'Approved' Full Bore Pistol Ranges

macnas

How many authorised/approved/licensed full bore pistol ranges are there in the Republic?. Meaning authorised/approved/licensed by the local Superintendent, An Garda Siochana.

Sparks

Macnas, as far as I know, there is no official legal procedure for getting a range certified. You just show it to the super and he says yay or nay. I may be wrong on this, mind - I've just never seen any paperwork relating to this. So getting an exact number might be hard, because any existing club could technically go ahead and shoot fullbores in the ROI so long as they did so safely.

civdef

I've yet to find anything giving a super the ability to regulate which ranges licenced shooters can and can't use for various types of firearms (with the possible exception if the rage was so grossly unsuitable as to cause a danger to the public).

There is a legal power for the Super to set all sorts of conditions onto the use of club guns by non-licence holders, which seems to have confused some of them.

Ammoman

hi, I'm new to this site but as fas as my Super is concerned there are no approved Fullbore ranges in the Republic . That includes MRC , that was communicated to me only last week .

Sparks

as fas as my Super is concerned there are no approved Fullbore ranges in the Republic

News to the army, I'll bet

gouda

Sparks wrote:

News to the army, I'll bet

The Army don't need approval or planning permission.

Sparks

Not from the DoJ, no. But army ranges are approved... by the army and MoD, if I remember right.

Ammoman

Sparks wrote:

Macnas, as far as I know, there is no official legal procedure for getting a range certified. You just show it to the super and he says yay or nay. I may be wrong on this, mind - I've just never seen any paperwork relating to this.

I found out that the DOJ / Gardai are going to use the same standard as the PSNI more or less for range approval . Can anyone get a copy of their guidelines , that would make interesting reading.....

Sparks

Ammoman wrote:

I found out that the DOJ / Gardai are going to use the same standard as the PSNI more or less for range approval . Can anyone get a copy of their guidelines , that would make interesting reading.....

Dunno about the guidelines, still looking for those, but here's their Firearms Act:

Authorisation
49. - (1) The Chief Constable may, on payment of the appropriate fee, grant an authorisation for a firearms club if he is satisfied that it can operate without danger to public safety or to the peace.

(2) The Chief Constable may at any time by notice in writing -

(a) attach conditions to an authorisation;

(b) vary or revoke conditions attached under this Article.

(3) An authorisation shall, unless the Chief Constable revokes it, continue in force for a period of five years from the date on which it is granted.

(4) The Unlawful Drilling Act 1819 (c. 1) shall not have effect in relation to a firearms club if an authorisation is in force in relation to it.

(5) Any person who -

(a) operates, or participates in the activities of, a firearms club for which an authorisation is not in force; or

(b) contravenes any condition of an authorisation,

shall be guilty of an offence.

There's even a standard form...

Ammoman

typical , For a small fee anything is possible !!!

its interesting to see the form , they dont ask about the backstops , only about the ranges and no of targets.... Strange . i would have thought that the construction of the backstops would be more important ?


it is also interesting to see that it is an offence to use a non authorised range !!!

jaycee

it is also interesting to see that it is an offence to use a non authorised range !!!

Not quite what it says...

Any person who -operates, or participates in the activities of, a firearms club for which an authorisation is not in force; or contravenes any condition of an authorisation,-shall be guilty of an offence.

It dosen't mention "Ranges"

I would guess ..(Given the security issues there ) this was inserted to prevent
a bunch of lads assembling with firearms and claiming that they were a "club".

It's bacially saying that if you want to form a club ..do it in a proper and controlled manner ..and behave ..or else !

Ammoman

" Any person who -operates, or participates in the activities of, a firearms club for which an authorisation is not in force "

Participates in the activities of , that means shooting on the range or using the range :rolleyes:

Ammoman

It dosen't mention "Ranges"

i didnt mean the locations or names of ranges , I meant Distances !!

Sparks

Well, I didn't find the PSNI guidelines, but the Home Office ones from the UK probably had a feed into them. There's a leaflet they print called Firearms: Approval of Rifle and Pistol Clubs with the criteria clubs must meet to be certified. Can't find it on the web though.

Ammoman

Any idea who we / i could contact to get a copy ?

jaycee

a firearms club

Forming a club dosen't nessarily mean it has either land or buildings.
Many clubs don't , there are many car clubs on the internet whose members never meet in person , they don't have a premises or land ..yet it is a true club.

One definition of a club is..

"An association of persons united by a common interest usually meeting periodically for a shared activity" [Oxford dictionary]

True.. one of the most logical activitys of a shooting club would be shooting,
But it's not the only activity..outings, pub quiz's ..etc are all pretty common club activitys.

It dosen't follow that they have their own "range " ..Approved or otherwise..
they may shoot at another clubs "Approved range "

I'm not trying to be picky .. it's just that such assumptions as to meaning can and have caused problems.

The point I was trying to make is that in view of the security situation in that area .. it was probably an attempt to prevent what used to be known as "Unlawful assembly " by gun toting mobs (Who might try to claim they were just a club out for a walk with their guns) (Yeah right..!) while preserving the rights of genuine sportsmen.

Sparks

Just write to any UK police force with a stamped addressed envelope, I suspect ammoman.

JC, very true - we were trying to set up DIT's rifle club so that they could use the DURC range until a DIT range could be sorted. Unfortunately, the college fairly stepped on that idea

jaycee

Unfortunately, the college fairly stepped on that idea

Why..?

Sparks

jaycee wrote:

Why..?

The reason given was "insurance". I think myself the real reason was that the proposal wasn't fully understood and 400 years of red tape came into play in putting up resistance
Pity, really, since the earliest target shooting competition in Ireland that I can find a record of took place on the TCD campus (in the mid-1800s). You'd think they'd have a better appreciation of it, but it's a long hard slog for DURC in there.

Ammoman

As a matter of interest does the DURC range have approval ?

Sparks

Well, it was inspected by the new Super from Pearse St. only a few months ago and given the all clear, so I guess we're as close to approval as you can legally get in this country. The firearms are held on an authorisation as well, so there's that to add weight to it.

We can't shoot .22 standing there at all though, and there's no air pistols yet (the club's still thinking about safety issues and it'd have to wait until the legality is nailed down anyway, the club does not have the right to act autonomously in such matters, it needs the college's permission). Safety's a big deal in DURC, obviously, since we get between 100 and 300 completely new shooters coming in each year who have to be trained to shoot safely.

Ammoman

does it matter if the range isnt approved , i know that this issue is only causing aproblem sincr Jan or Feb of this year , and will it be retrospective , ie . clubs that are long established , will they have to get approval now also ? and more importantly will it effect the ability for club members to get a licence ???

Sparks

No idea Ammo, since up to now, there's not been any formalised legal procedure for getting a range authorised (so far as I know of anyway).

Ammoman

Now for the conspiracy theory ! Maybe this is a plan by the DOJ to reduce the number of new clubs that have been set up in the last year or so , in order to curb the growing interest in Shooting as a sport , and in turn to reduce the number of firearms :eek:

Rovi

jaycee wrote:

I would guess ..(Given the security issues there ) this was inserted to prevent a bunch of lads assembling with firearms and claiming that they were a "club".

So if this bunch of lads were to claim they were the Irish Rifle Association, they wouldn't get very far then?

Sparks

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to, to be honest ammoman. I think if they wanted pistols gone, they'd just ban them outright, citing gun crime as the reason. Seeing the support the ERU got over Lusk, I don't think the DoJ would be too worried about backlash from doing that!

Sparks

Rovi wrote:

So if this bunch of lads were to claim they were the Irish Rifle Association, they wouldn't get very far then?

Probably not, since the Irish Rifle Association (yup, there was such a thing) hasn't existed since the early 1900s....

Ammoman

Sparks wrote:

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to, to be honest ammoman. I think if they wanted pistols gone, they'd just ban them outright, citing gun crime as the reason. Seeing the support the ERU got over Lusk, I don't think the DoJ would be too worried about backlash from doing that!

I think that you would find that to ban the pistols outright they would have to amend the firearms act , that would take a considerable length of time , imposing restrictions through garda policy is easy by comparisson , it only takes a memo . that is assuming that the Gardai read the memos ???

Sparks

A TCO now would give them till the first few days of December to get the firearms act amended with the CJB. More than enough time. No, I don't think they'd be so indirect, I think you've just had the misfortune to run into one of the supers who hate people having guns in their district Ammo

Ammoman

Sparks wrote:

A TCO now would give them till the first few days of December to get the firearms act amended with the CJB. More than enough time. No, I don't think they'd be so indirect, I think you've just had the misfortune to run into one of the supers who hate people having guns in their district Ammo

I dont think that they can justify a TCO ever again , not after the can of worms the last one left open... :rolleyes:

Sparks

They certainly couldn't justify it to us Ammoman, and there probably wouldn't be too many shooters in the country who would think it benign; but the thing is that they don't have to justify it to us, they're legally entitled to do it, and if we decided to not comply, well, the ensuing debacle wouldn't bear thinking about

Ammoman

So that being the cast , shooters in this country have no rights if the Gardai decide so .?

Sparks

No, shooters in this country have no right, in the legal sense, to own firearms (at least the non-antique, working variety that need licences). Of course, in the legal sense, the Gardai don't get to decide to ban firearms either, that's the Minister's perogative alone. Gotta be careful with the language when you start talking about legalities

But put in layman's terms, if the Powers That Be decided to invest effort in getting rid of all legally-held firearms, I don't think we'd be able to stop them, even if we were perfectly organised and all of the same mind, and all single-issue voters (which we're not, on any count). However, doing so would require effort, and would have a cost associated with it, and so would require a reward on the far end. And to date, no such reward has been forthcoming as it was in the UK following Hungerford or Dunblane.

Think of it as being analogous to Ireland's defence against invasion - economics. No nation that could afford to raise an army and put it in the field to invade Ireland could be repelled by our defence forces, realistically speaking. We're just too small. But, there wouldn't be any reward for the invading force. No natural resources, no strategic positioning, nothing. The whole idea is seen as farce as a result. If there was some reward, like using Ireland as a base to attack the UK during WW2, then you might have some cause for concern - but there isn't, so we all sleep soundly in our beds. In effect, our best defence is in being friendly and inoffensive and loved by all - a hippy's dream made reality through hardcore right-wing economics. You have to love the irony And there's a lesson in there somewhere for shooting as well

Ammoman

What about the swiss way of thinking , every house has a gun and everyone is the swiss army... :rolleyes:

Sparks

Well, they've got more to protect - strategic placement and so on. But their biggest defence isn't so much their armed forces as it is their banking laws - a lot of powerful people would have a lot depending on Switzerland remaining unmolested and operating free and clear, so those people don't encourage the idea of invasion. Which is another model we could be using for our sport, if we could get a few TDs and Ministers shooting

Ammoman

yeh i better check that Bank A/C no now ...

civdef

<cough> Off-topic </cough>

macnas

Ahem..........

macnas wrote:

How many authorised/approved/licensed full bore pistol ranges are there in the Republic?. Meaning authorised/approved/licensed by the local Superintendent, An Garda Siochana.

Ammoman

Currently ! None :mad:

les45

Re the NI ranges, there is a spec available, on completition the MOD together with the local PSNI people inspect the range and the MOD issue the aproval cert which is then sent to the PSNI , I have a copy of the specification, from memory we got it from Bisley, fairly straightforward stuff, backstop is 8 mt tall with a sand berm in front and a deflection angle of 34 deg, range floor is gravel etc,

Ammoman

les45 wrote:

Re the NI ranges, there is a spec available, on completition the MOD together with the local PSNI people inspect the range and the MOD issue the aproval cert which is then sent to the PSNI , I have a copy of the specification, from memory we got it from Bisley, fairly straightforward stuff, backstop is 8 mt tall with a sand berm in front and a deflection angle of 34 deg, range floor is gravel etc,

Les ,

Can you post it here on the site , i was in touch with the PSNI today but havent heard anything yet...
:rolleyes:

macnas

Got the green light from the Superintendent for my pistol licence today, the 'authorised' range issue seems not to be an issue anymore. This was the first application to land on his desk and he made me sweat for a while but I am v. happy.

Dvs

macnas wrote:

Got the green light from the Superintendent for my pistol licence today, the 'authorised' range issue seems not to be an issue anymore. This was the first application to land on his desk and he made me sweat for a while but I am v. happy.

Hello Macnas,
Congrats on your green light,
Did the Superintendent say that the "authorised range issue"
was no longer an issue?

Dvs

Flattop 15

Think of it as being analogous to Ireland's defence against invasion - economics. No nation that could afford to raise an army and put it in the field to invade Ireland could be repelled by our defence forces, realistically speaking. We're just too small. But, there wouldn't be any reward for the invading force. No natural resources, no strategic positioning, nothing. The whole idea is seen as farce as a result. If there was some reward, like using Ireland as a base to attack the UK during WW2, then you might have some cause for concern - but there isn't, so we all sleep soundly in our beds. In effect, our best defence is in being friendly and inoffensive and loved by all - a hippy's dream made reality through hardcore right-wing economics. You have to love the irony And there's a lesson in there somewhere for shooting as well

[/QUOTE]

Errr,well being a bit OT here,This little Island DOES have very important strategic value.At least up to the end of the cold war.It also has the most important intercontinental control of the air traffic control,from Shannon and Prestwick ,Scotland,known as SHANWIK.Shut either of those two down and the busiest airoute across the Atlantic is screwd!!Up to the end of the cold war[and proably still]Ireland was considerd the "backdoor" into NATO,by Wasaw Pact.Fly your "backfire" bombers from the Kola peninsula out into the Atlanticturn and then head due East ,launch your nuke tipped cruise missiles from 300 miles out,hit the UK from a weak defence from the West.Not to mind the EIGHT nuke designated targets in the 32 counties by NATO and Wasaw Pact strategic planning.We also are important for the Iceland,Faroe island,Rockall airgap.
If Adolf had arrived,we would have had plenty of U Boat pens on the West coast.
Now,what this could be argued in shooting terms,the British [in the pre Hungerford days] Ran an exercise called Brave Defender.Its scenario was vital targets could be hit by Soviet "spetsnatz" units.As the army and police cant gaurd everything the idea was to use local gunowners in somthing like gureilla home gaurd units to defend more isolated vital infrastructure.[Hard to belive that they still had such trust then]It was poohpoohed by the Army,etc,yet when the units were "trained" by EX SAS,it was proven to be very sucessful.Yet it was quietly disposed of and ignored.
It could have been used here back in the 70s and 80s if the IRA had become a more virulent force,and we would have had politicans with balls to think and use it.But today????Well,maybe if Al Quieda did somthing here....? Trouble is we dont have national defence attitude,nor do we ever had a invasion like most of Europe over the last centuary,so a idea of a civillian defence force as a reason for firearms ownership is pretty a no hoper as well.

As for Switzerland,well, they have a totally different mindset,culture,infrastructure and attitude to their neutrality than we ever will have.EG any new house built must have a cellar capable of holding the occupants in a safe contition against fallout.When was the last time you saw a house with a cellar here?Also they are the only country that has taken civillian resistance and gureilla warfare into their national defence plans.Imagine that one here!
So I do have to agree with Sparks about being inoffensive and harmless as possible,BUT with a "do not f"£K with us please" attitude.

macnas

DVS, he didn't say it wasn't an issue anymore but it was the hub of his arguement for not issuing the licence. As Civdef posted earlier in this thread, there is no legislation covering the authorisation of ranges being used by licensed individuals using their own firearms. The authorisation(Firearm Act, 1964, Section 15) granted by the Superintendent allows the use of ranges by individuals using club firearms allowing them to 'use' and 'carry' them without a firearms certificate. This is issued having regard for public safety, etc, etc.
Hopefully it will be a little bit easier for the next person to apply for one in this district!!!