Hand On the Hip Disuss Cons and Pros

Millionaire

Inspired BY PMA in another thread.

Ok goal of this thread is to discuss the hand on the hip of trad MA, and the Cons and More Cons..err sorry typo I meant Pros of putting the hands on the hip and punching from there.

Boy this thread will be fun..

Ok Ill go first...

as most know I am from kickboxing background and now am KM and also have done TMA too like Pai Lum Kung FU in fire dragon years ago, TKD, some shotokan.

I see no value or use in putting or punching with your hand on the hip. It leaves you open for an almighty crack in the head. TMA says you get more power, I say not, you can get great power from hand up stance. Mike Tyson does not do hand on hip. and i'll also say I think 80% of TMA have no clue to why they put hand no hip and do it cause big asian sensi said to ( or 10 knuckle push ups if you don't!)

Hands up boxing style or in front of you like in KM. You are covered well, you got just as much power if not more. you are nearer target. it is more natural to protect your head.

Ok lads you got the soap box, lets see what we can come up with!

Roper

There are pros?

Ger Healy

Did someone say there was pros?

memphis

Interesting!!

We were going through our patterns at training last night, trying to draw light on the purpose(s) of the movements in each, and this question came up.

There are obviously more than one possible reasons for this. But one which is a possible reason is....

Kinda hard to explain, but think of it as if you are doing 2 punches while stepping back, each time bringing the hand to the hip. Firstly you punch to the head or it could be used as a grab... you grab his arm, and pull him towards you, hence why the hand goes to the hip, then step back and execute a punch.

Hope that sounds clear, am a bit confused by that explaination myself now!

soma

Millionaire I think you may find you'll have no one to 'argue' with..

dlofnep

Hand on the hip is silly.. Very silly. It's not going to increase your punching power and it leaves you open for a shot to the face.

Damo W

memphis wrote:

Interesting!!

We were going through our patterns at training last night, trying to draw light on the purpose(s) of the movements in each, and this question came up.

There are obviously more than one possible reasons for this. But one which is a possible reason is....

Kinda hard to explain, but think of it as if you are doing 2 punches while stepping back, each time bringing the hand to the hip. Firstly you punch to the head or it could be used as a grab... you grab his arm, and pull him towards you, hence why the hand goes to the hip, then step back and execute a punch.

Hope that sounds clear, am a bit confused by that explaination myself now!

As memphis said consider the closed fist representing holding something, say wrist. (but doesn't have to be maybe holding hair, cheek, piece of flesh, ear etc)

In karate-do there are two main types of pull back 'hikite' full twist and no twist where the hand remains facing down..'kakie' drills and 'muchimi' sensitivity drills.

Pulling on the wrist will create a specilic response in your opponent knowing this response you can then exploit it. The response will vary on the intensity of the pull

Also, when you are holding something the power of an impact is increased as opposed to the item being free to move away and absorb the power.

The complimentary item to this is, not to think of the fist being the impact area, the punch remains the same but possibly its a bicep bump with the arm...

[if the hand is open at your hip or chest possibly it represents holding something larger say further up the arm]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong just another consideration.

Damien
(sorry for the brevity just headin out the door )

TwoKingMick

But if you place your hand on a young ladies hip in one of your fancy dischotechs, and she doesn't move away dissapprovingly, it means you could well be in.

memphis

TwoKingMick wrote:

But if you place your hand on a young ladies hip in one of your fancy dischotechs, and she doesn't move away dissapprovingly, it means you could well be in.

LMFAO

very funny Mick. You might be onto a winner there ok. But I think the OP was refering to hands on hip in martial Arts only. Ah well!!!!

Roper

TwoKingMick wrote:

But if you place your hand on a young ladies hip in one of your fancy dischotechs, and she doesn't move away dissapprovingly, it means you could well be in.

Hmmm, and after this one may utilise the "hip twist" motion to "boogey on down" and impress her with ones dancing skills. I dig it!

As for pulling while striking, why would you pull them to your hip? Why not towards your face where your hands are more likely to be? Oh wait, the other hans by your hip so........ ugh....

Leave the hip stuff in the historical patterns I say. Helps you stay pretty.

Naos

As mentioned No one will really argue with you over this.
Your open for a severe blow to the head, so its not much use.
Also it feels(for me) more comfortable when hands are up, easier to grab hold of person, rotation of body etc.

Best thing to do is watch the lads in UFC,k1 or my preference PrideFC. They are the best fighters in the world. They dont use these techniques, so they obviously dont work in the real world.

Cake Fiend

Horses for courses, folks. Hand to hip is used in basics only. It might be partly to get people used to using both arms together to improve body/hip rotation, it could be to get people used to more of a range of motion with the arms, it could be purely for a stylized look for uniformity. Who knows. The fact is, you won't see a karateka/TKD guy/whatever actually fight like that. Just like we don't fight in low stances or hold out the arm after punching like we do in basics.

As for it being useful, the only reasons I can think of for it are above.

dlofnep

Sico wrote:

Horses for courses, folks. Hand to hip is used in basics only. It might be partly to get people used to using both arms together to improve body/hip rotation, it could be to get people used to more of a range of motion with the arms, it could be purely for a stylized look for uniformity. Who knows. The fact is, you won't see a karateka/TKD guy/whatever actually fight like that. Just like we don't fight in low stances or hold out the arm after punching like we do in basics.

As for it being useful, the only reasons I can think of for it are above.

If they are not used when they fight, then they are redundant, no? And if so, why would you want someone to start with basics that will give you a bad foundation.

Millionaire

Well put 2 king Mick. then only hips my hands will be going on is a nice young lady..if I can get one! ha ha going to local pub tonight so no chance there!

It think putting hand on hip is a total waste of time, even for beginner, why start a bad habit.

Ok so established my majority on here hand on hip is BS.

So why do some many systems stil do it. even kenpo which is supposed to be a modern street prientated system does it and horse stances too. karate, TKD, kung FU all do it...why why why if it leaves you so open?

Ok some TMA people cover up when sparring but back to hips for training, why bother, why waste your time?


Any kenpo heads on here to comment on this?

Dyr

Only valid reason ive ever heard for hands to be down near the hips is weapon retention on a belt

Millionaire

Belts are or holding up your pants! lol


yes good point bambi, i take it that is traditional weapon?

Naos

Aye.
Used in JiuJitsu and Judo anyway.
Used during hold downs, and there is a choke with the belt too, Obi-Jime.

Musashi

Believe it or not here's one way it may be useful?

Holster testing

Obviously that one is crap but with a decent piece of leather there may still be some utility there for folks in harms way?

Dyr

Millionaire wrote:

Belts are or holding up your pants! lol


yes good point bambi, i take it that is traditional weapon?

yes and no, just take a look at the average coppers belt . Hand weapons have usually been kept around the waist in most eras/cultures

Millionaire

most guards all serious ill equipted to defend themsleves in an attack. they only get 15 hours trainig over in templemore. we've had many on the KM training. plus army and ranger wing too

still as you go to draw weapon, your wide open for hay maker to temple.

Keep the hand up ish!

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

Inspired BY PMA in another thread.

Gee! I'm glad to be of inspiration to you

Millionaire wrote:

Ok goal of this thread is to discuss the hand on the hip of trad MA, and the Cons and More Cons..err sorry typo I meant Pros of putting the hands on the hip and punching from there.

Boy this thread will be fun..

It all fun

Millionaire wrote:

I see no value or use in putting or punching with your hand on the hip. It leaves you open for an almighty crack in the head. TMA says you get more power, I say not, you can get great power from hand up stance. Mike Tyson does not do hand on hip. and i'll also say I think 80% of TMA have no clue to why they put hand no hip and do it cause big asian sensi said to ( or 10 knuckle push ups if you don't!)

Hands up boxing style or in front of you like in KM. You are covered well, you got just as much power if not more. you are nearer target. it is more natural to protect your head.

Ok lads you got the soap box, lets see what we can come up with!

I don't see any reason in punching in this way either! But it is a way to over stress the body motion and get students to use there hips a bit more. As many people don't really use them at all!!

Other than that! In the Kata/Tuls/Kuens etc they still do this seemly useless motion? Why??

Well firstly you have to change your thinking about the movements of Kata. The blocks in kata are not really blocks in most cases, they are infact strikes, locks and some are throws.

Now if you can accept this, then we can move on to thinking about the straight punches and bringing the hand to the hip.

I think memphis was talking about a possible use?

When many MA'ists are about to punch in "Traditional" MA they first move the hand not punching out slightly then pull it back as they punch with the other hand. This motion can be used to grab the wrist, arm or jacket and then pulling the attacker into the strike.

I saw it mentioned "Why would you pull them in and down?" Well when you pull someone in and down you open up more points to strike on the head and neck area. If you are shorter than someone then this action is a help for you to get those areas that will give you the most dramatic reaction. Even if it is to hit the jaw or temple.

Another use for this action is to throw the attacker, by using the upset of ballance caused by the hand action. This can be found in movement that spin before striking or "blocking".

To just dismiss the movements of a Kata based on a line of misinformed and limited instruction. Is doing the Martial Arts an injustice. There has to be vaild reasons for these motions as the creators of the katas (the original katas) must have had a vaild reason. You must also remember that the forms have been changed and some movements softened to be classed as safe for school and college students to study without affecting the academic learning.

Yes this is a bit of history. But we also must keep with the changing times and update our Martial Arts Knowledge not only of the present and future, but of the past also.

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

most guards all serious ill equipted to defend themsleves in an attack. they only get 15 hours trainig over in templemore. we've had many on the KM training. plus army and ranger wing too

still as you go to draw weapon, your wide open for hay maker to temple.

Keep the hand up ish!

From working years in the "hospiality" industry, I've seen loads of cops get the sh*te kicked out of them. I've only ever seen one guy that impressed me and he just walked in to save two other ones, and had the two boys fighting with the cops cuffed in seconds!!!

I did see some great use of the battons at the Ireland-England soccer riot at Landsdowne in 1995

The Gardai should have combative training facilities in all major stations around the country. The crappy bit they do when in templemore is pants. Although I did hear that they are looking at the Hong Kong police method of combat Tai Jitsu which they use to hold and restrain?? So there might be hope for them yet.

Millionaire

I always suspected that katas got water down over the years, and the real mean and moves and strikes got lost. and then people are blasting through their heinans or Pinana and have no a clue what their down nor the teachers either.
So thats a point I read beore a ew years back where Dillman, was really htalking about lost meandings of kata.

I personally suspect, it you had a time machine and could go back a few 100 years to china or okinawa, you might find that "karate" would be alot different and more street savvy with lots of ripping and vital point strikes than there is now...why..because people were using it to fight for their lives.

Cake Fiend

dlofnep wrote:

If they are not used when they fight, then they are redundant, no? And if so, why would you want someone to start with basics that will give you a bad foundation.

Well, beginners will have to have things like body/hip rotation over-emphasized so they understand what they're supposed to be learning about. Then, when they get the hang of things, they'll do more stuff from 'fighting' stance as opposed to stylized hand-to-hip business.

As for kata, previous posts have mentioned the ideas that a hikite is never just a hikite, a block is never just a block, etc. IMO kata is a system of encryption and compression designed to pass on knowledge in a time where not everyone could read and write (and that's another topic altogether )

Millionaire wrote:

I personally suspect, it you had a time machine and could go back a few 100 years to china or okinawa, you might find that "karate" would be alot different and more street savvy with lots of ripping and vital point strikes than there is now...why..because people were using it to fight for their lives.

I'd say so, and if you read much about modern kata application, most of the analysists tend to go back to serious gouging, pinching, jujutsu-type stuff that was probably neutered from karate around when it was being exported to Japan. Also, if you look at more 'traditional' forms of karate (Okinawan styles) which use older kata forms than modern karate styles, you'll see alot more of this (and fewer silly head-height side snap kicks, etc). People think of karate as punching and kicking, whereas originally it was most likely a full-featured fighting system.

Dyr

Millionaire wrote:

Belts are or holding up your pants! lol


yes good point bambi, i take it that is traditional weapon?

Its probably as relevant now as back in the day, just take a look at yer average coppers belt

Wendified

Hmmm. Well in freestyle MA, both hands are up at all times. 'The convicts martial art of choice' Makes sense. Put it this way, there is more quick power potential when you have your arms in an upright bent position. You are in a position that will allow the triceps (take up 2/3 of the muscle of the arm) to straighten when punching, whereas with a more straightened arm, the bicep (1/3) has to be activated first in order to get the tricep into a power position. Does that make sense? Damnit I'm not reading it again.

Maipenlai

Can we discuss the difference between Muay Tha and Thai Boxing?

Do you realise Thai Boxing is considered a degroatury name in Thailand?

มวยไทยรังสิต visit http://jai-yen-muay-thai.xaper.com

Millionaire

Maipenlai wrote:

Can we discuss the difference between Muay Tha and Thai Boxing?

NO! YOU CANT!!!! this is my thread ! LOL

:-)

Better start a new thread for that. and leave this one for Hand on the Hip Vs Hand Up debate. that way its debate stays on track.

But I am keen to hear the differences as I am just back for fairtex muay thai in bangkok

cool site you teaching up in laytown (cool web site u got). my cousin trains in thai in drogheda. cant rember name of club.

pma-ire

Wendified wrote:

Hmmm. Well in freestyle MA, both hands are up at all times. 'The convicts martial art of choice' Makes sense. Put it this way, there is more quick power potential when you have your arms in an upright bent position. You are in a position that will allow the triceps (take up 2/3 of the muscle of the arm) to straighten when punching, whereas with a more straightened arm, the bicep (1/3) has to be activated first in order to get the tricep into a power position. Does that make sense? Damnit I'm not reading it again.

Hang on! Who said that the hand is on the hip while in a guarding position?

But it seems to be the notion of a few post on here

There are guarding hand positions with the hands up in Karate/TKD. I totally agree that if your punching and only using one hand in the technique your gonna get clocked. This is why he have to look at other options for this motion.

Clive

Dirty boxing guys.

Damo W

The assumption that is being made is that the hand on the hip is a static position and related directly to 'punching', it is far from static and I would even suggest that in the context of a trad. stepping punch it has nothing to do with closed fist impacting.

D