Timber Frame company comparison

Bill2

Hi, i am building a 2700 sq ft house shortly and have been getting quotes from Timber frame companies for the supply and erect, they are all coming in around €60k give or take a few thousand, so no real winner there, what i'm looking for is feedback from folks that have used these companies in the past, (i've gotton quotes from all the main ones..) any good and/or bad experiences, any unusual things occur, or disputes over extras etc.. I'm building in the midlands..
thanks in advance

kadman

What is the complete spec for the house you have been quoted. Is it standard spec, or are there more specific additions to the standard.

kadman

Bill2

Hi Kadman,

It's a standard spec, no specials at all, dormer bungalow 2770 sq ft. they all claim the usual, years of experiece, loads of satisfied customers, etc etc.. i'd just like to get some feedback from anyone out there of thier Timber Frame house building experience, good or bad..

kadman

Is that supply and erect to roof battens and felt.

Does that quote include fit of all first and second fix timber components, doors, skirtings, architraves, stairs ect.

Or is it erect frame only, roof trusses, and felt and battens.

Are you familiar with building construction methods, or a complete novice.

Is it a fairly sandard type of build, or is there something special in the design.

kadman

kadman

Hi,

Is the spec similar to this ,


kadman


Hello Tim,

Below is a quick quote of the house you were interested in:

House Name: Burton
House Reference: DS005
Floor Area Metric: 219.38m2
Floor Area Imperial: 2438ft2
Supply Only Cost: Euro 35408
Shell Erection Cost: Euro 7082
Total Supply and Erect Cost: Euro 42490
(all prices are exclusive of VAT. VAT will be charged at 21% for supply only and at 13.5% for supply and erect.)

Supplied (and fitted where required) by Century Homes

External wall panels (140mm wide) with factory fitted breather paper.
Internal wall panels (89mm wide).
Factory prefabricated first (and second where applicable) floor panels to
1+1/2, 2 & 3 storey houses, factory fitted with plywood.
Prefabricated roof trusses (attic type to dormer houses).

Supply only by xxxxxxxxxxx (fitted by client / builder)

Prehung regency 6 panel doors in a softwood frame.
Staircase (if applicable) comprising teak strings, whitewood treads, M.D.F
risers with teak turned balustrading and newels.
Ex. 150 x 25mm softwood skirting.
Ex. 75 x 25mm softwood architrave.
Linen cupboard shelving.
Plasterboard to all timber frame walls and ceilings.
500 gauge vapour barrier.
Fibreglass insulation to external T.F walls internal bathroom walls and
roofspace in accordance with current building regulations.
Roofing felt and tiling battens.
Storage tank supports.
Access hatch to roofspace.

Bill2

Yep Kadman, very similar to this, a couple of variations, some will fit the felt and battons, some supply insulation, some charge extra for it, some supply internal doors, some charge extra etc.. When added up the quotes with extras like internal doors, insulation, stairs etc come out at around €60k. I'm prepared to pay a little extra if i can be assured of the quality of the build and the service i recieve, that's why i want to ge some feedback on the build experience..

Thanks..

kadman

On first impresions, I thought that 60k was a bit expensive. If you are getting quotes that maintain doors, stairs, insulation, are not part of a standard kit, and are extras. I would be asking questions straight away.

As timberframe is a relatively new concept in volume building in Ireland, it is going to be very hard to get house owners opinions, on what is a good or bad build. Their opinions may only be based on lack of knowledge in that area.

Indeed many so called timberframe builders, fail to fully understand the basic correct methods of timberframe construction. There are many timberframe start up outfits, in back sheds ect, that have no understanding of proper construction , in relation to single and double header binders on loadbearing panels. Mix these two in a building, are a recipy for shrinkage cracks ect.

If you have decided on a timberframe supplier, the best course of action is to see one of their kits being erected. If you don't have the necessary background construction experience, then employ a good professional to accompany you. Visit the tf suppliers premises, and if possible see the construction process of some panels .

Do you intend to purchase a company designed house kit, or are you offering your own plans for design. The larger companies that are used to mass production of same house types, may be reluctant to do a one off design, and may price it accordingly. The smaller companies are more flexible in their approach, and as such may be cheaper.

Are you going to be able to do some work on it yourself, or is it all contractor build.

kadman

Bill2

Thanks for your input Kadman, in answer to some of your questions.. I think i might have mislead you with some of my quotes. The total to supply and erect my house frame with all extras included.. (extras in some cases were, insulation, in other cases it was stairs etc..) came to €60k approx.
My plans are for a one off house designed by us.. (mainly her good self..) I don't have experience of constructing timber frame structures but i have self built before and will be taking on a fair bit of the non skilled labouring for this house.
Kadman, i get the impression you have some experience in this field, i'd appreciate your advise regarding what to specify for the timber frame companies, what to look out for, what not to do and any other tips etc..
Thanks..

kadman

Sorry, double posted,

kadman

kadman

Hi Bill2,

I regard insulation and stairs as part and parcel of a standard dormer tf kit.
Any company that tells you stairs are extra in a dormer, are selling you an incomplete kit, and expecting you to pay to complete it.

Thats like selling you a car, and telling you the steering wheel is an optional extra. A standard tf kit does not have extras. It has all the components listed previously to complete the shell. Wall panels, floor panels, trusses, dormer panels, architraves, skirtings, stairs, insulation, plasterboard, steel where required, should all be considered as part of your kit. None should be extras.

I do have experience in timberframe from manufacture to design, through to technical manager for a tf company.

My advise to you would be to familiarise yourself with the timberframe construction process, by purchasing the Housebuilding Manual ( big blue book ) available in Easons, if you intend to do some of the less skilled work involved, it would be helpful to you.

Although this book is regarded as the standard details for tf building, and quite often tf companies quote it, it does not mean that they actually follow it rigorously. Unfortunately it may be up to you to play devils advocate, with the tf checklist in the book, and constantly demand that these areas are properly covered.

As stated before, you need to visit your prospective choice of supplier, and see how they erect similar types of house. It would be beneficial for you if you could get some professional to accompany you. What you need to do regarding the spec list is to submit your drawings for a quote based on standard kit spec.

First up you need to notify the tf company of every single design requirement related to the house. The tf designer needs all the info that you have available, related to your house. A tf designer may design a roof to your house, deliver to site, only to find that you have decided to clad the external wal of your house with an additional 250 natural stone, the roof trusses are now unsuitable. This has happened. So give as much info as you can at the outset.


When you are notified of the standard spec for your house, you need to examine it. Then replace any of the standard spec items with your requirements. Lets say standard stairs is mdf and pine, and you want teak, relist any of these areas, and get an updated quote.

Your studwork centres will be based on the engineering report, that will either instruct on 400 or 600 centres. This basically says that timber centred at 600 mm will support the structure. But 600 centres will give some slabs only one single support in the middle of the slab. More flexible than 400 . 400 mm centres will give a more stable surface for attaching pictues, cupboards ect.


So even though 600 would do, 400 would be a better choice, but this will have a cost implication. The same goes for stud sizes. You may get an engineering instruction that 100 is ok. But 150 mm gives you increased depth of insulation, and an opportunity for some soundproofing options.
Timberframe allows sound to travel quite easily between the panels, so you need to consider some form of soundproofing. Any of these queries will require further costs, but you need to be aware of them.

So read the book , and hopefully it will give you some direction as to the requirements you need for your build.

Whereabouts are you building.

kadman

gregos

Is that the Homebond book you 're talking about?

kadman

gregos wrote:

Is that the Homebond book you 're talking about?

Yes

kadman

Eve1

Hi,
Timber frame quotes are so confusing aren't they? We just got six back so far and they are all so different that I am finding it difficult to compare like to like. Granted I haven't had much time to do it. I am thinking of putting a spread sheet together to analyse the different quotes and if I do I will post it. The thing that really bothers me is that the companies that offer 2nd fixings don't provide you with images of their wood/ doors etc. Its our first time building and I feel at times I am making choices with a blind fold on. It really is a full time job to analyse everything in detail. I am thinking of narrowing down the choices and then investigating further. Let me know how you get on Bill2.
Eve

kadman

Hi Eve,

If you wanted to post the two quotes that are the furthest end of your cost spectrum, maybe we could identify why they are so different, and explain the cost implications of each difference.

Tf quotes vary in relation to a lot of different variables. Some quotes may offer a hardwood stairs, others may offer standard mdf and pine stairs. This single variation alone may have a cost difference of several thousands of euros.

A standard basic tf quote for a selected house type, is exactly that, a basic kit. This basic is the minimum amount of timber, to perform to the structural guidelines set out by the engineer. It comprises basic white or red deal skirting, architraves, pine and mdf stairs, pine ballustrades and hand rails.
Probably using standard 6 panel regency doors, either pine or the cheaper pressed post formed panel doors. Minimum insulation supplied, probably the cheaper end of the spectrum.

Your roof type , and house type,would also have a major impact on cost. A straight foreward bungalow roof, would be a minimum spec, using a standard roof truss arrangement. Significantly cheaper than a cut roof, and quicker to install. A dormer roof , with elevated dormers , as opposed to velux windows, would have a significant impact on cost. Should a tf company choose to use attic trusses, these are extremely expensive in relation to a normal bungalow truss. Attic trusses are designed to give a living space at attic level, and as such are engineered to support the roof, and still allow an open zone for living requirements.

This is only the tip of the iceberg in relation to the various tf elements that have a direct relation ship with cost. Should you decide to change any element of a standard tf kit, lets say skirtings from pine to teak, this is going to push up the cost significantly.

So maybe if you post your quotes and spec, and remove any indication of the company involved, we could home in on the areas that are different in the quotes.

kadman

CJhaughey

www.scanhome.ie provide an Excel sheet so that you can work out yourself what it will cost to build a timber house.
The spec is quite high though so they won't fall into the cheapest bracket.

kadman

CJhaughey wrote:

www.scanhome.ie provide an Excel sheet so that you can work out yourself what it will cost to build a timber house.
The spec is quite high though so they won't fall into the cheapest bracket.

If you look at page 11 , you can see the breakdown of the external wall section. This is not the typical timberframe construction, that people associate with the larger wellknown timberframe producers.

This type of construction differs , in that the external wall section, is cladded with timber sheeting, attached to vertical counter battens, to achieve a ventilated externally cladded appearence. There is little if any cavity between the outer sheeting , and the face of the timberframe studwork.

Timberframe , as people normally think of it, is a timber framed skeleton, surrounded by a brick or block external wall, providing an insulated cavity between the inner timber studwork, and the external block or brick work.

Each has its own pros and cons, but I just thought I'd point out some differences between the two, lest you get confused.

kadman

AidoX

Ahhh choices choices choices, who is the best, best value, reliable & horror stories!!

I am well past that stage on my build in North County Dublin, my kit cost 53K complete & erected. With all the doors, plaster board and insulation etc.

When it comes to Timber Frames the only company I'd recomment is www.itec.ie
This company will not leave you short of any materials, in fact my builder reckons I have about €1k in spare timbers even after I complete the garage, they supply enough 2x2 battons to cover two houses.

Down the road a different company whom I had dealings with and gave me the impression they only want ot sell you their stock kits unless your building 10 houses provided a chap a kit and one of the walls was completely wrong it had to come down... nightmare.

so add itec into the pot, talk to them

Bill2

Thanks AidoX,

That's exactly what i want to hear, recommendations good and bad, i've sent on a copy of my plans to ITEC and i'll see what they come back with, can i ask what made you decide on them in the first place, was it based on cost alone or was there some other reason..

Below i've included some of the prices i've recieved from various TF Companies, some difference in price, i won't name names but you can PM me for more details if you want them..

Company::::::A:::::::::::::B:::::::::::C::::::::::::d

Kit Price:::::::38705::::37328:::::38815:::::::52363
Erect::::::::::: 9615:::::8657:::::::6925:::::::11668
Insulation::::::2840::::::3146:::::::2685:::::::::556
Stairs:::::::::::::incl:::::::247:::::::1500::::::::::incl
Pine doors:::::1645:::::::763:::::::2380:::::::::969
Plasterboard:::2150::::::2023::::::2685::::::::::incl
Crane Hire:::::extra::::::extra::::::extra::::::::::incl

To Supply and
erect + Vat::€62,374:::€59,206:::€62986::::€74406

To Supply only
+Vat:::::::::€55,049::€52,643:::€58,770:::€65,205

So as you can see a difference of 15k between cheapest and dearest, so far. Any feedback on these prices or optional extras..

rooferPete

Hi Bill2,

I don't build t/f but I do know that if I was buying a kit I would have an experienced person check out the specifications.

15k does not just appear out of nowhere, the problem is you have no guarantee that the dearest is not the cheapest product dressed up.

As a person who does not sell on price I would probably be in the higher price range but the value would be obvious to the customer.

I see above where there are enough 2"x2" battons to do another house, all very well but was the timber pressure treated ?

Excess materials are standard with me but they are brought to the job for my convienience and removed when the work is completed, that way the customer is not paying for excess materials they don't need, personally I would view that practice as bad management or a mistake.

Sorry I can't be more positive, perhaps Kadman could set me straight as to the accepted excess in any kit.

.

Bill2

Have to agree with you Peter, i meant to say that i'm not just going for a company on price although it is a factor but i'll narrow it down to 2 and then get some professional advise, but at this stage word of mouth and personal experiences will hopefully point me toward the right companies..

I am probably going for supply only as i have relations in the carpentary trade who will put it up for me.. Just on that, when the kit arrives how do you know what goes where, is it marked out on each panel corresponding to a mark on a drawing...??

AidoX

Hi Bill,
Reason why I went with iTec was because my neighbour builds exclusive 9000+ square feet houses over in Abington in Malahide. He put me on to them and from the initial contact they have been on the ball with everything.

Their written quotation stands to them alone, it’s a breakdown of absolutely everything which will be included with the kit. Their charge was €7,000 to erect. However I got my neighbour to handle this as he is very experienced with iTec kits. The really special thing about iTec is they will supply in stage, by that I mean my doors, plasterboard and all internal materials are still with them, I call them when I need them delivered so there is less chance of them being damaged onsite etc.

Their design team worked with my architect and resolved issues via email and phone calls quickly. As I mentioned before the amount of material I have spare on my site is unreal, they deffo do not leave you short.

AidoX

Hi Bill,

Im sure its standard practice, my kit came with a folder full of instructions & drawings which identifed each panel (each panel is numbered) and where it went.

Although that might make someone want to try erect the kit themselves I'd leave it to someone who has experience in doing so

AidoX

rooferPete wrote:

Hi Bill2,


I see above where there are enough 2"x2" battons to do another house, all very well but was the timber pressure treated ?

.

Hi Pete,
Spoke to my contractor he said those timbers are treated, which is why he's always surprised with the amount of excess.

kadman

A lot of different queries going on there regarding tf kits, definitely an opening there for a full time tf consultant Rooferpete, he.he.

Right , first off. Hi Aidox,

I'm not too sure about your construction background, so you'll have to forgive me if I make presumptions at this early stage. It appears thet you have had a good experience with your tf build, with Itec. Well done.

You dont say in your post , but were your doors, plasterboard, insulation, architraves, skirtings ect, supplied only or fitted as well.You say your builder says there is 1k in spare timbers, and enough 2x2 to roof two houses. That may mean one or two things. They are extremely generous in their supply of timber for your build, they could have sent the correct amount and saved you 1000, or the correct amount was sent and never installed during erection. I have surveyed tf erected kits, that had some significant amounts of material that was not installed by the erectors for a variety of reasons.
It could be due to ignorance about where to locate them, it could be due to time constraints, and it could be due to a lot of tf companies using contractors and paying them a percentage of the tf price to erect. So they want to get in and out, as fast as possible. So the main structure may be dealt with, and the finishing details not. Your long length of materials, may not be meant to be installed in a single length, but may comprise several short lengths to be cut. So lots of materials left does not necessarily mean the erection is correct.

Modern tf companies use state of the art software, for design. These are parametric 3d solid modelling programmes. That draw a building in 3d, and prepare the full bill of quantities, for all the materials in the tf kit from the drawing. So when the design is completed, the tf panel drawings are produced, along with elevations, floor panels, as well as the material lists.
So a comprehensive list of materials for site is produced, and handed out for processing for delivery. The roof arrangement, may or may not be deal with by the tf company, but in any event a complete list of materials would also be produced for it. I am familiar with Itec, and if I am correct, I do believe that they use Miteks software programme for their tf design. Which ranks at the top of the programmes available, and definitely produces the correct material lists. Why the extras. They are not extras , you have paid for them

As I said earlier, I am not familiar with your constructin background. But if you have the necessary tf experience to tell a good build from a poor one, and you are now happy that you have the good quality one , well done.

Trust me , panel plans are produced wrong in a large amount of tf kits country wide. As they are relatively easy to cut on site, it may not be always apparent that some panels have been cut , due to incorrect design, or incorrect installation. This is down to design faults, as well as fabrication faults in the factory. Good tf designers, with a good attention to detail are a rare commodity. Hence the large amount of college grads, with little or no hands on experience, on extremely low salaries, designing tf kits. The main areas where problems occur, is in the stairwell area. I've seen so many kits that are outside of current building regs, in the stairwell area.

Although you had a good experience with your build, I think it would be wise to elaborate on your skill level in relation to tf construction, when you reccomend a tf company, as I said before if you have the necessary skillset to evaluate a good build from a bad one, your reccomendation is to be welcomed, and will carry some weight. If not you need to tell people , that it is based on limited experience. But thats just my personal view.

kadman

yop

Kadman

I think your last paragraph is a bit harsh to be honest, Aidox gave his positive experience of dealing with a company, he did not outline that he thought the trusses or wall panels were manufactured spot on our not, so to say that unless he is experienced that he cannot recommend a TF company.

We gather from your previous post that you have plenty of TF experience and we do acknowledge this and that you have, or are working with Century Homes means that you have the hands on experience.

The idea of this forum is for "lay" people to express their opinions/experiences with all aspects of DIY, I don't think that unless someone is experience in what they are commenting on, whether it be shower doors, slates or TF that they should not be allowed to make a post.

kadman

Hi Rooferpete,

The practice of sending out excessive amounts of material to sites for a tf kit, would in my opinion be extremely unusual.

In my experience, and having used state of the art cad design programmes, for timberframe, furniture, steel design. These programmes are extremely efficient at producing the exact cutlists, material lists ect. In accordance with what type of house the designer has drawn. There is no margin built into a design programme to hand out free materials.

If there were any surplus materials on site after erection, it would be collected and taken back to the workshop. Excess material on site would only happen if something was missed at the design and production stage, and had to be re-fabbed on site.If as a designer, reports came back to me about large amounts of surplus materials on site after a build, bells would be ringing.

I would imagine if ITEC were aware that this was a common occurrence ( being part of a main timber importer ) they would be asking questions. And rightfully so.

kadman

kadman

yop wrote:

Kadman

I think your last paragraph is a bit harsh to be honest, Aidox gave his positive experience of dealing with a company, he did not outline that he thought the trusses or wall panels were manufactured spot on our not, so to say that unless he is experienced that he cannot recommend a TF company.



Hi Yop,

My last paragraph was not meant to be harsh or cause any offense to Aidox, and if it came across that way I apologise.

The point I was trying to make was that Aidox had reccommended Itec. I was asking him to outline his background construction experience, so that people could make an informed decision as to if he had the necessary skills to evaluate the tf company in question.

All too often people with little or no experience reccommend so called professionals, and I think its only fair to know the experience of the person doing the reccommending.

I never said anybody should not be allowed to post here Yop. I think you are mistaken in that assumption.

Would it not be foolish to take a reccomendation for a tf company, if that person has no building experience at all.

Would you take a recco from me for a mechanic to work on your Merc, if I knew nothing about engines.

If I have offended any body, again I apologise, but I thought it was a fair question to ask.

Just to put the question straight Yop, I have never worked for, am working for, or intend to work for Century Homes. And yes I do have extensive tf experience, and yes if you had asked me , you wouldnt have jumped to conclusions either,

So this forum is only for lay people now then. I find that idea slightly offensive, as a pro I feel that I have given a lot of info here. But if you want me to leave Yop

Goodbye

yop

Leave, not at all, apologise if my post also came across as offensive, like sending a text message, it is impossible to comprehend the tone!

Your experience is highly appreciated here and adds value to the DIY forum.

I take your points also.

Cheers

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

Strange as this may read but I can understand both what Yop posted and what you posted, I know there was no offence meant by either of you and definitly none meant towards AidoX.

The big difference can very often be that the Ladies and Gents who are posting are hungry for knowledge and have the good sense to ask the questions that matter in the hope that they will be guided by fellow consumers.

You and I are on the other side of the fence so to speak, we are posting from experience most of the time and observation or what we have observed the remainder of the time.

While my t/f experience is very limited, good building practice is the one factor all forms of construction shares, I study different forms of building not only in Ireland but the UK and USA as well.

So the alarm bells ring when I see a post that refers to a large amount of materials left over because I know the market and I know that suppliers today are building there companies on cost effeciency.

That does not always mean bad construction but €1,000.00 in excess materials could be a deal breaker, (in english) the difference between getting an order and losing it to a competitor.

When I was in the waterproofing for Civil Engineering (bridges etc.) the difference of £0.05p in a square metre was all it took to lose a job, in the general market I can make more profit fixing the mistakes made by others even though our original price as €500.00 more than the other price.

The cost difference between bringing us in at the start could be as low as 10% or as high as 25% but all of that cost difference goes into the project and I regard myself as lucky to be able to choose the projects I will undertake.

I have a consultancy service that is used by Architects, Engineers, Insurance companies and property owners, personally if I was buying a t/f kit I would use a professional.

I noted your post in jest where you refer to an opening for a full time t/f consultant, I think you are right, I would go further and say the service is needed, someone to translate the packages into plain English.

Worth considering and while you are thinking keep posting, I'm learning from every post.

.

flocker

I would also recommend to get the TF company to give you the heat requirements for you house or employ an engineer to do this for you. In my experience the plumbing suppliers/ merchants do not have accurate means to calculate the heat calc's. TF house are very efficient and it is surprising how small the heat requirements are compared to a traditional build.

Just my 2 cent worth

Amigaman

Just as a By the By perhaps one reason that Itec can over supply on wood is that they are part of the James McMahon Timer merchant group . My Timber Frame in Lucan was supplied by them ,I believe I was one of the first just over 7 years ago , Didnt have a pleasent experience at all but guess that they would have changed and would be a lot more professional by now. :rolleyes:
As a seperate item is anybody aware of any Framing company that will do stickbuilt construction on site , in the same fashion as timber frame construction is done??

kadman

I would be extremely surprised if the McMahon group got where they are today, by giving away freebies.

A 2x2 12 feet long would be around 1/3 cubic foot. Red deal is a bout 15-20 euros a foot. Tanalised timber is more expensive, so at an approx price of 5+ euros per piece, McMahons would/should be furious at over supply.

Modern tf software is extremely accurate at material lists, so surplus materials should not occur.

Your bad experience was probably down to poor design. Ill fitting panels, cutting on site, missing panels, are all signs of poor design. Experienced designers are as rare as hens teeth. It might interest you to know, up to recently they were still looking for both junior and senior designers.

Stick building is an option, but you would need an experienced crew, and designer to achieve a good result. Are you looking at post and beam stickbuilding, or standard timberframe stick building on site.

kadman