How to strum the piano?

BossArky

As a guitarist I hear beginners always ask "but how do you do the strumming part to get that rhythm?", etc. Now the boot is on the other hoof with my keyboard playing.

I'm a better guitarist than keyboardist... and was wondering if anyone has any insightful advice about developing rhythms for keyboard / piano playing, beyond the basics of simple chords / arpedgios.

BogOak

stick to the snowboarding.

but seriously i'd like to know too.

and also: how to strum the woman?

BossArky

Hey Evin,

Check out my new board --> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=269722

I found that cd you gave me in the bottom of my bag last week. Its deadly, especially that one where you were learning to count to 10. Fair play to ya! (the song was good too by the way)

BossArky

so this forum is just full of guitarists?

BogOak

i'd consider myself more of a lothario. and a crooner. i like your new axe. i want a star-shaped one like bootsy's bass.

BogOak

nice.

fortysixand2

*shyly puts hand up* I wanna get some tips too . . .

BossArky

Anyone?

robbie1876

Right, sure I'll have a crack at fielding this question.

First things first, who do you want to play like? Is there particular keyboard patterns you have heard on recordings that you want to emulate, or do you literally just want to replace a guitar with keyboard lines?

Right, the first advice holds true for anyone playing rhythm on any instrument. Find your space in the music. When I'm figuring out what rhythm to play on keys, I'll start by listening to what the other instruments are doing, in my case bass and guitar. Between the three of us, one of us should be playing 'held' chords to define the melodic structure of the song, one of us should be 'comping', as in playing rhythmical chops to groove the song along, and the other should be either playing counter rhythm to go against the groove, or soloing.

So begin by establishing your place in the song. You don't want to be clashing grooves with either the bass or guitar, or whatever other instruments are in the band.

Now onto comping, or playing groovy rhythm keys. As with any other rhythm instrument, it's all about feel. I would recommend spending a lot of time playing simple blues based patterns to establish a good confident feel. Practice basic I-IV-I-V-IV patterns in a range of different keys, always keeping to a solid groove. I have some sheet music I practice to, if I can get my scanner working I'll post it!

Regarding chord work, you're friend here is 'open chords', meaning the ability to play the notes in a chord across a 2 octave range or more. For example, instead of playing a C chord by playing the notes C E G in thirds, leave out the E and play the note an octave higher or lower. It just makes things more interesting and also because you're playing the chord with two hands, you can comp on the chord, try playing the E on the left hand on off beats, and just the C and G on the right hand on the main beats. Thats a very simple example, but its the ability to comp on open chords over several octaves that makes the keyboards unique in a rhythm section.

Ok, next up is 'harmonic grooving'. Listen to any early Stevie Wonder stuff and you'll discover that alot of the groove is actually in the chords, even before rhythm is added. Play the chords Eb7 to Bbm7 for a flavour of what I mean. It's easy to comp on these chords because they are naturally groovy. Some thought should go into the chord structure that suits keys if you want to play rhythm on them. Playing E-A-B patterns suits guitars fine, but for more interesting keys rhythm parts, the chords could be something like E9 - C#m7/A - B13, ie naturally groovy chords for comping.

A great exercise if you play with a guitar player is to vary the comping duties between the two instruments. Use the Eb7 - Bbm7 chords, and get the guitar to play straight, toe-tapping chords on each note. Then on keys, try to comp around the guitar parts, go for a jagged feel by playing syncopated rhythms, ie the left and right hand playing on different beats and off beats. After a while, switch to keys playing the straight ahead 4 beat pattern, and get the guitar to play the comp parts. This keeps the song interesting for the listener and the players.

Right, lastly, a selection of stuff to listen to. For ideas on song structures and how keys should fit in to a rhythm roll, listen to the very best - Steely Dan. Early songs like Green Earrings, Kid Charlemagne and Peg are fantastic examples of good keyboard comping. For more exotic and jazz orientated comping, listen to early Dave Weckl Band recordings that feature the keyboardist Jay Oliver. Also worth listening to is David Paich on Toto recordings who plays a lot of rhythm keys, and of course Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles. And of course come and listen to me!

Phew, I don't know if any of the above is actually what you are looking for, but hope it helps all the same! Please feel free to ask for clarification, if I can offer more help I certainly will.

Regards,

Robbie

Elder

BossArky,

How's it goin. My name is Elder. Piano/keyboard is my main instrument. I would be able to show you a trick or two regarding rhythm, but i just dont know how to go about explaining it here. If you are interested we could hook up and I will show you. You could lend me your guitar expertise on a couple of my tracks as payment. Contact me at Elder_Roche@hotmail.com.

BossArky wrote:

As a guitarist I hear beginners always ask "but how do you do the strumming part to get that rhythm?", etc. Now the boot is on the other hoof with my keyboard playing.

I'm a better guitarist than keyboardist... and was wondering if anyone has any insightful advice about developing rhythms for keyboard / piano playing, beyond the basics of simple chords / arpedgios.

BossArky

Hi Robbie,

Thanks for the info, yep that sounds like it could be helpful alright. I suppose the main thing stopping my skills developing is lack or practice and not listening to enough piano / keyboard music. I'll take a listen to those artists you mention at the end of your post, plus work on some "comp-ing". Where does that word come from?

What kind of exercises would you recommend to get the fingers moving fluidly over the keyboard? I.e. for guitar a good way to get some dexterity is to play on one sting the following pattern with one finger per fret:

open, 1st fret, 2nd fret, 3rd fret, 4th fret, 3rd fret, 2nd fret, 1st fret, open.

robbie1876

No problem, you are welcome for the advice. Yeah, listening to music and trying to recreate the riffs you hear is one of the best ways to learn some rhythm methods.

I would describe 'comping' as rhythm playing with an improvised edge, usually the type of playing that you would do behind a melody line or solo, but played so that it supports the solo/melody.

Regarding exercices, I'm not too sure really, I never really done much work on scales or exercises when I was learning! As a starting point, learn to play the major scale in every key over a 2 octave range. It's boring I know, but some of the fingering can be tricky on the likes of an F# scale when trying to play in time at speed. Learn the melodic and harmonic minor scales, then the natural minor and dorian mode scales, and have a crack at those scales in every key.

Also, playing in intervals up and down the scales can be good for building rhythm technique. For example, in C, try playing the two notes C and G together, followed by Eb and Bb, then G and C...etc, keep moving up the keyboard and then come back down playing the same intervals. Try it in every key. Sticking with 5ths, try playing entire minor and major scales with 5ths intervals on your right hand only, it's tricky but good for fingering and dexterity.

Robbie.

BossArky

Hey Robbie. Some interesting exercises you purposed there. I'll try them out over the next few weeks and see how I progress. Thanks for the suggestions.

Fusion251

Can you read music at all? If you can a drum book is a good place to start for rhythmic variation. There are alot of excercises you can do with a metronome too, comping on the "and" of beats meaning 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND etc....It's kinda hard to explain rhythm in words, the best way to learn and pick up good rhythmic technique is to listen to it...

Some piano players with a great rhytmic variety in their playing:

• Oscar Peterson
• Chick Corea
• HERBIE HANCOCK!
• Brad Mehldau(Check out Paranoid Anderoid)

Hope this helps

Fusion

BossArky

Fusion251 wrote:

Can you read music at all?

Yeah Fusion, played tenor sax for years so got a fair idea of how to read music. However I find a piano score is a bit more complicated than a single line voice that is the usual for a saxophone.

I'll try and find some drum notation and follow your suggestion. Thanks.

Fusion251

Do you still play Tenor Sax?

BossArky

I have not actively played it for perhaps 7 years. Used to be in the town marching band, etc. Was a good laugh really. Just thinking about it.. started when I was 9 or so... stalled when finished secondary school when about 16/17. 24 now.

Soltra

Scales were the bane of my existence learning and thought they were pretty useless until I stopped practising them and found that it made a huge difference to dexterity of my left hand - because I'd be soloing and generally playing the major melodies with my right hand.

Perhaps learning to play the pentatonic scales in various different keys will help with improv, and also (although this might sound simplistic - I still have to do this) playing the scales get you prepared for what notes you are going to be hitting in that key. I can't read music so learnt by ear and like I say, a lotta scales used, pain in the ass, but effective.

Regarding rhythm, I dunno. Without meaning to sound like a total knob, you have to hear the groove of the song. Guitar wise, it's why you play arpegio or broken chords for a softer or slower song and not strumming chords. It's kinda the same with the keys. But what I would say is that unless you can get away with sharp chords, I always liked playing a walking bass line, or at least a left hand that moved. If you are looking for rhythm on the keys, I reckon look back to Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard - it's not hard to get the hang of this basic blues and the rhythmical nuances are terrific.

So, hope that's helpful but if you need a hand give us a shout.

My two cents.....

Shane Smith

hullo, I play piano & hammond, not classically but more of a blues man...

Everyone I know has asked me "how do u actually play the keys" once u figure out chords etc.

the standard as someone mentioned is leading with the right hand, left hand doing simple bass notes (see John Lennon "Imagine")

u can also lead with the left hand but the main advice I'd give is this:

Try to play a DRUM beat using your chords/hands,
eg - imagine your left hand as the kick drum and your right hand as the snare, then when u are playing a sequence you can make it move a but better as you are pretty much drumming ur way along on keys. This can be heard with best effect if actually playing with a live drummer (I say live cos its the only way...)

the rest is up to you really, whatever u can get to work creatively is all that matters....

Nidge

Thanks Robbie you taught me something and i'm not even looking to play the keyboard! The thing about the three different instruments playing different rhythms is very interesting, where did you learn that from? experience?