Jihad In Dublin

bobbyjoe

How over the top is this!!!!
http://www.jewishtelegraph.com/

IRA TARGETS ISRAEL FANS
"IRA extremists targeted Israeli football fans as Dublin was turned into a cauldron of intimidation and vitriol."

Anybody at the protest or the match?

Running Bing

Oh my god. Unbelieveable. Are some members of this board writers for that paper seriously though whats next "IRA believed to be main cause behind war in iraq"? :rolleyes:

But can anyone confirm there where people chanting Nazi salutes. I didnt hear the protest was in anyway violent on the news.If it is true it is truly hideous. If it isnt that paper should be ashamed of itself they are very serious accusations.My favourite quote is

"The presence of Sinn Fein banners, IRA supporters and Socialist Workers' members was barely concealed. A teenager, barely 16, flogged copies of Republican newspaper An Phoblacht. A Palestinian flag was draped round his back.

Floppy-haired teenagers togged out in black Nirvana and Slipknot T-shirts arrived in search of an afternoon's 'entertainment'." You would expect a jewish newspaper to be the last to use ignorant stereotypes like these and I love the way they talk about selling republican newspapers and wearing a palestininan flag as if there horrendous crimes. :rolleyes:

netwhizkid

Now i don't condone terrorism, as a matter of fact i detest it, but what can the Israelis expect anywhere they go, They are illegally ocuping another country, over reiligious belifs ! Now they suffered under Hitler and all but that dosen't give them the right to act like Hitler to the Palestinians and Muslims in the Area, Like as a Christian Country you don't see ireland or any other country for that matter marching into the holy land and taking it over. These Israelis are a bigger threat to world peace than anyone yes even dubya poses less of a threat than them. If there was a republican element involved in these protests its because they sympatise with the palestinians plight, they and the irish cause is very similar, country occupied, persecuted for religious beliefs etc.

Regards netwhizkid

bus77

I think it's a ****ing disgrace to do that to people going to a football match.

murphaph

bus77 wrote:

I think it's a ****ing disgrace to do that to people going to a football match.

Yup. I agree. It's a match and respect should be shown to our visitors.

tim3115

Respect should not be shown in certain circumstances though, no?

Red Alert

Why don't the Israeli's show respect to the wives and families of the men who they have killed or imprisoned? Together with their financial and ideological allies in the US, they act with impunity in the disputed territories. I agree they had to be let go somewhere after the second world war, but that doesn't mean that they can now oppress what was a civilisation lasting centuries.

Anybody is entitled to protest provided they act within the bounds of the law. Whether or not a soccer match was taking place on the same day makes no material difference to the legality of the protest. I deplore anti-Semitism, and all acts that stem from it such as attacking Jewish Cemeteries, Jewish Schools and the Jewish Museum. However, the Israeli population and their government (as opposed to the Jewish Religion) are a legitimate protest target, just as George W. Bush is.

oscarBravo

Red Alert wrote:

Why don't the Israeli's show respect to the wives and families of the men who they have killed or imprisoned? Together with their financial and ideological allies in the US, they act with impunity in the disputed territories.

The Israeli football team do?

I deplore anti-Semitism... However...

Here we go.

...the Israeli population and their government (as opposed to the Jewish Religion) are a legitimate protest target, just as George W. Bush is.

You missed a bit: the part where it's ok to harangue American tourists because you disagree with GWB.

Right?

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote:

You missed a bit: the part where it's ok to harangue American tourists because you disagree with GWB.

Right?

Spot on-one rule for one bunch of civilians and another for a different bunch. The fcuking football team and fans are not a legitimate target for political protests. Go protest outside the embassy, that's fine. This nonsense was out of order. Sport can be a great leveller of people and politics should stay he fcuk out of it.

I wonder how some of the pro-supporter posters on here would like being abused by people because of IRA terrorism even though they've (probably) got nothing to do with it!

Orizio

Now i don't condone terrorism, as a matter of fact i detest it, but what can the Israelis expect anywhere they go,

Respect?

They are illegally ocuping another country, over reiligious belifs !

There was no Palestian country.Do you remember the war they fought and won for that imaginary palestianian country?

Now they suffered under Hitler and all

Oh jesus... :rolleyes:

but that dosen't give them the right to act like Hitler to the Palestinians

From ridicoulus understatement to ridicoulus overstatement in one sentance.Quite an achievement.

Like as a Christian Country you don't see ireland or any other country for that matter marching into the holy land and taking it over.

Well we did see that about a half a dozen times over the last 1000 years.Nor does Ireland have any right to the holy land.Quite clearly the Jewish people do.They have history there and won a war for it.

These Israelis are a bigger threat to world peace than anyone yes even dubya poses less of a threat than them.

I'm afraid China,the US,Russia and about a dozen other countries are far more dangerous then Isreal.

If there was a republican element involved in these protests its because they sympatise with the palestinians plight, they and the irish cause is very similar, country occupied, persecuted for religious beliefs etc.

Yes i can see how some republicans would sympathise with the pals plight of blowin up jewish school buses.

Not that i would if a IRA sniper made the Isreali keeper really scream with pain...(only kidding,only kidding)

murphaph

Orizio wrote:

There was no Palestian country.Do you remember the war they fought and won for that imaginary palestianian country?

No but I remember the wars they inflicted on Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. They didn't need a war to settle Palestine cos the Brits were spineless and handed it over to 'em in '48.

Orizio wrote:

Quite clearly the Jewish people do.

One word, boll0cks. The 'Jewish people'??? What are you on? Judaism is a relgion. No poxy religion is entitled to fcuking anywhere. I'm fcuking sick of over zealous religious types going on about their birthrights. We're human beings first and foremeost, not whatever religion we happen to be BORN into. I was born into catholicism but I've since opted out cos I think it's all sh!te. Religions are just cults that catch on!

Orizio wrote:

They have history there and won a war for it.

I'm sure they made God really happy with that.

Nuttzz

murphaph wrote:

No but I remember the wars they inflicted on Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. They didn't need a war to settle Palestine cos the Brits were spineless and handed it over to 'em in '48.

When Isreal declared declared itself as an independent nation approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 6,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 5,500 Egyptian, 6,000-9,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

inflicted my ass, it was self defence

murphaph

Nuttzz wrote:

inflicted my ass, it was self defence

If they had just settled in Palestine that might have been ok, but they had to declare it 'their' land and steal it from the folks who'd lived there. Naturally the allies of the pallestinians were going to defend their right to exist where they'd existed for a long time before boat loads of zionists arrived from europe.

Call Me Jimmy

very interesting thread I think hitler salutes to the isreal fans is a tad out of order, who's to say these isrealis that came to dublin weren't against israel's 'involvement' in palestine? They're just people comin to see the game

sceptre

tim3115 wrote:

Respect should not be shown in certain circumstances though, no?

Like when, Tim? Specifically when where it involves travelling soccer supporters?

county

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

very interesting thread I think hitler salutes to the isreal fans is a tad out of order, who's to say these isrealis that came to dublin weren't against israel's 'involvement' in palestine? They're just people comin to see the game

a tad out of order,are you on drugs its totally unacceptable and if this is the case FIFA should punish tha irish FA

AmenToThat

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

very interesting thread I think hitler salutes to the isreal fans is a tad out of order,

Of course it is, assuming you believe that article.
Iv seen more objective reporting in the Sunday Independent which is saying something!

county

netwhizkid wrote:

Now i don't condone terrorism, as a matter of fact i detest it, but what can the Israelis expect anywhere they go, They are illegally ocuping another country, over reiligious belifs ! Now they suffered under Hitler and all but that dosen't give them the right to act like Hitler to the Palestinians and Muslims in the Area, If there was a republican element involved in these protests its because they sympatise with the palestinians plight, they and the irish cause is very similar, country occupied, persecuted for religious beliefs etc.

Regards netwhizkid

have the israelis gased 6 million muslims i dont think so and for the quote(country occupied) what sort of crap is that,are you a SF spokesperson or what?

sceptre

county wrote:

a tad out of order,are you on drugs its totally unacceptable

Well-known sardonic turn of phrase to mean exactly what you said, kiddo. Often phrased as "er, yeah, <brief pause> just a tad <face that says "wtf?">"

If you read the first version of this post you'd have noticed I left you off with a warning for the "are you on drugs or what" thing but for just doing basically the same thing again in your next post, regardless of my warning coming after both and effectively not being on time, you can take a two week ban for attacking posters willy-nilly. Not a playground and it's flaming that we can do without.

sceptre

Now, actually on topic, the picture on the front page there is taken from an interesting angle that shows a few people that could be on their own or surrounded by thousands of supporters. The headline is terrible ("IRA TARGETS ISRAEL FANS") given that there are plenty of idiots who support the IRA from the comfort of their armchairs who don't know any members and these would appear to be (in the absence of any other evidence) the charming individuals who are accused of doing the nazi wavey-wavey. And the Gardai appear to be investigating the incident and the alleged behaviour of their members. Not that I'm all that confident of a good investigation into the latter after events in places like Dublin city centre and county Donegal but I'd be interested to hear the extent of the incident(s) which the article doesn't bother to quantify (in favour of using the word "cauldron", cauldrons are generally pretty small in my local area).

Having said that, the actions of these particular guys were deplorable and completely unacceptable. Without knowing how many people there were doing this, though, I'll run with the expected "there are stupid people everywhere, especially here" view.

Ajnag

Oh the poor things, the humanity.
Now if only we could get our papers to publish everytime a poor person from this land was subject to abuse on the basis of nationality.

self-pity?
Im not gonna say anything lest I be called....an anti-semite :eek:
(well I couldnt be called a racist lest that offend the poor things, some forms of racism are more equal then others you know)

netwhizkid

This is an illegal occupation by the israeli army, who will take take no notice of shooting anything that is not already dead, wheter it be a 3 week old palestinian baby in a pram, or a british journalist, i vauguly remember a few yrs ago they shot a british journalist who i think later died. There was some one or two palestinians "terrorists" in the Israeli eyes, send to Ireland not so long ago there was mossad agents send here to kill them, if they succceded innocent irish bystanders could also become targets inadvertantly. Why is nearly all of the worlds wars caused by Religion ? (well modern wars are caused by crooked corporations eg. Iraq, Us oil companies bought dubya's votes for him. Millions of people have died and more will encount of Religion, As a non-practising catholic, i view this as a disgrace, i myself was brought up catholic and would never go to war against someone because of their Religion, I would however go against great evil and injustice, World Religions like Judaism is based of fiction, we have no proof, we are here like the fishes, we live and we die and thats it, Watching "The real da vinci code Documentary last night on Discovery only steadfastened by belief that all Religion is a sham, Especially catholicism, We wan't to heal relations with other religions waht do we do we make an evil-nazi pope ! Come on people its all bull so why should we fight over it. The Israeli occupation is driven by Jewish zealots and them stupid americans backing them up, I retact my previous statment, America is the greatest threat to the World :- Enviornement and Politics, they are literally ruining the world as we speak,

Regards netwhizkid

Ronan|Raven

I was at the match and witnessed what went on before the game at no time did I hear people chanting IRA related messages or Nazi Salutes. Notto say it may not have happenened but from what I heard saw in the 4 hours leading upto the game all I it seemed to be was a peaceful demonstration.

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

inflicted my ass, it was self defence

so whats thier excuse for current day events?

Red Alert

An embassy is the correct place to protest, a soccer ground is not.

Israel was only created as they had nowhere to go. The Palestinian civilisation was already domiciled there. It wasn't like Ireland where the population was here already but (many) wanted independence from the UK.

It seems to be ok for people to be in favour of israel doing whatever it wants. How are they any different to the former Serbian government?

Orizio

No but I remember the wars they inflicted on Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. They didn't need a war to settle Palestine cos the Brits were spineless and handed it over to 'em in '48.

Yes i remember when they were attacked by Arab counties primarly over the plaestine and then gave them a wuping.If you were Isreali would you not have defended yourself,your families and your homes?

One word, boll0cks. The 'Jewish people'??? What are you on? Judaism is a relgion. No poxy religion is entitled to fcuking anywhere. I'm fcuking sick of over zealous religious types going on about their birthrights. We're human beings first and foremeost, not whatever religion we happen to be BORN into. I was born into catholicism but I've since opted out cos I think it's all sh!te. Religions are just cults that catch on

I should have said Isreali rather then Jewish.Does this mean the Isrealis have no rigthts over the holy land?Nope.

so whats thier excuse for current day events?

There is no excuse for the entrapment of the palestianian people by the Isrealis now.Nor is there any excuse for the near brainwashing of Pal children and the blowing up of Isreali school buses by pal 'fighters'.But the general concensus in Ireland and elsewhere is that the Pals have a moral right to fight the way they do,the romaticised feeling towards the PLO and Hamas that exists in Ireland and Europe must go.Both sides are as desperate and stubborn as each other.

Hobbes

Orizio wrote:

There is no excuse for the entrapment of the palestianian people by the Isrealis now.Nor is there any excuse for the near brainwashing of Pal children and the blowing up of Isreali school buses by pal 'fighters'.But the general concensus in Ireland and elsewhere is that the Pals have a moral right to fight the way they do,the romaticised feeling towards the PLO and Hamas that exists in Ireland and Europe must go.Both sides are as desperate and stubborn as each other.

Its not that at all, and in fact that little speech gets tiring everytime it gets spouted. Next you will be calling people anti-semetic.

Tell me what is the difference between blowing up school buses and firing missiles into a market place? Or burying people alive in thier own homes, or prehaps stealing the land since 9/11 and then giving a little back and claiming it is a sign of peace? Or how about sanctioning assasinations and pre-emptive attacks? Rounding people up and detaining them without rights.

You can go on about the horrible Hamas brainwashing the children, but when you have an enemy that is living up to that brainwashing you have to ask who is causing the problem for who.

murphaph

Hobbes wrote:

Its not that at all, and in fact that little speech gets tiring everytime it gets spouted. Next you will be calling people anti-semetic.

Tell me what is the difference between blowing up school buses and firing missiles into a market place? Or burying people alive in thier own homes, or prehaps stealing the land since 9/11 and then giving a little back and claiming it is a sign of peace? Or how about sanctioning assasinations and pre-emptive attacks? Rounding people up and detaining them without rights.

You can go on about the horrible Hamas brainwashing the children, but when you have an enemy that is living up to that brainwashing you have to ask who is causing the problem for who.

Ditto. The actions of both sides is remarkably similar however one side claims to be a sovereign democratic state and claims the other side are a bunch of terrorists.

Moriarty

I agree with parts of what you said, but other things I'm going to take issue with.

Hobbes wrote:

Tell me what is the difference between blowing up school buses and firing missiles into a market place?

The intention of the aggressors, perhaps? How often do the Israelis fire missiles into crowded markets compared to hitting militants in areas where less colateral damage can be expected? How often do palestinians blow themselves up or start shooting people down in "target rich" environments? There is a marked difference, whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not.

Hobbes wrote:

Or how about sanctioning assasinations and pre-emptive attacks?

The two sides are in a permanent state of low intensity warfare. In that sort of situation, I really don't see how assassinations or pre-emptive attacks are somehow beyond the pale.

Victor

Red Alert wrote:

An embassy is the correct place to protest, a soccer ground is not.

But the embassy is just down the street from the soccer ground ....

They have history there and won a war for it.

Since when has winning a war made someone/something right? By your logic, if the Nazis* had won WWII .....

No, that rule doesn't apply, because the Nazis were mentioned already.

Hobbes

Moriarty wrote:

The intention of the aggressors, perhaps? How often do the Israelis fire missiles into crowded markets compared to hitting militants in areas where less colateral damage can be expected?

More then anyone claiming to have the moral highground should. Lets not forget dropping bombs on apartment blocks to kill 1 person in it or putting roadside bombs in places where children play just to kill one person (and then claim Hamas did it when it kills children). But hey you can't make omellettes and all that.

There is a marked difference, whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not.

There is no difference in my opinion. Once you treat civillians as just something that gets in your way to your getting your point across you are no better then those that you fight.

The two sides are in a permanent state of low intensity warfare. In that sort of situation, I really don't see how assassinations or pre-emptive attacks are somehow beyond the pale.

And that makes them ok? I don't follow your logic here.

Capt'n Midnight

IRA peoples have trained with the PLO in Libya.
Nazi means National Socialists whereas the IRA describe themselves as .. oh yeah :rolleyes:

Considering what has happened in the middle east , people in refuge camps six decades later, people deprived of running water in a country that considers itself first world, I'm tired of anti-semitism being blown out of proportion. I've become immune to it with complaints over Swedish art and every LITTLE thing. It's been counter productive - cry wolf too often and no one will respond when something out of proportion happens. By out of proportion I mean when anti-semitic acts out side isreal are worse than the acts commited against the palestinians.

As for it being their country - for most of the last 1,500 years most of the population were non-jewish. The poles have a better calim to Kiev. Should we rule Scotland / British Isles because our ancestors used to live there ?

And there are some non-jews on the team too.

Let's face it the news is about the IRA hijacking something and the less publicity that goes to that shower the better. Will never forgive the sucm that chanted their slogans during the minutes silence for Omagh in front of the cameras.

Anyway storm in a tea-cup - Just the media doing a disservice

Estelle Manton of Ireland's Jewish Representative Council insisted: "I'm sure that the police were aware of those perpetrating it [the trouble]. The police do not tolerate any antisemitism."

Any trouble was dismissed by the rally's organisers, the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who described it as "a good-humoured event".

Orizio

Tell me what is the difference between blowing up school buses and firing missiles into a market place? Or burying people alive in thier own homes, or prehaps stealing the land since 9/11 and then giving a little back and claiming it is a sign of peace? Or how about sanctioning assasinations and pre-emptive attacks? Rounding people up and detaining them without rights.

You can go on about the horrible Hamas brainwashing the children, but when you have an enemy that is living up to that brainwashing you have to ask who is causing the problem for who.

Tell me:did you bother reading the post your attempting to reply to?

Did you happen to miss this...

Orizio wrote:

There is no excuse for the entrapment of the palestianian people by the Isrealis now

Or how about...

Orizio wrote:

Both sides are as desperate and stubborn as each other.

Tell me what is the difference between blowing up school buses and firing missiles into a market place?

Do you mean when Isreal is trying to kill high ranking Hamas officials to stop Hamas from blowing up innocent Isreali 6 year old? :rolleyes:

Rounding people up and detaining them without rights.

Or how about the PLO not only rounding up dissidents but executing them?

You seem to be under the impression that I don't grasp the full extent Isreali's terrorizing of the Palestian people.I do as is blindingly obvious from my above posts.

Time Magazine

netwhizkid wrote:

This is an illegal occupation by the israeli army,

Do you mean unjust as opposed to illegal?

It is perfectly legal to protest when a football team arrive, not necessarily just though.

And similarly, it is perfectly legal for America to veto an unanimously backed international motion against Israel's occupation.

Moriarty

Hobbes wrote:

More then anyone claiming to have the moral highground should.

The "moral highground" is a political policy. Attacking militants with guided missiles in areas likely to kill civilians is most certainly a security policy. I'm not the one with the schism here, it's the Israeli cabinet. I most certainly do not agree with a lot of policys that come out of there.

Hobbes wrote:

There is no difference in my opinion. Once you treat civillians as just something that gets in your way to your getting your point across you are no better then those that you fight.

And what really makes you think that the Israelis care more about that than protecting their citizens? It's fine to have nice academic arguments over here about it, but it's Israelis that are getting blown up and then palastinians getting shot dead in response. They're in a state of war in their minds, international opinion is rather further down the list of priorities than the security of their people.

Hobbes wrote:

And that makes them ok? I don't follow your logic here.

I have no qualms about Israelis blowing up militants of varying sorts, just as I have no qualms about palastinians blowing up any IDF that stray into their sights. I feel no need to lump one side or the other into the 'good' or 'evil' category. They're both doing things that they shouldn't be doing. They both have their reasons for doing them. I may disagree with those reasons, but they're obviously good enough for them to continue fighting.

Apportioning blame is irrelevant, not to mention verging on analytical masturbation. The only relevant thing is how to get them to stop. Getting them to stop is, at the end of the day, entirely removed from any military tactics either side followed during the conflict.

murphaph

Moriarty wrote:

The only relevant thing is how to get them to stop. Getting them to stop is, at the end of the day, entirely removed from any military tactics either side followed during the conflict.

Well I don't think it is to be honest but I also don't think there will ever be peace between Israelis and Palestinians. There are too many extremists, however the best move would be to enrich the lot of Palestine because poverty does breed terrorism: Destitute boy x has nothing to live for in his eyes, rich Saudi funded terrorists tell him his family will want for nothing if he martyrs himself, boy x blows up schoolbus y.

halkar

Sports and politics shouldn't miss, there are other days all around year for protests. International events like this should be a time to put differences aside and enjoy for both sides and others. Remember, we might have to go there again sometime and things like these might get forgiven but won't be forgotten.

That aside, not sure if anyone noticed but it was one of the roughest games I have witnessed, usually Irish games are calm and enjoyable but I thought it was turning in to boxing near the end of the game. Still can't beleive we didn't win though.

AmenToThat

halkar wrote:

Sports and politics shouldn't miss, there are other days all around year for protests. International events like this should be a time to put differences aside and enjoy for both sides and others. Remember, we might have to go there again sometime and things like these might get forgiven but won't be forgotten.

Comes back to my earlier argument being that that article is a baised crock of ****!
I have no doubts there was a few clowns doing nazi salutes around Lansdowne raod last sat which is totally unecaplable but the groups involved in the protest and indeed the aims of the protest were and are in my view perfectly acceptable.
If the Isrealis have a problem with that I would suggest that its an issue for them to deal with and not 'us' so to speak.
Nothing to be forgiven for and nothing to be forgotten about as the article is nothing but lies and propoganda.

Running Bing

unbelievable. I cannot believe some people are actually defending isareals behaviour in the past. Anybody who defends israels actions has no knowledge of the situation beyond scewed biased western reporting.


Dont get me wrong actions of groups such as the PLO are absolutely horrendous but no way are israel an innocent victim.

the palestinian people have been treated disgracefully in the past not only by israel but by the likes of great britian and america purely down to its fear of islam and the jewish vote.


the protest was basically about the palestinians right of return and nobody in their right mind who knows the facts could deny them that. ALthough on this board I wouldnt be surprised.

bonkey

Babybing wrote:

Anybody who defends israels actions has no knowledge of the situation beyond scewed biased western reporting.

Or are using a similar line of reasoning to those who have defended Palestinian actions.

Both sides are taking a very simple line of "we will do what we feel we must". Both sides have fought - and continue to fight - dirty.

Dont get me wrong actions of groups such as the PLO are absolutely horrendous but no way are israel an innocent victim.

But.....

the palestinian people have been treated disgracefully in the past not only by israel but by the likes of great britian and america purely down to its fear of islam and the jewish vote.

So? Does this mitigates their horrendous behaviour in some way? Or is there some reason you mention their disgraceful treatment and not that of the Jews, and subsequently the Israelis?

I mean - you're not trying to suggest one is more entitled to act disgracefully or something, are you?

the protest was basically about the palestinians right of return and nobody in their right mind who knows the facts could deny them that.

So are you saying that the Israeli's en masse are not in their right mind, or that they just don't know the facts? In either case, I don't see what the aim of the protest was. Was it saying "you're all out of your minds", or was it saying "you don't know the facts"?

I don't see anything regarding the protest making either of those messages clear, so if thats the justification you're offering, it would seem that the protest was either a p1ss-poor attempt at getting its intended message across, or has been the victim of some sort of media conspiracy to ensure that the truth is suppressed. I don't find either line of reasoning compelling, so I'm inclined to question the suggestion that the protest had the intention you say.

ALthough on this board I wouldnt be surprised.

So are you suggesting that posters here are out of their minds, or just that they must be misinformed because they disagree with you?

jc

Seaneh

netwhizkid wrote:

This is an illegal occupation by the israeli army, who will take take no notice of shooting anything that is not already dead, wheter it be a 3 week old palestinian baby in a pram, or a british journalist, i vauguly remember a few yrs ago they shot a british journalist who i think later died. There was some one or two palestinians "terrorists" in the Israeli eyes, send to Ireland not so long ago there was mossad agents send here to kill them, if they succceded innocent irish bystanders could also become targets inadvertantly. Why is nearly all of the worlds wars caused by Religion ? (well modern wars are caused by crooked corporations eg. Iraq, Us oil companies bought dubya's votes for him. Millions of people have died and more will encount of Religion, As a non-practising catholic, i view this as a disgrace, i myself was brought up catholic and would never go to war against someone because of their Religion, I would however go against great evil and injustice, World Religions like Judaism is based of fiction, we have no proof, we are here like the fishes, we live and we die and thats it, Watching "The real da vinci code Documentary last night on Discovery only steadfastened by belief that all Religion is a sham, Especially catholicism, We wan't to heal relations with other religions waht do we do we make an evil-nazi pope ! Come on people its all bull so why should we fight over it. The Israeli occupation is driven by Jewish zealots and them stupid americans backing them up, I retact my previous statment, America is the greatest threat to the World :- Enviornement and Politics, they are literally ruining the world as we speak,

Regards netwhizkid

I'm sorry but that was tripe.

Very few wars are caused by religion.
A lot of wars are caused by greed and idiotic nationalistic pirde disugised as religion.

Running Bing

Listen basically bonkey what my post boils down to is the palestinians right of return. I can defend neither side in this dirty war and i am not trying to. Nor am I trying to justify palestinian actions.

But you do not outline a stance on the issue Im talking about. Do you or do you not agree that palestinians are entitled to right of return? After all thats what the protest was originally about not a hatred of jews or justification of palestinian millitants.

Davei141

Nothing is worse than people turning sport into a political football.

murphaph

Davei141 wrote:

Nothing is worse than people turning sport into a political football.

lol

Tha Gopher

Orizio wrote:

I'm afraid China,the US,Russia and about a dozen other countries are far more dangerous then Isreal.



Yes i can see how some republicans would sympathise with the pals plight of blowin up jewish school buses.

The irony that you make fun of one poster for making what you see as generic rubbish comments about genocide etc then go off on a rant about blowing up Jewish schoolbuses? How long has it been since a Palestinian deliberately blew up a bus full only of Israeli schoolchildren?
Who exactly is the Russian government a threat to? Rogue scientists yes, but the government?
If you are going to make fun of other posters, please attempt to at least pretend you know what you are talking about

The arguement for Israel as a home for the Jews is tenous at best. As one poster said, are the Jews even really a race anymore? In the 2000 odd years from when they left Israel to 1945, they intermarried with the peoples of the locales they fled to to such an extent that today they are virtually identical physical feature speaking. If they were still one race, a Russian Jew would have the same complexion of one from Ethiopia. They dont. Why? Because they havent had an ancestor who resembles a person from the middle east for centuries. Even if they were still 100% descended from the original Jews, so what? The Celts originated in and around Austria- it doesnt mean we have the right to go back to Austria, throw the Austrians out and form our own state because the Brits oppressed us for 800 years. Northern Ireland had severe civil rights problems until recent years. Would it have been acceptable for thousands of Catholics to flee N.I for Austria in the 60s and 70s, then form rebel groups there to force the natives out and seize power? Do not attempt to say it is a completely different context, it isnt.

And on the subject of football, the Arab who plays for Israel is a disgrace

bonkey

Babybing wrote:

Listen basically bonkey what my post boils down to is the palestinians right of return.

Yes. I got that. It was the "unboiled form" of the message that I was questioning though.

But you do not outline a stance on the issue Im talking about.

Perhaps thats because it wasn't your stance I necessarily took exception with, but rather how you chose to express it - which interestingly is pretty much the same type of criticism that has mostly been levelled at the protest in question.

swimtwobirds

Tha Gopher wrote:

The arguement for Israel as a home for the Jews is tenous at best. As one poster said, are the Jews even really a race anymore?

Am I the only one feeling a little quesy at that?

Tha Gopher wrote:

Even if they were still 100% descended from the original Jews, so what? The Celts originated in and around Austria- it doesnt mean we have the right to go back to Austria, throw the Austrians out and form our own state because the Brits oppressed us for 800 years.

oh come on. This is a slightly different kettle of fish no? In any event, were the Irish to have attempted such, I doubt Truman would have been inclined to formally recognize the state, as he did with Israel. I'm not madly well informed on this, but I have a personal, sortof instinctive belief in the jewish birthright to the Israeli state. Their be-times treatment of the palestinians is another matter. Sharon's 'liquidation' speech springs to mind. Its worth noting too, that there are a lot of secular jews in Israel, who have a pretty uneasy co-existence with the ultra orthodox elements. They just live & work there.

bonkey

swimtwobirds wrote:

I'm not madly well informed on this, but I have a personal, sortof instinctive belief in the jewish birthright to the Israeli state.

At a guess, it wouldn't be unrelated to the fact that said state has existed for your entire lifetime.

Am I the only one feeling a little quesy at that?

Most certainly not. I'm sure there's every reaction from pracdtically standing up and applauding to wanting the guy to die horribly for being so anti-semitic by people who've read this post, or something similar which has said the same thing in the past.

I guess it depends on why it makes you feel queasy. Do you believe a religion and a race/people are the same thing? Or - at least in the case of the Israeli Jews - that they're close enough? What would this then say about Jews of a comparable origin but who choose not to be or become Israeli?

jc

bonkey

swimtwobirds wrote:

This is a slightly different kettle of fish no?

Can you explain why?

In any event, were the Irish to have attempted such, I doubt Truman would have been inclined to formally recognize the state, as he did with Israel.

And? Are you suggesting that the Jewish right to Israel as a nation is somehow dependant on the state being recognised by the US. Surely all Truman did was help ensure its existence....he neither validated nor invalidated the right of the Jewish people to have that state. Unless, of course, we accept that American support for something makes it right. After all, they've leant their support to some fairly horrific things and people in their time.

jc

Zombrex

swimtwobirds wrote:

I have a personal, sortof instinctive belief in the jewish birthright to the Israeli state. Their be-times treatment of the palestinians is another matter. Sharon's 'liquidation' speech springs to mind. Its worth noting too, that there are a lot of secular jews in Israel, who have a pretty uneasy co-existence with the ultra orthodox elements. They just live & work there.

I disagree with you about the birth-right thingy (anyway it is seem more as a "promise from God" than an issue of birth right)

But you are spot on about a large number of secular Israelis who oppose the current actuion in Palestine. Even some members of the army have refused to be stationed in Palestine, and faced accusations of being disturters and traitors because of it. Good on them

Zombrex

swimtwobirds wrote:

Am I the only one feeling a little quesy at that?

He is right, the idea of "race" as a biological distinction doesn't hold water anymore, it has very little scientific basis. So what we used to call "race" is really just social/cultural/religious groups. So what makes a person a "Jew" if it is more than simply a religious following?

And if it is simply a religion following, saying one religion has more of a right to a piece of land because of the beliefs of that religion doesn't really fly in this day and age, especially if the religion claims that they are promised the land. I don't think the Muslims in the middle east give a flying hoot about what Jewish people believe their god promised them any more than Jews would listen to Muslims if they said Allah wanted them to take back all of Isreal.