Fold bottom set here?

NickyOD

$50 6 max table on the Party network. No read on the table. Sorry I couldn't convert the HH for easy reading this time for some reason.

$50 NL Hold'em
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 2: pziebell ( $87.65 )
Seat 3: crookid1 ( $31 )
Seat 4: ZenOfHoldem ( $42.05 )
Seat 5: DiamondN79 ( $51.8 ) This is me
Seat 6: shack_g ( $47.5 )
Seat 1: carlos510 ( $9.5 )

ZenOfHoldem posts small blind [$0.25].
DiamondN79 posts big blind [$0.5].

Dealt to DiamondN79 [ 5d 5s]
shack_g raises [$2].
carlos510 raises [$3.5]. nice raise asshole!
pziebell calls [$3.5].
crookid1 calls [$3.5].
ZenOfHoldem folds.
DiamondN79 calls [$3]. Not folding for that price
shack_g calls [$1.5].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, 8s, 7c] That is one ugly flop for bottom set.
DiamondN79 checks. Let's see what happens.
shack_g checks.
carlos510 is all-In [$6] Oh NOW you want to go all in. Thanks a bunch!
pziebell raises [$12].
crookid1 calls [$12].
DiamondN79 What's my move?

Rodge

Its a pretty impossible decision to make in 20 seconds.

Having no info about the table makes it doubly tough.

A rough estimation is that carlos has a pocket pair above 10 10 but may also have AK.

pziebell has the flush draw and is trying to isolate the pot so he doesnt have to pay anymore for his draw.

crookid1 is one to worry about I think. He looks like he is trying to play the hand very passively as if to say I have nothing but wull call anyway. I'd expect a big re raise on the next street from him.

I think there definitely is a valid reason to fold here and you are probably against every draw possible and possibly a made hand better than yours.

All well and good theoretically but in that circumstance a few weeks ago on a 9 Jd Qd board, I went all in with 99 and hit the last nine on the turn for a miracle one outer as I was against over trips and a str8.

roryc

Id call.

Carlos510 cant have already made his straight as he would have been holding 4 6 or 6 9. Not exactly a re-raising hand. I'd say he probably has an overpair 10s or js maybe, although he could be holding two high clubs A K or A Q and be going for the flush.

As for the pzieball id say he has A8 or maybe two clubs as he raised it to get you and crookid out. Crookid only called so he might have a pair with a straight/flush draw.

Im probably wrong on most of these as I usually am with online, but I think you have to call here and try to avoid a club on the turn or a 4,6,9 for the straight. If the turn brings crap, i'd see how they play it and probably raise big then.

NickyOD

roryc wrote:

Id call.

Carlos510 cant have already made his straight as he would have been holding 4 6 or 6 9. Not exactly a re-raising hand. I'd say he probably has an overpair 10s or js maybe, although he could be holding two high clubs A K or A Q and be going for the flush.

As for the pzieball id say he has A8 or maybe two clubs as he raised it to get you and crookid out. Crookid only called so he might have a pair with a straight/flush draw.

Im probably wrong on most of these as I usually am with online, but I think you have to call here and try to avoid a club on the turn or a 4,6,9 for the straight. If the turn brings crap, i'd see how they play it and probably raise big then.

I put carlos on AA/KK/QQ. If I put the other two on overpairs or drawing hand surely I should push now instead of flat calling? The real question here is do I have the best hand on the flop? Given the action from the other two players does one of them have 77/88?

Culchie

NickyOD wrote:

I put carlos on AA/KK/QQ. If I put the other two on overpairs or drawing hand surely I should push now instead of flat calling? The real question here is do I have the best hand on the flop? Given the action from the other two players does one of them have 77/88?

If they do ...they do, doesn't look like it so far, stick your chips in.

roryc

NickyOD wrote:

I put carlos on AA/KK/QQ. If I put the other two on overpairs or drawing hand surely I should push now instead of flat calling? The real question here is do I have the best hand on the flop? Given the action from the other two players does one of them have 77/88?

probably right yeh, may aswell push. Id just be wary of a club coming out on the turn, cos you have to think one of the is trying to fill a flush or a straight. You cant really put any of them on 77 or 88...

Iago

NickyOD wrote:

$50 6 max table on the Party network. No read on the table. Sorry I couldn't convert the HH for easy reading this time for some reason.

$50 NL Hold'em
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 2: pziebell ( $87.65 )
Seat 3: crookid1 ( $31 )
Seat 4: ZenOfHoldem ( $42.05 )
Seat 5: DiamondN79 ( $51.8 ) This is me
Seat 6: shack_g ( $47.5 )
Seat 1: carlos510 ( $9.5 )

ZenOfHoldem posts small blind [$0.25].
DiamondN79 posts big blind [$0.5].

Dealt to DiamondN79 [ 5d 5s]
shack_g raises [$2].
carlos510 raises [$3.5]. nice raise asshole!
pziebell calls [$3.5].
crookid1 calls [$3.5].
ZenOfHoldem folds.
DiamondN79 calls [$3]. Not folding for that price
shack_g calls [$1.5].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, 8s, 7c] That is one ugly flop for bottom set.
DiamondN79 checks. Let's see what happens.
shack_g checks.
carlos510 is all-In [$6] Oh NOW you want to go all in. Thanks a bunch!
pziebell raises [$12].
crookid1 calls [$12].
DiamondN79 What's my move?

Carlos, I'd put on QQ or KK, or AKc, AQc

Pziebell, I think is either on a flush/straight/both draw or has TPTK and is trying to isolate Carlos

Crookid1, I'm a little worried about. What would he call 2 raises preflop with, and then flat call a double raise on the flop with two players to act after him...including the initial raiser in the game? Made flush?

add to the fact that the initial raiser is still to act after you, you've no idea what he has...I'd fold here. Even if you're ahead at this point there are a huge number of cards that will outdraw you on the turn. Save your money for when you're in a better position

Hectorjelly

Tough one. There are some reasons I would call here;

1) There are two clubs so one of the flat calls could well be a flush draw
2) Alllthough a straight is possible its highly unlikely given the action preflop. But you could have some idiot with A6 or 66.
3) Nobody has shown that much strength on the flop. Would pziebell min raise with a set on that flop? Would crookd flat call with a set on that flop? I wouldnt do either.
4) I doubt any of your opponents are folding overpairs

The reasons I fold are:

1) 88 and 77 are quite likely holdings here
2) when you are up against a higher set your are drawing real thin

I dont think I could fold this unless I had some respect for the other players, so in the case I would call; but I have no problem with a fold.

I would be tempted to fold preflop because Im not closing the action.

NickyOD

Iago wrote:

Even if you're ahead at this point there are a huge number of cards that will outdraw you on the turn. Save your money for when you're in a better position

Mathematically there's no way I should fold if I believe I'm ahaed on the flop no matter what kind of draw they are on. 77/88 is the only range I am really worried about here. Given the action I think I should have correctly put pziebell on the bigger set. He was the table chip leader and although I had no read we're going to have to give him respect for the hand. Of course isolation on the draw was possible but when crookid (who was sitting down underfunded) smooth called HE was the one I should be putting on the draw. It's possible but highly unlikely they are both drawing. The last time I was in a situation like this it was actually set over set over set. I guess I never learned my lesson.

DiamondN79 is all-In [$48.3]
pziebell calls [$36.3].
shack_g: big pot
shack_g: do it
crookid1 is all-In [$15.5]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h]
** Dealing River ** [ 6c]
>You have options at Table 37054 (6 max) Table!.
pziebell shows [ 8d, 8h] a full house, Eights full of sixes.
>You have options at Table 36897 (6 max) Table!.
crookid1 doesn't show [ Qc, Jc] a flush, queen high.
DiamondN79 doesn't show [ 5d, 5s] a full house, Fives full of sixes.
carlos510 doesn't show [ Kc, Kh] two pairs, kings and sixes. (Thanks a bunch!)
pziebell wins $41.6 from side pot #2 with a full house, Eights full of sixes.
pziebell wins $64.5 from side pot #1 with a full house, Eights full of sixes.
pziebell wins $39.75 from the main pot with a full house, Eights full of sixes.

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

Crookid1, I'm a little worried about. What would he call 2 raises preflop with, and then flat call a double raise on the flop with two players to act after him...including the initial raiser in the game? Made flush?

Two clubs on the board - he cant have a flush.

Iago

Hectorjelly wrote:

Two clubs on the board - he cant have a flush.

ok, so I can't read or do maths, what's your point

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

Tough one. There are some reasons I would call here;

A question for Hector: Are you advocating just a flat call here? If you're going to get involved at all, surely pushing all-in (like Nicky did) makes more sense?

zonemelt

NickyOD wrote:

** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, 8s, 7c] That is one ugly flop for bottom set.
DiamondN79 checks. Let's see what happens.
shack_g checks.
carlos510 is all-In [$6] Oh NOW you want to go all in. Thanks a bunch!
pziebell raises [$12].
crookid1 calls [$12].
DiamondN79 What's my move?

Call and keep everyone in so you roughly have the odds to draw... I think you're more likely to get to see a 4-way river this way.

NickyOD

zonemelt wrote:

Call and keep everyone in so you roughly have the odds to draw... I think you're more likely to get to see a 4-way river this way.

keep evewryone in? If I'm I'm drawing I'm drawing to 1 out. If I believe I'm ahead surely now is the time to raise. You are always going to accumulate more chips by raising early especially with that kind of action. I thought this was a raise or fold situation myself.

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

A question for Hector: Are you advocating just a flat call here? If you're going to get involved at all, surely pushing all-in (like Nicky did) makes more sense?

Sorry yeah your right all in or all out

Hitman Actual

zonemelt wrote:

Call and keep everyone in so you roughly have the odds to draw... I think you're more likely to get to see a 4-way river this way.

I'm not sure about this... draw to what? If you're ahead then I think you should stick it all-in now with the best of it. If you're behind then the only card that will save you is the case 5. All-in or fold, I say.

hotspur

Stone cold fold nickey, I don't fold a set lightly but when there's that amount of preflop callers I sometimes type "ok let's play top set", the original raiser is beaten, but so are you in all likelihood with the reraise and call of it. If I were playing those limits I'd stick it in cause it's only a few quid, but if you're playing for real then it's a fold.
Rob.

NickyOD

hotspur wrote:

Stone cold fold nickey, I don't fold a set lightly but when there's that amount of preflop callers I sometimes type "ok let's play top set", the original raiser is beaten, but so are you in all likelihood with the reraise and call of it. If I were playing those limits I'd stick it in cause it's only a few quid, but if you're playing for real then it's a fold.
Rob.

agreed

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

Sorry yeah your right all in or all out

I thought that all right... just thought there might be some mad Hector-esque reason for a call!