ASAI examines Eircom broadband ad - Sunday Business Post

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ASAI examines Eircom broadband ad

26 June 2005 By Louise McBride
The Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland (ASAI) is investigating complaints about an advertisement for Eircom's new broadband service.

The product, Broadband Time, offers 20 hours of broadband a month for €19.99, and was advertised in the national press last weekend.

The ASAI said it could not give details of the complaints until the matter had been investigated. However, according to Peter Weigl, a telecoms analyst and author of telecoms website Comwreck.com, the complaints allege that the advertisement is misleading.

“One feature of broadband is that it is ‘always on',” said Weigl. “This time-based product is not always on, so it's not broadband by its original definition.”

The always-on feature of broadband essentially means that customers have unlimited internet access for a monthly fee. Although the Eircom advertisement for Broadband Time specifies that there is a monthly time allowance of 20 hours, Weigl said the advert failed to specify the charges when users went over this allowance.

“This product is frivolously expensive and, on top of that, nastily booby-trapped,” said Weigl. “If you are online for more than 20 hours a month, you will be charged an additional €2.40 an hour up to a maximum of €30. This could bring up the cost to almost €50.”

Last week, Eircom said that it had received one complaint about the advert, criticising the timed element of the product. “We don't accept this,” said a spokeswoman. “Broadband is about bandwidth. A similar time-based package has been successful in other EU countries.”

She said Eircom had no plans to withdraw the advert.

The Broadband Time offer is available to new customers who sign up between July and September.

Last week, rival telecom operator BT launched an ‘always on' broadband offer, which is available to new customers from €15 a month for the first four months, and €30 a month after that.

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=5959-qqqx=1.asp

Cryos

T-DSL (T-Online Germanys Dsl Department) have time based packages, however they prove to be less sucsessfull than the "All inclusive" packs.

Solair

I've said it once and I'll say it again, that eircom timed broadband product's utterly stupid. They seem to fail to realise that they're actually operating in a compeditive environment. I can't find any eircom package for voice or internet that beats BT Ireland or even comes close to matching it.

They're obviously living of people's fear of switching or inability to switch because there's certainly no evidence that they're playing a compeditive game.

Vote with you feet. As soon as you can move your BB move it to the cheapest provider.

BT Ireland's billing hickups are apparently being sorted out too.

the_syco

Solair wrote:

Vote with you feet. As soon as you can move your BB move it to the cheapest provider.

The sad part of it is, that alot of people who have switched are (according to the complaints on boards.ie) instantly regreeting it, as the "cheapest provider" ain't always that better.

=-=

Wondered myself how an "always on" service could work on a time-limited basis.

paulm17781

To be pedantic the definition of Broadband is multiple frequencies. Always on is just broadband as people understand it so it is not actually false advertising as it is a broadband product.

Moriarty

Technically of course you're right paulm, but words can legitimately take on new meanings due to widespread and sustained use in describing something. Language is constantly evolving as you know. "Broadband" in the internet access context means more than simply using a lot of physical layer bandwidth.

paulm17781

Moriarty wrote:

Technically of course you're right paulm, but words can legitimately take on new meanings due to widespread and sustained use in describing something. Language is constantly evolving as you know. "Broadband" in the internet access context means more than simply using a lot of physical layer bandwidth.

I agree that this is what people think it means and what it is coming to mean, but to say it is false advertising is incorrect as it is still a broadband product by definition.

Solair

Well, the main thing is that there are alternative real broadband products out there and, if people have any sense at all, they will subscribe to one of the cheaper always on services.

At that price point, timed broadband connections are simply not compeditive.

eircomtribunal

paulm17781 wrote:

I agree that this is what people think it means and what it is coming to mean, but to say it is false advertising is incorrect as it is still a broadband product by definition.

Here are some of the ASAI standards from their web site that come to mind:

"Principles
2.2 All advertisements should be prepared with a sense of responsibility to consumers and to society.
2.4 The Code is applied in the spirit as well as in the letter.

Honesty
2.20 Advertisers should not exploit the credulity, inexperience or lack of knowledge of consumers.

Truthfulness
2.22 An advertisement should not mislead by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.
2.24 Claims such as 'Up to' and 'From' should not exaggerate the value or the range of benefits likely to be achieved in practice by consumers."


When we accept the most common definition of Broadband,
"Broadband is a general term used to describe any high-speed, high-bandwidth, "always on" Internet connection.", which is similarly also used not least by the Department of Communications, then it is worth asking ASAI to investigate.

The full text of the complaint to the ASAI (which is a powerless fig-leave private company set up by the industry to protect itself against court cases) was:
"1. Broadband is generally (DCMNR, Forfas, ComReg and general media) defined as a high speed Internet connection (latest authoritative ComReg definition: above 2 Mb/s) that is always-on.
While the Eircom ad in question has in the small print the information : "There is a time allowance for eircom broadband time of 20 hours per month" this does not justify to advertise the product under the prime headline information, that this is a broadband product, when if fact one of the most important features or broadband, its always-on nature, is missing.

2. While the ad has the big headline figure of "from only € 19.99 per month" it mentions in the small print that this price will apply to 31st March 2006, I feel Eircom should have informed the consumer that then the price will go up to € 24.99.

3. The "eircom broadband time" product has a nasty "booby trap" built into: users who overreach the 20 hours will be penalised at a whopping € 2.40 per hour. For a weekly overreach of only 2 and a half hours (three hours during the promotional period) the user of this product will be charged an extra € 30 per month, bringing the total cost for the service up to € 49.99 (and only then, when Eircom has retrieved 30 euros more than the initial price, the user gets disconnected. It should be noted that any extra usage by the customer is at no additional cost to Eircom. The time restriction is totally artificial and alien to the broadband technology.) While the small print contains the standard text that "Terms and conditions apply" I am of the opinion that such a substantial part of the service should not simply be allowed to be hidden in the T and C note.

4. I rang twice the number supplied with the ad (1800 503 303) and asked about the terms and conditions. In both cases I was not made aware of this 30 euro "booby-trap". When I queried specifically about the cost of overreach, I was misleadingly informed that any overreach would not incur a charge of more then € 30 inclusive of the price of the service. Eircom's customer support may in the meantime have the right information, as I insisted to inform the supervisor about the wrong information they were giving out."
P.

The Clown Man

Actually I would have said that the main points of possible illegality were the advertising of a €19.99 service without specifying the real cost and the misleading of the customer service dept. and could probably be the main topics of interest to the ASAI.

Unfortunately, raping people of their hard earned money just because they are ignorant of what the real consequenses of signing up on a "time" package are is immoral but not illegal. But hey. If Eircom had morals there would be no need for this forum. :rolleyes:

parasite

you should complain about the radio ad, no mention of the 20 hour limit there

eircomtribunal

The Clown Man wrote:

Unfortunately, raping people of their hard earned money just because they are ignorant of what the real consequenses of signing up on a "time" package are is immoral but not illegal.

That is one of the few nice things about the ASAI: See the points from their standards above: They have not to decide whether something is illegal. Their standard is much higher, at least on paper.

P.

jor el

The Clown Man wrote:

Unfortunately, raping people of their hard earned money just because they are ignorant of what the real consequenses of signing up on a "time" package are is immoral but not illegal. But hey. If Eircom had morals there would be no need for this forum. :rolleyes:

ASAI codes of practice wrote:

Honesty
2.20 Advertisers should not exploit the credulity, inexperience or lack of knowledge of consumers.

This Broadband Time product is targeted specifically at people who don't know any better. The ads leave out the important things like penalty for exceeding and that there is even a penalty in place. The ad should therefore be removed or updated as it is designed to take advantage of people's ignorance of what the product actually is. I couldn't think of anybody who would actually buy this except people that don't have a clue what it is.

A time based broadband product is aimed solely at ignorant people, but are we really surprised? Exploitation of the weak is what Eircom do best.

juliuspret

The two aspects of those adds that people will take in is that its €19.99 a month and Broadband.

Average people wont care or have a clue of anything else and probable wont even think about time once they get it.

Honestly though this could blow up in eircoms face if people get infected by a virus or something that keeps their connection active...which will then lead to a €50 bill.....and in the extreme possible disconnection according to eircoms T&C's.
With larger than expected biling for the Broadband...customer service reps may get very large headaches from all the screaming over the phone!!!

SparkyLarks

juliuspret wrote:

Honestly though this could blow up in eircoms face if people get infected by a virus or something that keeps their connection active...which will then lead to a €50 bill.....and in the extreme possible disconnection according to eircoms T&C's.

But the person using eircom time could simply switch off the router. It is very easy while your computer is powering down to flick the switch on the router.

cgarvey

The pocket modem I saw at a marketing group didn't have any switches. They said that's what would be shipping with Time (for a fee), but that may change.

SparkyLarks

cgarvey wrote:

The pocket modem I saw at a marketing group didn't have any switches. They said that's what would be shipping with Time (for a fee), but that may change.

Now that's silly.

juliuspret

SparkyLarks wrote:

Not that's silly.

What???

SparkyLarks

Sorry Meant to say Now that's silly.

Cos eircom could have put in the manual, we reccommend that you turn off your router when not using it to ensure that no malware, (or even other know programs are searching for updates ect) is using you connection.

That would cover their ass a little

clearz

paulm17781 wrote:

I agree that this is what people think it means and what it is coming to mean, but to say it is false advertising is incorrect as it is still a broadband product by definition.

I believe the origonal defination for broadband was made in the 1980's for a datarate of 150Mb/s and above because this was the ammount needed at the time to stream video but with new compression algorithms the ammount of bandwith needed for video streaming was greatly reduced. My point is that the definition for broadband has changed over time.

eircomtribunal

clearz wrote:

My point is that the definition for broadband has changed over time.

It sure has and there is certainly not a clear-cut and definite one around. But that is not the issue here.

One of the generally understood and accepted ingredients of Broadband is its "always-on character".

Take pages three and four of ComReg's presentation on 2nd June 2004 in Tipperary with the title "Broadband in Ireland" (I cannot locate the ppt doc on the ComReg website, but if anyone wants to see it just email me).

On page 3: Under the headline What is Broadband? it says:

At its most basic broadband can be described as “a relatively high-level of telecommunications capacity” which offers an ‘always-on’ connection.
‘Always-on’ is an industry term that simply means that users do not need to dial-up or log-off every time they want to get on or off the Internet.

On page four it goes on under the headline: What is so different about broadband?

2. ‘Always-on’ – Flat-rate tariffs and a separate voice channel remove the need to continuously connect and disconnect to the Internet. The end-user can enjoy their time on the Internet without feeling ‘watched and counted’.

This is followed by a picture of the Eircom rat sitting at the computer with the caption: "It's more than just speed."
The problem is that the ASAI are an industry owned and run fig leave with no powers at all. ComReg on the other hand have the powers, but do not have the spine to publicly warn against Eircom's swindle broadband product.
Probably we can regard ourselves lucky that ComReg has not publicly commented on the new product calling it another welcome and innovative way to entice Irish consumers to Broadband...

P.

SparkyLarks

clearz wrote:

I believe the origonal defination for broadband was made in the 1980's for a datarate of 150Mb/s and above because this was the ammount needed at the time to stream video but with new compression algorithms the ammount of bandwith needed for video streaming was greatly reduced. My point is that the definition for broadband has changed over time.

And will continue to change.
In 20 yearys time people will be complaining about how the government run Wi-Fi networks in Rural towns Only give 10 Terra Bpts per second while in Korea they have 100 Peta bytes and are looking at an Exa byte network covering the entire country( I did have to look those prefixes up)

HelterSkelter

Was just looking at the Government web site http://www.broadband.gov.ie and saw this on the main homepage:

Benefits of Broadband at a glance
Fast
Up to 40 times faster than traditional dial-up internet access.
Always-On
No dial-up, no time restrictions, no cut-offs.
Convenient
Access the internet and talk on the telephone at the same time.
Entertainment
Experience smooth digital video and CD quality music
Value
One flat fee per month with no additional internet call charges

SparkyLarks

If Eircom were to accept that definition of broadband, which would be suprising, they could claim as below.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Was just looking at the Government web site http://www.broadband.gov.ie and saw this on the main homepage:
No dial-up, no time restrictions, no cut-offs.

Well you don't have to dial up
No- one is restricting the time you spend on the internet. you can spend as long as you like
No one will cut you off

HelterSkelter wrote:

One flat fee per month with no additional internet call charges

It's not a call charge. as you are not dialing up i.e calling any number.

(ok the second one's a bit of a stretch)

Therfore by that definitin it is broadband.

However that definition of broadband is not legally binding.

HelterSkelter

SparkyLarks wrote:

No- one is restricting the time you spend on the internet. you can spend as long as you like
No one will cut you off

I may be wrong but I think they do cut you off if you go over the 20 hours and your extra charges reach €30.

juliuspret

SparkyLarks
Question:
Are you now or have you ever been an employee of eircom?

AFAIK eircom Time is €20 for 20hours of fast internet access.
After the 20 hours you get charged €2.40 an hour until you reach €50 in total charges or have used fast internet access for 32.5 hours in total.
After reaching €50 you will not be charged extra but it is up to eircom whether or not to disconnect you.

What more can you say about the product?

SparkyLarks

juliuspret wrote:

SparkyLarks
Question:
Are you now or have you ever been an employee of eircom?

AFAIK eircom Time is €20 for 20hours of fast internet access.
After the 20 hours you get charged €2.40 an hour until you reach €50 in total charges or have used fast internet access for 32.5 hours in total.
After reaching €50 you will not be charged extra but it is up to eircom whether or not to disconnect you.

What more can you say about the product?

Eh no I'm not.
It's a crap product, I've posted that elsewhere.
I am playing devils advocate to the post question, do Eircom have a case to answer for ASAI. Or can The Broadband time be considered broadband.The opinion of Broadband time as a product and it's effect on the Irish Broadband market is a matter for a different thread.

My point is
The definition of broadband is difficult to reach concensus on, which makes it hard for the ASAI to decide that what Eircom is offering is not broadband.

Personally I do think Broadband time is covered by the definiton of broadband.
That is unfortunate because it is a crap product which may only benefit a niche market of people,( though they can get a more conentional Broadband product for practically the same price form other products)

So what is broadband.

IS 512 a minimum??? Don't the UK use 256.
Isn't there some definition that defines broadband as having a minimum of 2 Mbps?? in that case almost all the broadband products are in breach of advertising standards.

Personally I think the Major Issue that the Broadband time product has raised is the need for COMREG to define Broadband.

damien

SparkyLarks wrote:

If Eircom were to accept that definition of broadband, which would be suprising, they could claim as below.

You really make a poor Devil's advocate. The ASAI go by what the public believe a definition to be. The fact that the Government, ComReg and eircom themselves called broadband an always-on product and sold it as being a major advantage over dialup means that the public up to now believe broadband to be always-on.

The ASAI do not just go for text book definitions.

SparkyLarks

damien.m wrote:

You really make a poor Devil's advocate. .

Ouch , All I said was I was playing Devils advocate I never claimed to be a good one

damien.m wrote:

The ASAI go by what the public believe a definition to be. The fact that the Government, ComReg and eircom themselves called broadband an always-on product and sold it as being a major advantage over dialup means that the public up to now believe broadband to be always-on.

The ASAI do not just go for text book definitions.

True the fact the Eircom sold Broadband as being always on may hang them.
the fact that ther is a German Time based product, From what other posters have said, might just save them.

What the ASAI do is try to ensure that advertisments are "legal, decent, honest and truthful"( Eircom might have trouble with the second one). The other three all depend on the question "What is Broadband"

while the ASAI are not a law enforcement agency and do not have the same burden of proof as a court would, I would think that they will still need to come up with a definition of broadband.

How will the ASAI decide what broadband is, or percieved to be??
Will they take a poll of people on the street. Unlikely I think.
Will they examine the various definitions of broadband out there and try to reach a concensus. IMHO that is what they will do. Most definitions of braodband talk about multiple transmissions which will aid to muddy the water at the very least.

Though my point still remains. Someone has to conclusively define broadband in this country, either COMREG or the Goverment. If it had it would be likely that always-on would have been included in the definition and Eircom would never have be able to bring out a Time based product.

jor el

SparkyLarks wrote:

Though my point still remains. Someone has to conclusively define broadband in this country, either COMREG or the Goverment. If it had it would be likely that always-on would have been included in the definition and Eircom would never have be able to bring out a Time based product.

They already have. ComReg defines Broadband as

At its most basic broadband can be described as “a relatively high-level of telecommunications capacity” which offers an ‘always-on’ connection.
‘Always-on’ is an industry term that simply means that users do not need to dial-up or log-off every time they want to get on or off the Internet.

2. ‘Always-on’ – Flat-rate tariffs and a separate voice channel remove the need to continuously connect and disconnect to the Internet. The end-user can enjoy their time on the Internet without feeling ‘watched and counted’.

Which is what eircomtribunal said at the top of the page.

From reading other threads and info on this new product I really hope absolutely nobody buys it. It really is a terrible product and will do nothing but boost David McRedmond's overused and over inflated figures for broadband penetration in Ireland. It's a booby-trapped product designed to take money from unsuspecting people.

paulm17781

I still think that they can get away with it saying it is time based. They could make it data based and give a 50mb limit instead. I think it is a rubbish product but I don't think saying it is not broadband is the way to attack it.

SparkyLarks

jor el wrote:

They already have. ComReg defines Broadband as

Which is what eircomtribunal said at the top of the page.
.

Though if you look at Comreg's Definition of terms, Broadband is defined as

Broadband ? A service or connection allowing a considerable amount of information to be conveyed, such as television pictures. Generally defined as a bandwidth > 2Mbit/s
Broadband Integrated Services Digital Network (B-ISDN) ? The capability to integrate any type of communications signals (voice, data, image or multimedia) and carry them over a single broadband channel of 150-mbps and above, 4k (B-ISDN) regardless of their content.

So how is anyone in this country, Eircom ASTI or puter supposed to be certain of what is meant by the term broadband.

jor el wrote:

From reading other threads and info on this new product I really hope absolutely nobody buys it. It really is a terrible product and will do nothing but boost David McRedmond's overused and over inflated figures for broadband penetration in Ireland. It's a booby-trapped product designed to take money from unsuspecting people.

True it's a terrible product, but that doesn't make the advertising untruthful.

garthv

Wow, I sent in a complaint to the ASAI about this.....Can't believe the system actually works.......

paulm17781

I just noticed this on eircom.ie

Speeds of up to 1MB.

Thant makes it the fastest Eircom product. :rolleyes:

BoneCollector

i have not seent this advert but!
this maybe more of a bargain than you think


if this is as it states a time based package and not bandwidth then...
this mean 20 hours of unlimted downloads with no cap eh?

eircomtribunal

BoneCollector wrote:

if this is as it states a time based package and not bandwidth then...
this mean 20 hours of unlimted downloads with no cap eh?

At the theoretical most you could download around 8 gig, that would be assuming downloading continuously for 20 hours at max speed. A more realistically achievable figure would be around half of that.

This product is nothing but the attempt to gouge the uninformed.

Compare: Get BT's 40 euro per month offer (25 euros during the introductory 4 months), which includes the € 25 line rental. For some 15 euros for the broadband part you'll get a volume capped (12 gig) always on broadband product.

P.

juliuspret

If you maxed out a 1Mbit connection for the full 20hours then you could download ~7.3Gbytes.

And remember eircom knows, as they limit it to first time connections, that people will barely break the 1Gbyte CAP.

Hey lads,
We all know that eircoms Time package is a complete rip-off and an insult to anyone who takes a passing glance at places like boards.ie.
But eircom are hunting those who know no better with this and getting the blonde to shake her ass gives it a bit of sex appeal.
As a BT customer I know how much i save in the month...but only a small percentage of DSL(until know at least) customers are with BT.