bubbles, jump off the cliff again!

Lunacy Abounds! GLminesweeper RO><ORS!
"[amp] may have the respect of the plebs on the other boards" - WWman

Celt · 05-09-2001 4:20pm

By some mods you mean Bob The Unlucky Octopus?

I agree, let's castrate him.

Evil Phil · 05-09-2001 4:34pm

oh Hi WhiteLancer! *much sniggering*

I think it would be best if we were limited to our own boards. However, my friend(!) above (WL) is a good example of how the karma system can work. It does need to be refined though.

[edit]
That's -8 now, so please don't fly off the handle at me

[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Evil Phil (edited 05-09-2001).]

Mistakill · 05-09-2001 4:41pm

lol whitelancer

its got some problems but ill vote for it 'cause i like the idea.

Mills idea is also worth discusing.

I LiKeS WeeeeMAAAnnn

Celt · 05-09-2001 4:49pm

Originally posted by Evil Phil:
oh Hi WhiteLancer! *much sniggering*

I think it would be best if we were limited to our own boards. However, my friend(!) above (WL) is a good example of how the karma system can work. It does need to be refined though.

[edit]
That's -8 now, so please don't fly off the handle at me
[/edit]

I wub yuo too

Hobbes · 05-09-2001 4:58pm

Originally posted by SHADOW:
That would be complete abuse of power if the karma system was restricted to a mods own board and it would be obvious as hell.

That's the problem. There seems to be some serious misconception that the moderators are all corrupt and giving thier friends +1 while smiting thier enemies with -1... in the general scheme of things it means nothing.

Btw, if that was obvious. Instead said moderator could dig up a real old post by the person they hated. Edit it, remove the post and add a comment that the person was being abusive, THEN give them the -1 karma point. You would never find it as edited posts don't go back up to the top.

Hopefully all the paranoid posters out there are now crapping themselves.

Digi_Tilmitt · 05-09-2001 8:08pm

Karma is only a bit of fun. There is no need to get all serious about it. I personally think that it is quite funny to see a person with -27 Karma and think 'He must be a real Muppet!'

I'm a card captor........

Bob the Unlucky Octopus · 05-09-2001 8:53pm

Originally posted by WhiteLancer:
By some mods you mean Bob The Unlucky Octopus?

I agree, let's castrate him.

I'd enjoy it too much. And I should give you karma for that post

Occy

Mountjoy Mugger · 05-09-2001 11:58pm

At the time of writing, the "Scrap it" seem to have the edge with 45%.

[This message has been edited by Mountjoy Mugger (edited 05-09-2001).]

Keeks · 06-09-2001 12:45pm

Scrap it!

the muppet meter, ahem i mean Karma thingy serves no use what so ever> It just acts as a popularity poll, as Mods only give positive Karma to ppl they like or if they posted something they agreed with and negitive Karma to ppl they don't like or disagree with.

What was wrong with they way things were done b4 Karma was introduced. Moderators are only here to preserve order and really shouldn't act like Judge, Jury or Executiners (thats for Evil DeVore

). From what was a Quake board grew a community of ppl with similar ideas and this community is continuing to grow and I can see the point of that it is getting too big to police but we don't need a history of other ppl opions hanging over ppl to remind them of mupperty.

Just Scrap it and if ppl have a problem let them voice it in the Admins board. The commuinty as a whole should have a voice in what goes on and not just the few (ie mods) and let the admins (and by that I mean Evil Dev) to play god.

I all honesty there is very little trouble on the boards and boards members really don't need to accumalate "rap" sheets.

My 2 cents!!!!

nesf · 06-09-2001 12:56pm

I agree with most of what Keeks said, but imo most ppl's problem with karma, isn't so much with it itself but with some mod that they don't like/or dissagree with. Personally I don't put much stock in karma as a way of judging a poster's conduct. Are mods the best system of policing the boards available? Or is there an alternative that might silence the begrudgers? (apart from a bullet or two of course

)

Keeks · 06-09-2001 1:00pm

Self regualtion is the boards policy. The Mods, and this is they way i do it, are only here to to muppetry post and illegal stuff. nothing more. But so ppl seem to get off on the power trip and i don't agree with it. The best mods should be seen and not heard.

WhiteWashMan · 06-09-2001 1:06pm

Originally posted by Keeks:
Self regualtion is the boards policy. The Mods, and this is they way i do it, are only here to to muppetry post and illegal stuff. nothing more. But so ppl seem to get off on the power trip and i don't agree with it. The best mods should be seen and not heard.

to be honest karma has nothing to do with moderating the boards. im not too sure why karma can only be given out by mods. i rarely use it unless someone posts something blatently offensive. on the other hand, mods just look after their own boards. people seem to think that if a mod appears on another board then they are also in a position of power there, when they are not.
im neither for or against karma. i can see its point, but too many people complain about it. its not like it comes into play when you are trying to get into heavan or something. its not a police record so i dont understand why people get so upset about it.
just remember that a mod is only a mod on their own board, not every forum. if that was the case, id have been sacked long ago

your Dungeon Is Full Of Yoghurt.....

Keeks · 06-09-2001 2:50pm

I can see its point too but i'm along the lines that if it serves no (useful) purpose why have it?

WhiteWashMan · 06-09-2001 3:46pm

Originally posted by Keeks:
I can see its point too but i'm along the lines that if it serves no (useful) purpose why have it?

it was meant as a tool to allow people to see who the muppets were or werent. it allowed people to award karma for various reasons. however, people gave it out and others decided it wasnt fair etc etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda. you know what i mean.
it was easier before to see who a muppet was by the posts, but now there seems to be a new board every day, and a lot of people only ready about 10 forums at most, so you wont see a lot of the people who post here. specially them CS muppets

for some reason its only people who havent been here a while who get upset about karma. if i were able to recieve it id have -100 or more by now and it wouldnt bother me a jot becuase i am who i am. the people that mean anythiung to me i have met and they know when im taking the mick or not. so if i say something controvertial, most of the time, the people i know will say, theres eamo taking the mick out of someone again.
its people who dont realise just how laid back a lot of us are that get all annoyed about it all. and its great winding them up

(im an awful bas7ard sometimes!!)
at the end of the day it has to be decided whether we want something that doesnt really work, but is fun to have. lets face, it provides a lot of posts. or do we do away with it. hey, why not have a complaints board? i could moderate, it would give me a good reason to let my 'dry sense of humour' go on people.
i think we should keep it, it provides me with hours of endless entertainment, and devore and co. with headaches

PHB · 06-09-2001 5:42pm

Well the only people who would need to know who the muppets are are the newbies to the boards. And i wouldnt take it seriously if i just came with all the complaining of unfair mods on this board. When i asked dev he also said that he uses it for admins to help monitor the boards, i dont see why a mod couldnt just email him or such.

Also wh00t whitelancer is back baby

Bard · 06-09-2001 6:05pm

Which is better?...

"This is broken. Let's throw it away and never talk about it again"

or

"This is broken. Let's fix it!"

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

DeVore · 06-09-2001 6:17pm

I've been thinking long and hard about this.

1. Karma as it stands does mirror moderation.

2. It was set up to alert me to people who deserve booting but its not really worked like that. Thats mostly my fault for not explaining it better to the mods.

3. Everyones opinions are valid, not just mods, but mods are mods because they tend to have a stablising effect on their board in most cases and they tend to be likeminded with the admins.

4. Every board has a different character. What will fly on humour or cs may get you into a flame war on humanities or science. And rightly so!

5. This hetrogenous mix (look it up!) makes mixing mods/boards a bad idea and has led to the confusion when mods apply their board acceptibility rules of thumbs to others.

6. We are working on a new system. It will not have Karma as it is now, it will have something better and open to all (afaik).

Resolution:
I've weighed the arguments both enflamed and logical and decided that Karma will stay but Mods will be limited to their board.

This will mean that there in general will be less karma given out. As a result karma will, for the forseeable future be set in stone. No regression.

I'd like the mods to think fairly hard before issuing karma. A good rules of thumb is: If I were DeV, would I 12 click this muppet. If the answer is yes or probably then give him -ve Karma, if no dont.

If I see people wandering about with tons of neg karma I'll know its a lot of votes by our eyes and ears for his/her expulsion.

As for those of you with tons of neg karma now... haha tough. Didnt your mother ever warn you that if you pull faces you might end up looking like that??

Changes will take effect on the weekend.

DeVore.

WhiteWashMan · 07-09-2001 7:11am

this is the word of the lord.

hetrogenous. when did you learn big words?

Karma: Informational poll...

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