Over paid - Company want it back!!!

JP Mulvano

Hi this may have been posted before but I did a search and came back with nothing, but looking for help

Apparently my company have been over paying for the last 12 months and have just discovered their error. I told them about it about 6 months ago and nothign happened. Now they want to take a lump sum of over €1000 euro off me in one go. I read somewhere that you could choose to pay this back in installments. There's simply no way I could afford to pay it all back at once.

Does anyone know of any hard evidence ie government legislation protecting me or have had simialir expiriences?

I'm really thinking of saying tough it's your fault and I tried to warn you.

seamus

JP Mulvano wrote:

Hi this may have been posted before but I did a search and came back with nothing, but looking for help

Apparently my company have been over paying for the last 12 months and have just discovered their error. I told them about it about 6 months ago and nothign happened. Now they want to take a lump sum of over €1000 euro off me in one go. I read somewhere that you could choose to pay this back in installments. There's simply no way I could afford to pay it all back at once.

Does anyone know of any hard evidence ie government legislation protecting me or have had simialir expiriences?

I'm really thinking of saying tough it's your fault and I tried to warn you.

Yes you certainly can pay it back in installments.
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/pay_and_employment/pay_slip.html

Essentially that says that the deductions must be fair if it's *your fault* so it's reasonable to assume that they must be super-fair if it's their ****-up.

You do have to pay the money back. Offer them something reasonable, that you can afford (€40/week for twenty weeks?), and tell them to take you to court if they don't agree. You have the upper hand here, particularly given that you warned them.

Eoghan-psych

Hmm, one wonders - if they have OVERpaid you by E1000, how is it that you can't afford to pay it back? Could it be because you have USED the money which you shouldn't have received in the first place?

Ms Beanbag

why shouldn't he have spent it considering they overpaid him for 12 months, and have known about the situation for 6 months, but have done nothing about it...

JP Mulvano

I made them aware on not one, not two but three different occasions that I was being overpaid, and yes have the emails to prove it.

Why I spent it? hmm well the over paid amout was only about 20 odd euro a week so it hardly made a massive difference in the end.

Thanks for the first post btw.

WhiteWashMan

Ms Beanbag wrote:

why shouldn't he have spent it considering they overpaid him for 12 months, and have known about the situation for 6 months, but have done nothing about it...

because its not his money, and more importantly, its the law...

yes, as pointed out, you can pay it back in installments.

Tom Dunne

I was in the same situation a while back. The company (a multi-national) was very decent about it, but made the point that it had to be paid back within one year. The reason for this is that under Revenue rules, it could be considered a loan if it was paid back over a longer period.

Bottom line is, you have to pay it back.

Turner

Tell them you have given it to charity

Lump

It's their **** up. Tell them it never happened

John

JP Mulvano

Thanks for the help guys. An update here.

After re-reading the mail I got (yes an email has been the only communication I've gotten about this , at 5:30 on a friday as well) it would seem I actually owe almost €5000. This is a ludcious situation.

also the supposed increased payment was always putting me in the higher tax bracket so not only do I now have to pay it back to them but I've also had to pay the increased tax on it.

Really considering just leaving and tellin them to go to hell.

Any further thoughts ideas on what I should do?

WhiteWashMan

i think you need to talk to the HR people and your manager and the accounts people to try and straighten up the problem.
accounts should also be able to help sort out the tax problem that has arisen. you could get a nice lump sum back from the tax office, that will offset a large portion of that owed.

regadless of whether you walk or not, you still owe the money, and they can chase you down. naturally, your last pay cheque will be withheld if you just leave, and any moneys owing etc will not be paid, but you may be lucky and they will not persue it.
but i wouldnt ask for a reference

oh, and make sure you have a new contract signed first before you up sticks. personally, i would see if i could resolve the issue at hand first before having to start over somewhere else, and the threat of a law suit.

Beruthiel

I work in the wages dept. of a large company

first off, you should get your tax back once you are back to your original wages
secondly
as it was their fuk up, you should come to an agreement with them regarding paying them back, they can deduct x amount from your wage packet each week - it should be an amt. that you are comfortable with, like €20 or so... they cannot take the lot back from you in one go, that is illegal as it leaves you nothing to live on.

Borzoi

JP Mulvano wrote:

I made them aware on not one, not two but three different occasions that I was being overpaid, and yes have the emails to prove it.

Why I spent it? hmm well the over paid amout was only about 20 odd euro a week so it hardly made a massive difference in the end.
.

Ironicly, the fact the you told them, makes you more responsible, after all you KNEW they were overpaying you.

But as others have said they can't take it back in one lump - installments is the only way forward.

But at €20 a week, and you owe them €5000, has it been going on 5 years? Or am I just confused with a combo of pre-tax and post tax figures

seamus

There is a big difference between and extra €5000 and an extra €1000, and you could be sure I'd notice an extra €400 going into my salary each month. Or has it been going on much longer?

Any reason why you spent it? If it was me, I would have invested it until they asked for it back.

As Borzoi says, this actually does change everything. €20 extra in your pay each week is minimal, it's easy to spend, and not a big deal that you don't have it, even though you notified them. But this is €5000 that you knew wasn't yours and you spent it anyway. If it came up in court, you'd be the loser.

Eoghan-psych

JP Mulvano wrote:

Any further thoughts ideas on what I should do?

Pay it back - it's their money.

Presumably you are able to calculate your own wages, which means that you knew from *day one* that they were overpaying you. E5000 suggests it was far more than "20 odd euro a week" unless they've been doing this for half a decade?

If they underpaid you by a euro you would have noticed.

almostagassi

tell them you do not have the money and to f**k off, let them take u to court. and that the revenue commisioners have a big chunk of their money.

almostagassi

i dont suppose the turkish company gamma overpaid you.

dont listen to all these corporate loving slaves. u probably deserved the extra pay. companies are always ripping people off so dont feel guilty. and check out what profits the company made last year.

its not a criminal offence under the criminal law theft and fraud act 2001, so let them take a private civil action out on you. they prob wont bother.

and if they fire you or take deductions from your wages, that would be constructive dismissal under the unfair dismisals act 1977-1997.

Eoghan-psych

almostagassi wrote:

i dont suppose the turkish company gamma overpaid you.

dont listen to all these corporate loving slaves. u probably deserved the extra pay. companies are always ripping people off so dont feel guilty. and check out what profits the company made last year.

its not a criminal offence under the criminal law theft and fraud act 2001, so let them take a private civil action out on you. they prob wont bother.

and if they fire you or take deductions from your wages, that would be constructive dismissal under the unfair dismisals act 1977-1997.

If he refuses to pay it back, that's theft - he *knowingly* received, kept and *spent* money that did not belong to him and he did not earn. The acts above, you will find, allow the company to do quite a bit more than just fire him for that.

There are no corporate loving slaves here. Your attitude is repulsive - you are advocating the theft of money. Rather a lot of money.

seamus

almostagassi wrote:

i dont suppose the turkish company gamma overpaid you.

dont listen to all these corporate loving slaves. u probably deserved the extra pay. companies are always ripping people off so dont feel guilty. and check out what profits the company made last year.

its not a criminal offence under the criminal law theft and fraud act 2001, so let them take a private civil action out on you. they prob wont bother.

and if they fire you or take deductions from your wages, that would be constructive dismissal under the unfair dismisals act 1977-1997.

Yeah! Fight the corporations man! :rolleyes:

It is illegal to keep and spend the money. By the very same virtue that you're actually not allowed to spend €500 that you find in the street. If he didn't notice the extra money, he'd actually be in a better position.

cormie

seamus wrote:

By the very same virtue that you're actually not allowed to spend €500 that you find in the street.

Really? So what are you supposed to do with it?

WhiteWashMan

almostagassi wrote:

i dont suppose the turkish company gamma overpaid you.

dont listen to all these corporate loving slaves. u probably deserved the extra pay. companies are always ripping people off so dont feel guilty. and check out what profits the company made last year.

its not a criminal offence under the criminal law theft and fraud act 2001, so let them take a private civil action out on you. they prob wont bother.

and if they fire you or take deductions from your wages, that would be constructive dismissal under the unfair dismisals act 1977-1997.

how exactly is that constructive dismissal?

please, come back when you have a clue about, well, anything...

seamus

cormie wrote:

Really? So what are you supposed to do with it?

There was a thread some time ago about it. Afaik, you're supposed to give it into a Garda Station, and if it's not claimed in a year and a day, it's yours.

Details are sketchy, but it's something like that.

JP Mulvano

After some meetings here it all comes to light. I had notified them on the 3 occasions I received my payslip over the last 6 months.

First time I said "Hey how come I've been paid too much?" Response "Let me check it and get back to you" 2 weeks later "Yes we paid you at the wrong rate it will be deducated from your next pay cheque is that ok" at the time I still had the money so I said fine.

Next pay cheque same problem this time questioning what payscale I was on. Never came back to me with a straight answer, lot of hmmm and haaam-ing no definete answer.

3rd time I said ok this is ridiculous decide what payscale I'm on and give me a definete answer this time. Again too-ing and froo-ing about my question and instead 3 weeks later I get an email telling me I owe them almost 5 grand and that it will be taken from next wages.

As I've said before I told them about it 3 times. Didn't have a problem the first time or the 2nd. But then when I've gone back and looked thru this again I've noticed other discrepancies

1. Pension contributions seem to be mising
2. 2 pay increases I've gotten seemed to have been mysteriously left of the calculations.
3. My holiday time for the year seems to have mysteriously vanished?


My problem has been with the companies handling of the whole thing. I've gone to them each time with the problem and been fobbed off and given quite frankly bull**** answers each time and then I get an email of all things to tell me I owe 5 grand not even a meeting.

I do feel like just simply leaving after alll this. Reference isnt an issue and I highly doubt they're gonna take legal proceedings after me. I've spent most of the day trying to work out how they calculated this supposed figure. They should be doing this not me. They've provided me with no details as to how its been calculated and are refusing to meet with me until friday.

I don't doubt I owe them money but i put the onus back on them to take it by alerting them thet didn't and now my issue lies with how it's been handled and them being absolute **** about the whole thing i.e. quote from a conversation today "Well I'm afraid you have no choice to pay it back in one go it was paid to you in error and that's that. Now I don't want to discuss this again." Hangs up. WANKER!!

pickarooney

Do you earn €5000 or more a month? The sums don't add up at all.
If it's really a question of five grand, get a lawyer, seriously.

seamus

Sounds to me like you're going to have to get down with a calculator and some spreadsheets.

If you work off salary, it's easier than you think. However, if you're working per-hour or off timesheets it can get messy.

You need to know what your total gross pay should have been for the past 12 months. This is easy; Total Pay before raise + Total Pay after raise.

You need to work out separately what your total PRSI deductions should have been before your pay rise, and afterwards.
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/starting_work/social_insurance_in_ireland.html?search=PRSI

Then you need to work out what your total income tax deductions should have been, again - before your pay raise, after your pay raise, and also before and after Jan 1st 2005, if that applies.

Take the Tax and PRSI away from what your gross total should have been. That's what you should have earned over the previous 12 months.

You need to cover your ass here. Have you got your original contract *and* the ones that were supplied to you with your pay rises? If you find yourself with a legal action, you'll have to fork out for a solicitor and an accountant, and you'll still end up having to pay the money back to some degree.

PM me if you need a hand. All info will of course be treated in confidence.

JP Mulvano

Thanks Guys, my head is completely melted with this. I've been trying to work out the figures all day cause quite frankly I don't trust what they're coming back with.

I honestly don't have a problem paying this money back. I realise I probably owe them something but I think they're figures are quite frankly way off the mark. And their attitude isn't helping espicially considering it was their fault.

C'est la vie I suppose

WhiteWashMan

then i think it will be a case of being very nice, not telling them they made a cock up, becuase they already know, and talking to the people in finance to make sure that everything is line itemed and clear for everyone, and not just one big lump sum

jhegarty

As them for a speadsheet with a full breakdown of with every cent was suppose to be paid , and another with everything you did get paid....

tell them you won't even talk about it until you get it... its there cock up , they need to do the running here , not you....

masterK

Are you in a union? If so I'd get on to them ASAP. Especially if there are pensions contributions missing and holidays unaccounted for.

It sounds like the accounts dept. in your company is in some mess, they must do their account on an abacus.

WhiteWashMan

masterK wrote:

hey must do their account on an abacus.

hey, if it was good enough for the greeks....

nesf

WhiteWashMan wrote:

hey, if it was good enough for the greeks....

Damn straight

a_ominous

I was in a similar situation about 10 years ago. I made the naive assumption that the accountant knew what he was doing :rolleyes: My PAYE had been underpaid by about 2 grand. I can't recall exactly how it came to light: probably after my tax return. But I was allowed to repay the tax over 2 years.

Regardless of whether you knew about being overpaid, you're still liable. You're situation is more complicated because of pay raises but if you have a union rep, get them involved. Otherwise try Dept. Of Trade and Employment or whatever it's called now. Possibly try MABS or Citizen's Advice Bureau. Your employer should not be allowed to feck you over for this and it shouldn't be a resigning matter. Well _you_ shouldn't be the one resigning, perhaps book-keeper / wages clerk.

almostagassi

Eoghan-psych wrote:

If he refuses to pay it back, that's theft - he *knowingly* received, kept and *spent* money that did not belong to him and he did not earn. The acts above, you will find, allow the company to do quite a bit more than just fire him for that.

u are not guilty of a crime for simply knowing something. the mens rea for this crime is an *intention* to deceive or carry out such a fraud. if he told the company 6 months ago, a judge would not see it as criminal.

i still contend that they should not be allowed fire him. a judge will take into account equity and determine where the hardship will lie.

go to court dude, fight the power

almostagassi

WhiteWashMan wrote:

how exactly is that constructive dismissal?

please, come back when you have a clue about, well, anything...

constuctive dismissal will occur if the company make him work while not paying him. i have made more contributions to this thread than anything u have to offer. and all u seem to offer is critism of those greater than you. ie me.

almostagassi

[strike]apply to the Rights Commisioner. this is an irish public service. this is an independant arbitrator that can seize the accounts of your employer, accept submissions by you and your employer and try to reach a deal.

if you are not happy with the decision, you can apply to the employment appeals tribunal and a final appeal to the courts.

my advise is to relax. if your employer offers a sollution that is fair, then maybe go with it. if the offer is not fair, reject it. they can not take money from your salary or fire you.[/strike]

Ignore the above. -nesf

BaZmO*

JP Mulvano wrote:

First time I said "Hey how come I've been paid too much?" Response "Let me check it and get back to you" 2 weeks later "Yes we paid you at the wrong rate it will be deducated from your next pay cheque is that ok" at the time I still had the money so I said fine.

Next pay cheque same problem this time questioning what payscale I was on. Never came back to me with a straight answer, lot of hmmm and haaam-ing no definete answer.

3rd time I said ok this is ridiculous decide what payscale I'm on and give me a definete answer this time. Again too-ing and froo-ing about my question and instead 3 weeks later I get an email telling me I owe them almost 5 grand and that it will be taken from next wages.

The fact that they didn't know what payscale you were supposed to be on yet kept paying you just sounds ridiculous.

I wouldn't worry too much about it tbh.

The facts of the matter are.

1. You do owe them the money.
2. They will have to show you evidence of where the mistakes occured.
3. Even though they are insisting that you have to give the money back in one go, if you haven't got it you can't give it. Therefore they would have to take legal actions against you to retrieve their money and if they did they would definitely have to do point 2.
4. Once point 2 is proved they cannot demand that you pay it back in one go. You would have to come to an agreement as to a way to pay it back.
5.They can't sack you.

At the end of the day it just sounds like they made an alighty F**k Up and they are just trying to bully you into giving in.

B.

nesf

almostagassi wrote:

constuctive dismissal will occur if the company make him work while not paying him. i have made more contributions to this thread than anything u have to offer. and all u seem to offer is critism of those greater than you. ie me.

You have not contributed anything but illinformed and misleading bull**** to this thread.

*draws a line*

Cross it, if you want. I will have no qualms with removing you from here. Play nice and make decent posts and we'll all get along just fine.

seamus

almostagassi wrote:

u are not guilty of a crime for simply knowing something. the mens rea for this crime is an *intention* to deceive or carry out such a fraud. if he told the company 6 months ago, a judge would not see it as criminal.

No, but he still has to stand in front of the judge and justify spending money that he knew wasn't his and ergo, legally was not permitted to spend. If someone parked their car in your driveway, you can still be done for theft if you take it out for a spin.

i still contend that they should not be allowed fire him. a judge will take into account equity and determine where the hardship will lie.

Of course they shouldn't be allowed to fire him, since ultimately they caused the whole mess, but he's not completely absolved of any liability.

He owes them money, they have a right to claim it back. That is the crux of the matter here.

nesf

seamus wrote:

No, but he still has to stand in front of the judge and justify spending money that he knew wasn't his and ergo, legally was not permitted to spend. If someone parked their car in your driveway, you can still be done for theft if you take it out for a spin.
Of course they shouldn't be allowed to fire him, since ultimately they caused the whole mess, but he's not completely absolved of any liability.

He was aware of the problem and that he was being overpaid. There is no judge in the country that would rule anyway but for him to pay it back imo. The fact that it was not intentional on his part, but that he was aware of it makes him liable to paying it back. He can't claim that "he thought it was his" because he complained (rightfully) to the company about it.

Personally, I think it's been blown out of proportion and that a calm chat with HR will result in some reasonable scheme where he pays it back over a year term.

In theory, it shouldn't matter to him, because he knew he was being overpaid and should have not spent the money since he knew it was paid to him in error. But the law doesn't expect that in this situation. It provides a year's grace for the employee to pay it back in.

He owes them money, they have a right to claim it back. That is the crux of the matter here.

Yup. The fact that it was the company's error and not deliberate tampering by him seperates it from being something that could mark his record badly. In fact, this will probably never be mentioned again, or at least make him more alert with regard to pay packets and the amounts in them.

Anyone arguing that he doesn't have to pay them back the money, is talking nonsense. Seriously, the law is very clear in this one. There's a year's grace for the employee to repay it in, that's more than fair imo. A person should be responsible enough to understand be able to watch these things themselves. There is no excuse for refusing to pay it back. The company can take you to court and they'll win and it won't look good for your career prospects.

WhiteWashMan

almostagassi wrote:

constuctive dismissal will occur if the company make him work while not paying him. i have made more contributions to this thread than anything u have to offer. and all u seem to offer is critism of those greater than you. ie me.

youve made one contribution, and its been wrong.

im glad you are greater than me. your mum must be happy. by the way, what subject to you have in your junior cert today?

BaZmO*

nesf wrote:

There is no excuse for refusing to pay it back. The company can take you to court and they'll win and it won't look good for your career prospects.

I don't think the OP is refusing to pay the money back. He just has a problem with the fact that they don't seem to be able to show him where he has been overpaid. And also the fact that he is missing pension payments etc. Surely they have records that they can show him? They would definitely have to produce them if they took him to court over the matter.

B.

nesf

BaZmO* wrote:

I don't think the OP is refusing to pay the money back. He just has a problem with the fact that they don't seem to be able to show him where he has been overpaid. And also the fact that he is missing pension payments etc. Surely they have records that they can show him? They would definitely have to produce them if they took him to court over the matter.

B.

I was referring to the people advising him to refuse to pay it back to the company and not the OP directly.

It is however a mess and I don't think that either party would want to take it to court tbh. I'd say that a quick chat with the company people will sort it out sharpish. Or at least it should. If they try to force him into making a lump repayment, well then it's a totally different ballgame now isn't it...

Johnny Storm

BaZmO* wrote:

I don't think the OP is refusing to pay the money back. He just has a problem with the fact that they don't seem to be able to show him where he has been overpaid. And also the fact that he is missing pension payments etc. Surely they have records that they can show him? They would definitely have to produce them if they took him to court over the matter.

B.

Very sensible, BaZmO.
I personally, if I was in the Original Poster's position, would not pay back cent one (or agreed to or sign anything) until the company had 100% satisfied me with exact details of payments due, PRSI, holiday pay, pension and all the other details. IMHO, thats the least you could expect.

Being a bit of a bollox I would also insist on an explanation of how the mistake happened, an assurance it would not happen again and an apology. Then, for the icing on the cake, you should be able to publicly flog the guilty accounts clerk in the canteen to within an inch of his/her life.... oh yeah! ... after all, justice must be seen to be done.

RainyDay

Karl Grabe's tax calculator might help you to work out the correct figures. Note that they could be in big legal trouble if they haven't been remitting your pension contributions correctly to your pension fund (which is a seperate legal entity to your employer). Section 58a of Pensions Act puts a legal obligation on the employer to remit the pension deductions within a fairly short timescale (a few weeks iirc).

You will definitely have to pay it back, but you should suggest that you correct the error over the same time period in which the error occured, or at worst, over the time period since you first notified them of the error (6 months). Don't be surprised that the accountant is trying to get this closed off quickly. He's covering his own ass. You may well need to escalate to his boss and/or involve your own manager or union to get a satisfactory solution.

JP Mulvano

Johnny Storm wrote:

Very sensible, BaZmO.
I personally, if I was in the Original Poster's position, would not pay back cent one (or agreed to or sign anything) until the company had 100% satisfied me with exact details of payments due, PRSI, holiday pay, pension and all the other details. IMHO, thats the least you could expect.

Being a bit of a bollox I would also insist on an explanation of how the mistake happened, an assurance it would not happen again and an apology. Then, for the icing on the cake, you should be able to publicly flog the guilty accounts clerk in the canteen to within an inch of his/her life.... oh yeah! ... after all, justice must be seen to be done.

Which is exactly what I'm doing (apart from the flogging part, I may get in trouble for that however much fun it is). I won't pay back anything until they can confirm my payscale for the times in question, can confirm my pensions contributions and at least an apology for their complete lack of help on the matter and quite frankly ****ty attitude since this while mess began. I have little or no faith in my accounts department to sort this matter out and get my salary correct. I have asked for a detailed list similair to what I did out myself becuase by my reckoning I owe less than 1000, big difference here.

I've made it quite clear that I'm happy to pay the money back as long as I can see a detailed breakdown of the monies owed and also that I don't have to pay it back at once.

Accounts and HR are still being as unprofessional as ever on the matter but what can I expect.

WhiteWashMan

JP Mulvano wrote:

Which is exactly what I'm doing (apart from the flogging part, I may get in trouble for that however much fun it is). I won't pay back anything until they can confirm my payscale for the times in question, can confirm my pensions contributions and at least an apology for their complete lack of help on the matter and quite frankly ****ty attitude since this while mess began. I have little or no faith in my accounts department to sort this matter out and get my salary correct. I have asked for a detailed list similair to what I did out myself becuase by my reckoning I owe less than 1000, big difference here.

I've made it quite clear that I'm happy to pay the money back as long as I can see a detailed breakdown of the monies owed and also that I don't have to pay it back at once.

Accounts and HR are still being as unprofessional as ever on the matter but what can I expect.

i think we are all agreed that this is tha way to go.

i suspect your accounts department are not overly helpful becuase someone in there is going to get into trouble!

just remember to get everything in writing, make duplicates of everything, and make sure that a plan is in place, that you are happy with, that it is in writing, before you pay back anything.
in fact, write that down and tell them that you are happy to work out the repayments, but this is what you need first.

if all hell breaks lose and it all goes arse over elbow, you can still show you were happy to pay back and were trying to sort out the ground rules.

come companies will try and make it look like your fault and that you were unhelpful etc if it comes down to it.