4x4 Advice

astec123

A friend of mine is looking to upgrade from her VW Passat to a 4x4 as she is an architect, so she really could really do with a 4x4 to get her to and from the sites. The problem lies in that she doesn’t want to spend a fortune on the car and the current top model she is looking at is the Nissan xTrail, and while a decent car I’m not convinced it’s the best option as its not really an off-roader more an urban school runner, I have been racking my brain for ages for suggestions and the best I can come up with is a Landy. To compound the problem she has to have a car with 2litres or less as her 18year old son is going to be learning to drive in it and the insurance will cripple her otherwise.

So Im looking for suggestions of cars to look at, they need to be no older than an 03 and brand new is an option but needs to be about the cost of an xTrail.

peasant

Depending on what the sites look like, she might not really need a "real" 4x4.
If it is only slippery, uneven tracks that she has to content with, any of the "school run" fourbies should do the trick as well.

A Subaru Forester is supposedly a very nice road car also and on the 2.0 non turbo version also offers a reduced gearbox to help with trickier situations while ground clearance is quite good (better than it looks and better than CRV, RAV4, X-trail et al). That would be my pick
For example:http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=253603

If she has to regularly follow diggers and other heavy plant in their wake only a "real" 4x4 will do. i.e good clearance, short overhangs and reduction gearbox. (And possibly some off road tyres)

The only ones (that i can think of) that stay within the 2 litre boundary are:
Suzuki Jimny (not really a long distance car, some would say not even a car at all )
Misubishi Pajero Pinin 1.8 (grossly overpriced)
Suzuki Grand Vitara 1.6 Petrol (SWB) or 2.0 Diesel (LWB) (the diesel would be my recommendation)
Example: http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=233462

astec123

Thanks Peasant, will look into those for her. Any other suggestions.

bkehoe

A freelander stays within the 2.0 boundary as well. Should be quite good with the permanent 4wd for convenience and decent offroad ability. If engine size wasnt an issue, then I'd recommend a 00+ series II Discovery. Some good bargains can be got on the early discovery 2 models at this stage.

30-6shooter

I hate to break it to you, but a real jeep is a 3.0L engeine, or there abouts.
Real Jeeps: (Landcruiser 3.0L, Pjero2.5/2.8L, Trooper3.1, land rover defender,)

Anything else is not a jeep, and not a 4*4, although you`ll find the ppl driving these cheap townee lookalikes,(Crv, wil try to tell you they have a jeep,,,,,,, when in fact all they have are 2.0L cars, SUV`s that are no higher off the ground than a feckin car,,, so she`d be better off keeping the Passat she has.

All we need is another woman in a large suv, cutting corners :rolleyes:

bazz26

I would stay away from the Freelander. They are known for being troublesome especially the gearbox. The build quality is also below par and they are quite expensive new.

To be honest the X-Trail is very popular here and is one of the best selling SUVs. Alternatives to the X-Trail are the Toyota Rav4, Honda CRV, Susuki Vitara and Hyundai Santa Fae. But if she is going onto building sites then she may need something a bit more rugged.

Does it have to be a passenger 4x4 or will a commercial version do i.e. no windows or seats in the rear? Did she look at the Mitsubishi Pajaro Sport or even a L200 double crew cab pick-up might do. Only thing is that the L200 is horrible to drive on the road. Nissan have a 4x4 pick-up too called the Navara. Only thing is that all these machines are 2.5 or above.

astec123

I hate to break it to you, but a real jeep is a 3.0L engeine, or there abouts.
Real Jeeps: (Landcruiser 3.0L, Pjero2.5/2.8L, Trooper3.1, land rover defender,)

Anything else is not a jeep, and not a 4*4, although you`ll find the ppl driving these cheap townee lookalikes,(Crv, wil try to tell you they have a jeep,,,,,,, when in fact all they have are 2.0L cars, SUV`s that are no higher off the ground than a feckin car,,, so she`d be better off keeping the Passat she has.

All we need is another woman in a large suv, cutting corners

So I take it that the definition of a jeep is somewhere now?

I would stay away from the Freelander. They are known for being troublesome especially the gearbox. The build quality is also below par and they are quite expensive new.

Im researching things for her at the moment.

To be honest the X-Trail is very popular here and is one of the best selling SUVs. Alternatives to the X-Trail are the Toyota Rav4, Honda CRV, Susuki Vitara and Hyundai Santa Fae. But if she is going onto building sites then she may need something a bit more rugged.

She needs rugged not SUV. Thats the point.

Does it have to be a passenger 4x4 or will a commercial version do i.e. no windows or seats in the rear? Did she look at the Mitsubishi Pajaro Sport or even a L200 double crew cab pick-up might do. Only thing is that the L200 is horrible to drive on the road. Nissan have a 4x4 pick-up too called the Navara. Only thing is that all these machines are 2.5 or above.

Has to be a passenger car and a pickups a waste of money as its just weight thats not worth it with petrol prices here.

Rabies

30-6shooter wrote:

I hate to break it to you, but a real jeep is a 3.0L engeine, or there abouts.
Real Jeeps: (Landcruiser 3.0L, Pjero2.5/2.8L, Trooper3.1, land rover defender,)

Anything else is not a jeep, and not a 4*4, although you`ll find the ppl driving these cheap townee lookalikes,(Crv, wil try to tell you they have a jeep,,,,,,, when in fact all they have are 2.0L cars, SUV`s that are no higher off the ground than a feckin car,,, so she`d be better off keeping the Passat she has.
:

I agree with you. People that drive CRVs, Rav4s, Grand Vitara etc are not driving proper jeeps.
We have a Landcruiser and Discovery. The Landcruiser is an amazing jeep. Never gives any trouble and will cross nearly any terrain. The Discovery is ok, nothing special. Would rather change it for a Pajero.

astec, is 4x4 car an option? would keep the litre size down is insurance is a consideration. A jeep with an engine size under 2.5ltrs is not really proper jeep in my opinion.

30-6shooter

We have a Landcruiser and Discovery. The Landcruiser is an amazing jeep. Never gives any trouble and will cross nearly any terrain.

Yeah, ive landcruisers aswell, well ther emy uncles but i do have them now and then, being a culchie. We do have them all over the farm and in quarrys, building sites, ect, and tow loads, and trailers, diesel tanks with it, (the work of a real jeep, not an SUV )

Theres nothing that architect woman with the passat will be able to do in her SUV that she cant do with her passat. Im not being smart here, but I bet if she had to tow a trailer or something on the jeep she wouldnt even be able to handle it properly or reverse it or anything with a trailer. :rolleyes: But she needs her SUV to drive in the "entrance" of a site, as thats about all it`ll do no fear.

bazz26

Looks like the Subaru Forester as already mentions might be the best option but it is not available in diesel.

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carid=253603

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carid=252043

astec123

astec, is 4x4 car an option? would keep the litre size down is insurance is a consideration. A jeep with an engine size under 2.5ltrs is not really proper jeep in my opinion.

It needs to be a mud plugger. ie high GC and low COG.

astec123

Theres nothing that architect woman with the passat will be able to do in her SUV that she cant do with her passat. Im not being smart here, but I bet if she had to tow a trailer or something on the jeep she wouldnt even be able to handle it properly or reverse it or anything with a trailer. But she needs her SUV to drive in the "entrance" of a site, as thats about all it`ll do no fear.

Its a 98 passat and because of her job its had 2 rear springs, 3 sets of lights, and a repair job on body twist. Telling me that she should keep the passat is no use it costs more to keep it running than buying new will. She wants a new car like this as the passat cant handle the winter mud plugging to the sites.

30-6shooter

Looks like the Subaru Forester as already mentions might be the best option but it is not available in diesel.

Its not available in diesel, because its not a real 4*4. Its best left to towing the horsebox once every blue moon.

Its a 98 passat and because of her job its had 2 rear springs, 3 sets of lights, and a repair job on body twist. Telling me that she should keep the passat is no use it costs more to keep it running than buying new will. She wants a new car like this as the passat cant handle the winter mud plugging to the sites.

And an Suv can, its no higher. Just has a slightly bigger engine 2.0L Wow. It`ll still suffer the way the passat did. Why wont it?

Tell her to buy a Daihatsu Fourtrak, or else learn to drive the passat so it doesnt suffer body twist. Is she fat or something???? Tell her to park at the site entrance, or up at the portacabins and walk that little extra.

astec123

On topic please, I have seen the car she uses and been with her to these sites and Im telling you now that the stuff she does kills her passat. I need suggestions of what to suggest, some of the ideas I mentioned already to her but are discounted but she needs a real 4x4 that can manage to do propper off roading.

30-6shooter

I think we already established the Landcruiser! Tell the son to buy his own car.

AMurphy

astec123 wrote:

A friend of mine is looking to upgrade from her VW Passat to a 4x4 as she is an architect, so she really could really do with a 4x4 to get her to and from the sites. .......

I fused for a business, it could be registered as such. hence less vat.
other alternatives are the 2 seater, steel windowed 4x4 "van" editions of regular SUVs. I saw a Toy Landcruiser as one by a carpenter, seemed adequet for the job.

The other question; is 4x4 really necessary. Cause a 2x4 version of a 4x4 may well serve the same function, Though for one reason or another 2x4 versions of 4x4s seem rate in ROI, unless you go down to a very basic light truck.
(The wonders of marketing and strange tax regulations.)

Borzoi

30-6shooter wrote:

I think we already established the Landcruiser! Tell the son to buy his own car.

You repeating Landcruiser, landcruiser probably hasn't established anything at all.

I think astec that you may have difficulty getting a small petrol 4x4. However I would have thought that a 2.5l diesel wouldn't be that expensive to ensure for the lad.

The other thing to watch is if your friend does a lot of travelling to the sites, she'd probably be better off in a car as the road driving is so much better. OK, so for some sites she might have to put on a her boots and walk a bit though

yellow012

Might be worth having a look at the new MK5 Octavia 1.9tdi 4x4 estate? Nice comfortable road car, loads of space in the back for her work gear, enough off road ability to get in and out of sites.

kermit_ie

I also have to put the plug in for the Subaru Forester. I have one, and I also do a lot of visiting building sites, and it's the business.

peasant

Just to clarify:

Suzukis are "real" 4x4's. With ladder frame, solid axles, reduction gearboxes and good ground clearance.

The Jimny is pocket size (1.3 litre) but no less capable than any of the 3 litre lumps (except towing bulls or horses) and the Vitara has a two litre Diesel and proper 4x4 dimensions.

Nothing wrong with them ...just cheaper than your Landcruisers, Troopers et al

CJhaughey

yellow012 wrote:

Might be worth having a look at the new MK5 Octavia 1.9tdi 4x4 estate? Nice comfortable road car, loads of space in the back for her work gear, enough off road ability to get in and out of sites.

No it won't do , as peasant has already pointed out off road ability has more to do with general rugged build (Ladder Chassis) than just a spare wheel stuck on the back door.
If the woman has already bent or twisted the Passat's chassis than it is safe to say that she needs something a little bit more rugged than a Octavia. regardless of whether it is 4x4 or not.
I drive a landcruiser, but would side with peasant on this one if she really needs a true 4x4 under 2 litres capacity the Suzuki Vitara 2.0 diesel would be the only one that is rugged enough for the job that I can think of.

crazy days

I have a Suzuki 1.6 petrol; great for the sites good on petrol; good price.
you can pick up great deals from EP Mooney on the Nass Road.

Of course it's not a real Jeep I agree but get real, who needs to cross a river or climb a mountain.
You just need that extra wheel height and the 4 wheel drive for building sites.

CJhaughey

Crazy days, you would be surprised where your suzy would go, I bet you would run out of balls before the suzuki does...

JohnBoy

Definitely the vitara.

It's all proper old school 4x4 under there, just smaller.

No-one is arguing that the landcruiser isn't an extremely effective machine.

The problem with the landcruiser is that it's got too big an engine for the lady's requirments as laid out in the original post and is also mega expensive.

suzukis always gets stick from those that don't know what they're talking about

take a look here at what suzukis can be made do

Rabies

crazy days wrote:

I have a Suzuki 1.6 petrol; great for the sites good on petrol; good price.
you can pick up great deals from EP Mooney on the Nass Road.

Of course it's not a real Jeep I agree but get real, who needs to cross a river or climb a mountain.
You just need that extra wheel height and the 4 wheel drive for building sites.

I do. Many of the places I go to are out door concerts sites which are now classed as building sites before and after the show. A city 4x4 is fine for getting through a little bit of mud but I wouldn't want to try and work them hard. We have pulled a 12ft trailer with 1tonne of weight through nearly 1ft of mud with a Landcruiser. No problem for it. Regularly pulls a box containing 2 horses around the country also. Best 4x4 around in my opinion.

edit: Is the 4x4 your looking for just for work use or personal use? Would a commercial vehicle do or do you need seats in the back?

peasant

The OP didn't mention anything about pulling trailers (or tree stumps out of the ground, for that matter) So why would anyone burden themselves with a three litre two ton plus tractor ?

On its own (without trailer attached) the Vitara will probably go further than any of the other tanks that were praised here ...simply because it's lighter and doesn't sink in that much.

Having said that ...ALL 4x4's (especially with road tires on) will reach a point where they will simply not be able to follow a tracked vehicle like a digger, and will get stuck. Usually in a place where it is REALLY inconvenient and cumbersome to get it out again.

Keeping that in mind, the aforementioned Forester and a pair of wellies in the boot might be the best solution. It'll handle rough tracks much better than the Passat, be comfortable on the road and the wellies can take over when it comes to really difficult terrain

CJhaughey

But the Forester still has a non ladder chassis, making it entirely possible that the good lady may twist the chassis while negotiating poor terrain.If she already bent the Passat, I wouldn't bet on the Forester holding up either.

BrianD3

If she bent the Passat I think she needs to take a look at her driving style. I find it hard to believe that you could bend a car like that by driving onto building sites. Unless you were travelling far too fast for the conditions.

CJhaughey

Generally what wrecks the chassis is the twisting action caused by the left front and right rear (or similar) passing over large humps/rocks , you don't need to be going fast , it's just that most cars aren't designed for that kind of thing.
I seem to recall that someone tested the freelander and a bunch of other 4x4 type vehicles by opening the boot and driving them across rough terrain, the freelanders boot wouldn't even shut after the test.

peasant

Axle articulation is the buzzword.
Deep holes and/or big bumps is what you need it for.
A ladder frame with solid axles is where you get it.

So the Vitara it is

astec123

Thanks to those of you that offered your suggestions I have just spoken to them with the advice I have gotten thus far and safe to say I didnt even think of the Vitara. As for those who decided to complain about her driving style take it somewhere else its no appreciated by me or anyone else that was as kind as to offer their thoughts and opinions. The car is a 98 passat owned from near new as it was 6months old when purchased and has been in use every day since. Its falling appart as she has 3 kids to do the school run with and also her job taking clients to the sites often in the middle of no where down country lanes and muddied fields so a propper 4x4 is what she needs to do this with.

Once again thanks all, I somehow expect that I will be going car shopping in a few weeks! I would take the Vitara myself and will try pushing that one.

peasant

For a little more money, there is also the Vitara XL ...either as 7 seater or a 5 seater with a massive boot (that will take the clients' wellies as well )

While the long chassis will rule it out from competition style offroading (which is not the question here anyway), it offers significantly more space than the "normal" Grand Vitara and also the Passat.

see example:
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=243598
still with the two litre Diesel (that grille is a bit naff though ...)


btw ...i don't work for Suzuki ...i just drive one

Capt'n Midnight

Fiat Panda 4x4

I'm not joking.

Uses viscous coupling to transmit power to the rear wheels when you start to slip.

AMurphy

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Fiat Panda 4x4

I'm not joking.

Uses viscous coupling to transmit power to the rear wheels when you start to slip.

hey, dont laugh,
I say an article on a 4x4 Mini (old style) in a mag, and mini-4x4's are fairly popular in Japan. Camry and Priva are and Corolla, may be, available in 4x4, as is the Voyager Grand Caravan, W/3.8L-V6.
and you have the VW Passat 4-Motion available to you. the 3.2-V6 Golf is also 4wd, Y/N?

Son_of_Belial

Well, if it wasn't for the fact that she doesn't want to spend a fortune... The best 4x4 by far has got to be the Hummer H1 Alpha. Draw back is the price at about €100,000 but you can get second hand ones. There's a dealership in Manchester.

Chimaera

Interesting thread....

astec: I doubt this person needs a genuine off-roader; as many have pointed out, somehting like a Subaru Forester, or a 4x4 version of a saloon or estate should be more than adequate to get her to the site entrance. After that, she can walk - chances are driving any further will only get in the way of construction machinery anyway.

The only justification for using a full-on off-roader is for regular towing of large loads, or serious off-road travel; no building site I've ever seen would necessitate one of these vehicles imho.

As for the son, she'd be better off buying him a 1.3 Escort or something similar, that's not very fast and cheap to insure and run, rather than letting him off in a 30-40k powerhouse which he's far more likely to wrap around a tree at 70mph.

Incidentally, a 'proper' 4x4 doesn't necessarily have to have a ladder frame or live axles any more - the Porsche Cayenne will give a Defender a run for it's money off road, and it's a unitary shell with double wishbones all round; ditto new Range Rover. LR Discovery 3 has what they call body on frame arrangement - basically a hybrid of unitary shell and ladder frame - works very well, but is a major factor in the thing weighing 2.7 tonnes; it also has double wishbones all round and at least equals a defender off road.

ds20prefecture

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Fiat Panda 4x4
I'm not joking.
Uses viscous coupling to transmit power to the rear wheels when you start to slip.

This is an excellent car - good ground clearance, good traction and light. The only problem is that it's not available with the excellent diesel
The 2CV is also quite good off road, particularly in (admittedly rare) 4wd form. This car has greater wheel travel than a range rover, and fully independant suspension, which is useful.

My sister ran a fleet of 4x4s for a charity in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Sudan. The Land Cruiser was the vehicle of choice in Kosovo because of it's surprisingly good road manners and dependable build. However when she got to Afghanistan, the land cruisers would last about a year. They just couldn't hack it at all. The only thing regarded as tough enough for Afghanistan was the Lada Niva. Terrible on-road, these things could run dependably on anything in any conditions for many years. It helped that they were cheap as chips (which nobody could accuse the land cruiser of). Sudan was a mix between Nissan Patrols and Land Cruisers, but they weren't quite as robust as people make out. In all cases, the locals used to laugh at Land Rovers.

Moral is: Expensive off-roaders are not necessarily better than cheap ones. The Daihatsu 4 track should be available for about 50p, and is extremely robust, with a strong diesel. Awful car in all other respects.

peasant

the Porsche Cayenne will give a Defender a run for it's money off road, and it's a unitary shell with double wishbones all round

Just a little theoretical excursion:

The reason why the Cayenne doesn't get stuck on its first yards off the road is because it is packed to the gills with electro-mechanical gizmos. Its road biased suspension is not fit for off-roading at all. At the slightest sign of ondulated terrain, one or two wheels start losing contact due to the limited articulation. It still keeps going "simply" because all sorts of electronic little helpers detect this and send power to the wheels which still have contact and prevent the wheels which are up in the air from spinning pointlessly by applying the brakes. And when you send 400+ hp as in the case of the cayenne, it might actually still go. Furthermore the supension can also lift the car higher up, to compensate for limited wheel travel. Basically what it is is a very elaborate brute force compromise. Same goes for the likes of Merc ML or BMW X5 also.

Any other so-called offroader that has road suspension and one of those viscous coupling 4Wd systems but none of the Cayenne gizmos will go a little further than a normal car on wet grass or snow but will fail miserably as soon as the terrain becomes bumpy because its sticking one or two wheels in the air, whirring away the power pointlessly.

Capt'n Midnight

Son_of_Belial wrote:

Well, if it wasn't for the fact that she doesn't want to spend a fortune... The best 4x4 by far has got to be the Hummer H1 Alpha. Draw back is the price at about €100,000 but you can get second hand ones. There's a dealership in Manchester.

Where would you park it ? It's 4.8m long x 2.5m wide inc mirrors. Half the lenght of a DoubleDecker bus and almost as wide (the bus is one foot wider, but the hummer has much wider mirrors. Hummer wheels are at the corners and the buses are nearer the centre. So you litterly have about the same manoveurability as a bus in city traffic.

Fuel tank (gal / L): 29.5 / 111.7 main and 22 / 83.3 auxiliary
That's €200 to fill both tanks !
http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/04october/hummer_h1alpha.asp

Also you can't drive it on a car license (B) or even a (C1) license since it's over 7.5 tonnes.
GCWR (lb / kg): 17,300 / 7,847
http://www.transport.ie/roads/licensing/licence/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1836
And if you are going to the trouble of getting a (C) license for a real offroader you could save yourself a fortune and get a slightly bigger ex-military Unimog. There is no truth in the rumour that the US Army bought them to rescue Hummers but ...

Fuel tank (gal / L): 29.5 / 111.7 main and 22 / 83.3 auxiliary
That's €200 to fill both tanks !

And after all that it still doesn't have any more seats than the Fiat Panda.

bp_me

I dont think it has been mentioned, but what about a Kia Sorento. Realisticly almost any of the "Soft roaders"(in 4x4 guise) should be more than adequate for driving onto building sites though.

Oh, and just to say, I didnt read the whole thread properly before posting, so sorry if some of this has been covered already.

thelurcher

ds20prefecture: Wouldn't be 100% sure but I'd say the land cruisers that your sister ran were more than likely the 70 or 80 series - they're a fair bit different to the cruiser you see on the road here - and much much more capable off road.

Since they didn't last in Afghanistan they could well be the version sold here that she used?

A lot of the World wide cred that the land cruiser has for off road abilities is down to the 70 series.

HashSlinging

Skoda have introduced a 4x4 version of the octavia estate, uses the 1.9 Tdi engine.

Sorted !

CJhaughey

thelurcher wrote:

ds20prefecture: Wouldn't be 100% sure but I'd say the land cruisers that your sister ran were more than likely the 70 or 80 series - they're a fair bit different to the cruiser you see on the road here - and much much more capable off road.

Since they didn't last in Afghanistan they could well be the version sold here that she used?

A lot of the World wide cred that the land cruiser has for off road abilities is down to the 70 series.

Yep have to agree with thelurcher here most of the TLC you see on Irish roads are in fact series 90 (swb) or 95(lwb) also known as Prado they are essentially the same as the Hilux Surf, and have IFS.
The 70series OTOH is the vehicle of choice for most offroad situations and 3rd world use. in fact they still make the 70 series as the HZJ78/9 series and it has an unrivalled reputation for toughness. I am puzzled as to the unreliability issue, as they are usually the last vehicle left running, No wait I think that honour goes to the Hilux 2.4:)