I hate women, but don't want too

LegacyUser

Right I have a problem, theres this really really good looking girl who fancies me and I would like to get with her however during the past year ive been reading lots and analyzing women everywhere and Ive developed quiet a severe disrespect towards them (mainly because they constantly mislead).

Now I dont hate them like the thread title says but "I have little respect for women" wouldnt really make you understand what this thread is about it would look more like a "i beat up my girlfriend" thread. Anyway while I dont hate them, I definetly only like them in a physical/sexual way.

Can someone please proove my misconceptions(hopefully) about women false? But telling me your girlfriend is actually a very nice person will make me either think your either a schmuck whos getting the wool pulled over his eyes or else his girlfriend is in the minority.

P.S. this is more a case of not liking modern style women not women altogether.

Beruthiel

Mysognist wrote:

P.S. this is more a case of not liking modern style women not women altogether.

perhaps you could expand on exactly what you mean by the above comment?

are you one of those guys that think women should be in the kitchen baking you pie?*
or is it something else?
btw
you sound really bitter, what is the reason for that in the first place?


*cartman quote

Hobart

May I suggest you look beyond the sex of the person and more at the person. Why do you seem to think that it's only women who mislead? Also, if you think the answer to such a problem is here on a BB, you are sadly mistaken.

TBH your coming across as a troll.

Corksham

2 words for ya:
Grow up

None of us is perfect, far from it. Sure I've had my heart broken by women as Im sure most other guys have but genuine and sincere female company is a wonderful thing, of course men and women are complete opposites whic is all part of the fun!!
I think this biterness has nothing to do with women and is more a flaw in your character than needs adressing and a change in attitude might help alot here

Sleepy

I think I know what you're getting at here actually. The "modern" girls that think they should act like a cross between an R&B Diva, the characters from Sex & The City, Bridget Jones and Elton John. Thankfully, most women grow out of this when they reach their twenties. As for the one's that don't? Don't give them the oxegen of attention. Ignore them totally and hopefully, if enough people do the same, they might grow up.

koneko

Might I suggest some therapy? If you have unresolved issues with women because of your upbringing or past experiences, it's best to sort them out now.

If you can't seperate the type of women you'd like from the ones you wouldn't, and tar them all with the same brush, then you're making this so much harder on yourself. There are assholes guys out there and there are decent guys. I don't assume they're all the same just because I don't like the way some of them act.

simu

koneko wrote:

Might I suggest some therapy? If you have unresolved issues with women because of your upbringing or past experiences, it's best to sort them out now.

Yup, I'd suggest that too. I don't think anyone will be able to rid you of these feelings in a post or two on here.

Or how about imagining you were bisexual and seeing how that might make your relationships with men more complicated - a lot of the so-called strife between men and women is a by-product of difficulties inherent in sexual parnterships rather than some ridiculous "Mars-Venus" difference or whatever is being promoted in this week's popular psychology book imo.

Alter Ego

I think I understand where you're coming from.
I too have had difficulty liking women as people (they make very pretty objects).

This is going to be flamed to pieces but I believe that women seem to want different things out of a relationship. They appear to require a greater level of future security. On a base, caveman level, this would be "someone to bring home the food" but has now morphed into a desire for a finantially sucessful male. This appears to manifest itself in the early twenties (later if they are in college)

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that females cannot be as/more sucessful as males but simply that they have a desire for the security that a 'strong' male brings (should they fall ill / want children etc).

The problem is that some males see this examination of their wallet/ potential as distasteful materialism. This is especially true if the male knows himself that he does not have the personality/ looks to attract a female of a certain level of beauty, but then finds that she does fancy him.

The trick to avoiding this way of thinking is to get to know the woman. The inital attraction that a man has for a woman is all physical, if she is substantially more or less beautiful than he alarm bells go off in his head if she appears interested. Why does she like me?
Once you get to know her you will see that there are other things to like about her other than her rack.

What you have to realise is that relationships are really about base desires and that your desire for a beautiful friend and sex partner is no less capitalistic than her desire for security and companionship.

Quantum

Mysognist wrote:

P.S. this is more a case of not liking modern style women not women altogether.

You may consider this a terse and unsympathetic response - but you have a problem and you need to deal with it or I can tell you it will cause you to have a long and unhappy life.
Most men who find modern women unpleasant or intimidating feel like that because of a low self esteem in themselves and the only way to tackle this problem is by looking at yourself and how to correct this. You won't solve it by others 'persuading' you or by finding a 'right' kind of old-fashioned woman, unless you happen to come across a time-travel capsule on your travels.

Altheus

I think it was Snoop Dogg who said...

"Now this, this, is, one of them occasions,
Where the homey's not doing it right,
I mean he found him a hoe that he like,
But you can't make a hoe a housewife,
And when it all boils down you go find in the end,
A bitch is a bitch, but a dogg is a man's best friend,
So what you found a hoe that you like,
But you can't make a hoe a housewife."

If you cant get past your own problems with women, your constantly only going to come in contact with women who are attracted to that. There are plenty of women who are attracted to misogynistic men alright, but as Snoop put it, a bítch is a bítch.

What you need is to have a conversation with a woman, a mature one. You'll soon figure out whether or not it's your insecurity with your gender/sexuality, or a genuine distaste for hers.

If you can drop your agenda for a minute you'll end up meeting some of the most enlightening and beautiful ideas and opinions.

I would recommend probably a physcologist if it's absolutely untreatable by education. In reality there's probably some point or something in your life that centres around a woman, perhaps leaving you, perhaps an infidelity, either way, it's a far from healthy viewpoint, especially if you want play on that side of the fence.

damn her!

I've had times where I found myself making generalisations about women that weren't very positive at all. These generalisations usually involve the double standards women apply to "equality issues" - they want the benifits of it but none of the cons (i suppose it's natural to just want the good aspects of a ... deal).
Anyway, the point is, even though I think my above opinion is true to a certain extent, it doesn't benifit to over indulge in such ideas. As you've suggested yourself, it ends up warping your overall attitude to women. I find it helps to find good qualities that women have in general. They can be very compassionate and endearing.
Despite all their flaws, I think they should be respected and even worshipped

koneko

damn her! wrote:

These generalisations usually involve the double standards some women apply to "equality issues"

Aaahh, that's better

Altheus

I'm from a family of women, and frankly the idea of 'modern' woman is somewhat a mystery to me. It's some mutated mess of hedonism, feminism, nuturing mother, femme fatale, wonderbra wearing, but not afraid to breast feed in public etc etc..

I dismiss any illusion or ideas about a 'modern' woman, because 90% of the women I know, while wouldnt fit into the old-fashioned category, i.e. subservient to the male partner, would certainly not fit into the category of modern woman.

If you think the male idea of women is screwed up, it's the media to blame. All you have to do is watch an episode of Desparate Housewives, The O.C., Sex and the City or MTV. There's this cast of a love machines, running the gamut of the single mother with a virginal touch, the dirty hidden secret lady, the insecure but independant who all once 'won' over will fall under the man's juristiction again.

Then of course you have the man-eater, who's the most sexually explicit, and who's entire motivation in life is sexual gratification. Eva Langoria, Kim Catrall per example. These she-devils serve as a warning to men everywhere. Sexual women will eat you alive.

That is TV, not reality. The unfortunate thing is that TV sets the trend and agenda for imitation through fashion, music and nearly every social outlet...

damn her!

koneko wrote:

Aaahh, that's better

thanks for the detail koneko. Given that I'm talking about generalisations though, "some" women is implied

koneko

damn her! wrote:

thanks for the detail koneko. Given that I'm talking about generalisations though, "some" women is implied

I know, but some people around here aren't that level-headed and assume literally *all* women are like that. I guess generalisations just bother me.

damn her!

koneko wrote:

I know, but some people around here aren't that level-headed and assume literally *all* women are like that. I guess generalisations just bother me.

Well, there are no absolutes in this world ( even this statement isn't absolute)

CaptainPeacock

Beruthiel wrote:

perhaps you could expand on exactly what you mean by the above comment?

are you one of those guys that think women should be in the kitchen baking you pie?*
or is it something else?
btw
you sound really bitter, what is the reason for that in the first place?


*cartman quote

I think this Beruthiel's 'advice' is completely unhelpful. You should stop posting in Personal Issues. It's obviously doing more for you than it is for the tread-starters.

Beruthiel

CaptainPeacock wrote:

I think this Beruthiel's 'advice' is completely unhelpful. You should stop posting in Personal Issues. It's obviously doing more for you than it is for the tread-starters.

look again Captain, you'll find no 'advice'
all I posted were questions....

CaptainPeacock

Bitter, unhelpful questions.

tirl

Mysognist

How long have you felt like this, have you been in a relationship before, is this the way you habve always felt, or is it something new
How is your relationship with your mother

WhiteWashMan

Alter Ego wrote:

I think I understand where you're coming from.
I too have had difficulty liking women as people (they make very pretty objects).

This is going to be flamed to pieces but I believe that women seem to want different things out of a relationship. They appear to require a greater level of future security. On a base, caveman level, this would be "someone to bring home the food" but has now morphed into a desire for a finantially sucessful male. This appears to manifest itself in the early twenties (later if they are in college)

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that females cannot be as/more sucessful as males but simply that they have a desire for the security that a 'strong' male brings (should they fall ill / want children etc).

The problem is that some males see this examination of their wallet/ potential as distasteful materialism. This is especially true if the male knows himself that he does not have the personality/ looks to attract a female of a certain level of beauty, but then finds that she does fancy him.

The trick to avoiding this way of thinking is to get to know the woman. The inital attraction that a man has for a woman is all physical, if she is substantially more or less beautiful than he alarm bells go off in his head if she appears interested. Why does she like me?
Once you get to know her you will see that there are other things to like about her other than her rack.

What you have to realise is that relationships are really about base desires and that your desire for a beautiful friend and sex partner is no less capitalistic than her desire for security and companionship.

no, what you see is feel is threatened because you dont appear to be your own definition of what a woman wants.


its as rediculous to make such a broad stroke suggestion about a gender, in the same way as it is to do so about a race, or a culture.

people are all different. perhaps you just need to expose yourself to more of them.

CaptainPeacock

Whaaat? Women prefer men with money?

I thought we all knew this already.

Alter Ego

WhiteWashMan wrote:

no, what you see is feel is threatened because you dont appear to be your own definition of what a woman wants.


its as rediculous to make such a broad stroke suggestion about a gender, in the same way as it is to do so about a race, or a culture.

people are all different. perhaps you just need to expose yourself to more of them.

You delude yourself WWM. Broad strokes can be made about such matters as they can for any animal species. Especially with behavious being dictated to the majority by mass media.
Sure it may not be 100% accurate 100% of the time because it is as you say a generalisation, a mental frame which we build and modify to suit an instance. Remember I did suggest that he get to know her better as a method of combatting his cynicism.

rsynnott

Okay, I posted something a little unkind; now it's gone.

First, I'm a filthy homosexual, and as such have no first-hand knowledge of this. Keep that in mind.

A lot of people seem to have a very strong idea that the opposite gender are completely alien, and think in a completely different way. To a large extent, I suspect, people think this BECAUSE SOCIETY AND THE MEDIA TELL THEM TO. People are people; obviously everyone's different, but huge differences exist within the genders as well.

It sounds like you had a bad experience; almost certainly not normal; after all, people continue to go out with women! Give it a chance, and go at it with an open mind. What's the worst that can happen?

WhiteWashMan

Alter Ego wrote:

You delude yourself WWM. Broad strokes can be made about such matters as they can for any animal species. Especially with behavious being dictated to the majority by mass media.
Sure it may not be 100% accurate 100% of the time because it is as you say a generalisation, a mental frame which we build and modify to suit an instance. Remember I did suggest that he get to know her better as a method of combatting his cynicism.

yes i am deluded.
by the way, whos alter ego are you?

Altheus

rsynnott wrote:

Okay, I posted something a little unkind; now it's gone.

First, I'm a filthy homosexual, and as such have no first-hand knowledge of this. Keep that in mind.

A lot of people seem to have a very strong idea that the opposite gender are completely alien, and think in a completely different way. To a large extent, I suspect, people think this BECAUSE SOCIETY AND THE MEDIA TELL THEM TO. People are people; obviously everyone's different, but huge differences exist within the genders as well.

It sounds like you had a bad experience; almost certainly not normal; after all, people continue to go out with women! Give it a chance, and go at it with an open mind. What's the worst that can happen?

Yeah.... but no.

Females and males are raised differently, with gender in mind, into different somewhat integrate social systems. Female and male neurocircuitry is different too. We can be different but still equal. I think there is a consensus heterosexual male viewpoint that can be used to make generalisations in certain circumstances.

Society and the media tell us one thing, sure, but it's way more complex and subversive than Desperate Housewives gets.

rsynnott

Altheus wrote:

Yeah.... but no.

Females and males are raised differently, with gender in mind, into different somewhat integrate social systems. Female and male neurocircuitry is different too. We can be different but still equal. I think there is a consensus heterosexual male viewpoint that can be used to make generalisations in certain circumstances.Society and the media tell us one thing, sure, but it's way more complex and subversive than Desperate Housewives gets

Hmm, maybe it's just me then (I'm substantially weirder than most people, I'm told).

secret_squirrel

Altheus wrote:

Society and the media tell us one thing, sure, but it's way more complex and subversive than Desperate Housewives gets.

And thank god for that!

The fact is that if you hate/despise/distain any group (rather than an individual) due to a quirk of biology - or any other characteristic- you are missing the chance of meeting someone you find fascinating. One of the major joys of any decent relationship is exploring the quirks of your partner.

CaptainPeacock wrote:

Bitter, unhelpful questions.

/me waits for Beru to wield the banning stick [/offtopic]

Tar.Aldarion

CaptainPeacock wrote:

I think this Beruthiel's 'advice' is completely unhelpful. You should stop posting in Personal Issues. It's obviously doing more for you than it is for the tread-starters.

what are you talking bout.they are questions that need to be asked to see if his view is of the baking woman etc
andto get a clearer pic before you can give advice!

Tar.Aldarion

Mysognist wrote:

Right I have a problem, theres this really really good looking girl who fancies me and I would like to get with her however during the past year ive been reading lots and analyzing women everywhere and Ive developed quiet a severe disrespect towards them (mainly because they constantly mislead).

Now I dont hate them like the thread title says but "I have little respect for women" wouldnt really make you understand what this thread is about it would look more like a "i beat up my girlfriend" thread. Anyway while I dont hate them, I definetly only like them in a physical/sexual way.

Can someone please proove my misconceptions(hopefully) about women false? But telling me your girlfriend is actually a very nice person will make me either think your either a schmuck whos getting the wool pulled over his eyes or else his girlfriend is in the minority.

P.S. this is more a case of not liking modern style women not women altogether.

first off its a girls peronality that makes me want to be "with them" most of the time. i dont know why you do not respect em.just because they mislead you lol? how so? misleading people is not simply a fairer sex thing!
as for this girl,be fair to her if you do not return her sentiments.
i think you really should just become friends with a girl with which you have no attraction for and that can set you straight.
(unrelated to last sentence)do you have a sister?

LegacyUser

Beruthiel wrote:

perhaps you could expand on exactly what you mean by the above comment?

Yeah sorry about that, just working late hours this week so was really tired when I wrote that and forgot part of the post.

Beruthiel wrote:

are you one of those guys that think women should be in the kitchen baking you pie?*
or is it something else?
btw
you sound really bitter, what is the reason for that in the first place?


*cartman quote

No no Im not one of those guys, sorry my post was so vague that you construed it that way.

And I am bitter I suppose in a way, ive just seen alot first hand and from a bypassers perspective of the terrible way guys often get treated by women.

First off, I better say my age so you can get a better idea of whats going on. Im 21, working at the moment just during the summer.

My main gripe with women would be their basis of attraction versus mens attraction. Also note this doesnt govern all obviously.
Men are generally attracted to girls who they find physically attractive and their personality, these are both very personal characteristics that belong soley to that person.
Women are generally attracted to guys with high status, value in other peoples eyes and wealth, among other things also (which include looks, personality).

Now theres nothing inherently wrong with that, only in my eyes that massively devalues a womans attraction, on the basis that its not something I am, rather its something I create. Now you may argue that what I create is due to who I am, but that isnt allways so.

So my conclusion is that a womans attraction is fickle and of little value.


Another thing also relates to the attraction thing and that is money, now to argue that its shallow that a woman would prefare a guy who had a BMW allthough true bears no water because ask a guy, would you prefare to go out with Angelina Jolie if she had a BMW or without one? Obviously you would. Theres nothing wrong with wealth being an extra. Its it being a requirement that disgusts me in a sense, that a guy would have to have a car, a certain sallary to be considered.
I think and I may be wrong but I remeber WWM(may have been someone else) putting it as "A guy who can afford his own round" as part of a list of what women want in a guy. To me first off thats the red tinted glasses version of "No poor guys" and well depending on your requirements maybe "Just rich guys".
Sorry girls but you being attractive does not automatically qualify you for a certain standard of living, despite the world disagreeing with me...
http://halifaxherald.com/2005/01/22/photos/1004.jpg

My brains a bit fried at the moment so I cant think of much, ill post tomorow with more.

Regarding the girl anyhow, Im going to give it a go I know her and shes pretty cool so im going at it without my usual back of the head voice "Shes evil only wants to use you.". Having said that Im not giving her the benefit of the doubt as thats amazingly arrogant. Im de-brainwashing myself in effect.

Beruthiel

might I then suggest that you go for a different type of woman then? one who is independant and confident, one who doesn't require a man's money but is able to provide herself with all that she wishes on her own.
they do exist you know

nesf

*shrugs*

Are you bitter because you don't earn a lot of money or that you don't have a high standing in society? Why bother? The only women for whom these things are deal breakers are shallow. Why would you want to be with them in the first place?

Are you attracted to shallow women and then pissed off because they are shallow? I could see why that could make you bitter, but it's hardly their fault now is it?

Sure, I know very few women for whom money is not a factor. But most of the women I know want to support themselves, earn their own money and don't want to be living off the guy's income. Sure they don't want the guy leeching off them but they don't expect a guy to be sleeping on a bed of money either.

Most women have very realistic expectations when it comes to money. A few misguided one's might consider it an extremely important factor but personally I don't find this kind of woman attractive so I don't really care.

Your perspective is very skewed mate. Honestly would you be happy with a woman who had a rich guy complex if you didn't earn a lot of money (and there is no shame in this)?

Maybe it's where you're from or the kind's of bars you meet people in, but I really don't see what your whole issue is. If these kind of women piss you off, then why chase them?

There are plenty of women out there for whom (delete where appropiate) looks, intelligence/personality/sense of humour/body/attitude is the deciding factor for them. Why trouble yourself over women whose tastes piss you off?

It would be exactly the same if I started ranting about women who liked very thin guys. I ain't thin by any stretch of the imagination. But do you know why I don't get annoyed by this?

Because women have a right to have different tastes in men. Just because they don't like me, doesn't make them wrong. They are entitled to take certain factors and decide because of them. I know I do the exact same with them. So it would be hypocritical of me to have a problem with them doing it.

rsynnott

This ongoing money fixation is odd. Is money-lust really a big thing for many women? Enquiring Minds Want to Know.

CaptainPeacock

Beruthiel wrote:

might I then suggest that you go for a different type of woman then? one who is independant and confident, one who doesn't require a man's money but is able to provide herself with all that she wishes on her own.
they do exist you know

They don't.

Would a woman suddenly find no attraction in a wealthy man just beacuse she has money of her own?

Soap

independent woman is a oxymoron.

Jonny Arson

Money money money..... its NOT a rich man's world I can tell you. Of course there are so many females out there who only want a man because of the size of their wallet like one of my sisters. However there are so many women out there who look for men because of what they are and not of what they have. Concentrate on yourself and not your bank balance and I guarantee you will find women with some soul to them.

Victor

I know this sounds odd, but try treating them like human beings. Yes, women are different, they have different priorities, but enjoy the difference.

Experiment, like you would with foreign food.

CaptainPeacock

Victor wrote:

I know this sounds odd, but try treating them like human beings. Yes, women are different, they have different priorities, but enjoy the difference.

Experiment, like you would with foreign food.

I dunno, experimentation with either can leave you with a dose.

The Sweeper

Ah joy, this old chestnut, women are gold diggers and I am a man, and therefore apparently a gold mine, so I don't respect women trying to dig me.

...wow, I could get pun mileage out of that on so many levels.

Okay - here's a solution, next time you see someone who appears to be attractive, why don't you ask her what she earns? If it's within say, 3K of your salary in either direction, then date her. If it's not, then don't.

Your late teens and early twenties is a difficult time to resolve issues with money, relationships, and money and relationships. First, you're usually earning your own money from your first full-time job. It's natural for you not to want to have someone take the piss out of you at this stage, but at the same time you may find yourself being unwittingly generous because suddenly you feel like you're flush. It's hard to adjust the practice of you buying all the drinks and dinner on the third date when you shelled out for everything in the first two in an effort to be impressive.

If you set boundaries from the outset - e.g. buy your round, then she buys one, then one buy one, go halves in the restaurant, pay your way, but then she pays hers too, you might be a lot happier. If she won't go for paying her half, then look at what you were trying to get her to pay half of - was it some item/activity out of her price range? (If she earns similar money to you then it shouldn't be). If you think it was a reasonable request that she pay half, and she flat out won't, ditch her. Que sera sera.

At the restaurant, you can offset the unromantic issue of splitting your dinner date bill in two by surprising her with some small gift while you're finishing the coffees - and chances are you won't resent the money you spent on the gift, because it was a gift, and gift giving and receiving are usually happy things.

Try to balance your tendancy to hate women with an understanding of the fact that it is not a bad thing to want to be with someone successful, confident, attractive and independent. All of these features can be cultivated and enhanced if you have money.

For God's sake, can't write off half the human race with a sweeping generalisation just because you feel threatened by gold diggers. Stand up for youself. If you feel like you're being used, then stand up for yourself and tell whoever you think is using you to f*ck off. If you feel like someone is only interested in your money, ask them about it. (I'd laugh if they ended up announcing they have a trust fund and were just waiting till they were 21, and now you could get bent, but hey, that's me.)

Otherwise, if you still hate women, I'd say it's probably because you are concerned that you don't meet the media-promoted standards of a desirable, successful man, so that women probably wouldn't like you, because all the while you're craving that girl from the Nivea ad, you're looking at the bloke on the Sanex ad and thinking that you can't be bothered/arsed/motivated to try and live the body-obsessed lifestyle you'd need to live to look like him, and anyway how could anybody like you, they probably only like you for your money, yes that must be why that girl was talking to you last week, for your money, because you don't look like the guy in the Sanex ad, and she must be a gold digging bitch, and now you have no respect for her, damn her, damn all women, damn all women who want you to be something that you're not, oh, and perhaps you could go get some help for that?

nesf

Good post

All men are image obsessed morons and all women are gold digging bitches. It's simple really.

The women are spending all their time and money trying to look beautiful for the men, and thus have little spare money.

The men are spending all their time feeling annoyed that the women have expectations and standards that they could meet if they could be bothered doing something about it.

It's easy to see why there is such tension.

Calina

Jesus I'm glad I'm single.

nesf

Eh most of the issues arrise from people's misguided view of reinforcing their ego by the existence of a significant other.

Grow a backbone, a partner should compliment you as a person, not be some trophy to be displayed in public.

Tar.Aldarion

didnt know money was so important tbh.if it is to 'her' then dont want to know her.
although my friend is spending 1400 on a flight to see her boyfriend.being a college student means money is quite important to her.so i dont think most people are out for the money.

Calina

Speaking as a woman, I'd have to say I don't judge a man by his monetary worth. Monetary worth isn't a constant ("the value of your investment can go down as well as up"). Someone who tries to impress me with his monetary worth is on a hiding to nothing...if only because I will make the irrational judgement that at some stage, money is going to be more important to this guy than I am and that doesn't cut it for me.

CaptainPeacock

Calina wrote:

Speaking as a woman, I'd have to say I don't judge a man by his monetary worth.

You do, but perhaps not consciously. It's not fair to say you judge him solely by his wealth, but it's always an important aspect, whether you can admit it or not.

rsynnott

Why do you say that? Do you judge women on their wealth? I know I don't judge guys on their wealth, no that I'm in a position to do much judging.

chump

Of course there are women that are after successful men, it just happens that money is a measure of success.

But there are also women who are into wasters.

And woman who are into artists and musicians.

And woman who are into sodomy.

I know which ones I prefer

Victor

Do you (a) hate women, i.e. women r teh evil (b) you have difficulty accepting the stereotypical behaviors of women, i.e. omg an hour and a half to get ready to go out?

LegacyUser

Victor wrote:

Do you (a) hate women, i.e. women r teh evil (b) you have difficulty accepting the stereotypical behaviors of women, i.e. omg an hour and a half to gte ready to go out?

B

lili

if you hate women you should change of sex and see how it is from another perspective.