Railway Gauges

Victor

I'm not sure that we meed to comply with standard gauge (56% of the world's railways). It seems the it a huge absence of standardisation, in fact it seems to be more "Mix'n'Match". I imagine standaristion within a (national) system is more important. Boo to Luas.

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/voltage_map_europe.php#3

MarkoP11

Standardisation is the way to go, standardisation with what you already have, thats why the Irish Guage is backed in law

It doesn't really matter what gauge Luas was it was never going to be operationally linked to another system, after all we are never going to see a metro south of Stephens Green on the Harcourt St line

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote:

I'm not sure that we meed to comply with standard gauge (56% of the world's railways). It seems the it a huge absence of standardisation, in fact it seems to be more "Mix'n'Match". I imagine standaristion within a (national) system is more important. Boo to Luas.

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/voltage_map_europe.php#3

Victor,
From what I told it goes back to the period when we had high unemployment in the 1800's -1900's. If we had the same size gauge as the rest of europe, then we could buy trains from European operators and put them straight onto our railways.
BUT, if we had a different size, then we could create employment by forcing the railway companies to employ people to have to adjust the width of the boogies on the train. Yes this cost the country, but hell it still goes on today, and the unions of the workers are happy, so Bertie is hardly going to upset them.
If you ever listen to IE or any politician talk, they all say the LUAS should be the same gauge as IE, which it should, but have you ever heard them defend the decision to go with a different gauge to our European neighbours.
If memory serves me correct, russia only engaged in this "employment practice" in the 1800's.

Capt'n Midnight

Ireland was one of the first countries to go metric 1.6m since about 1834 - actually looking at the graph again - look like we are the only ones using metric main line rail !


Germany 1.435m and Russia 1.52m had different sizes since day so that trains couldn't cross the border.



Oz was a complete mess IIRC nearly all the southern states had thier own gauge. Used to have to change the boggies on the carraiges on a cross country train.
Australia
broad gauge: 2,193 km 1.600-m gauge (built by an Irishman )
standard gauge: 23,648 km 1.435-m gauge (Eu gauge if ya like)
narrow gauge: 15,456 km 1.067-m gauge
dual gauge: 291 km dual gauge (2002) - IIRC it's a three rail system based on broad and standard guage - probably at one end of the nulabor plain - nayone know ?

http://www.rpsi-online.org/rpsiir.htm - nice link
before partition up north we had about 12,000Km of rail on the Island - now down to just 2,300 km. If anyone can find a link to a 1922 railway map it's worth posting.

EDIT - since we are on a different gauge to GB, NI and us share some of them mad looking big yellow self propelled track maintainance thingies.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/misc_worldwide-railways.php

Estonia total: 968 km
broad gauge: 968 km 1.520-m/1.524-m gauge (132 km electrified)
note:: gauge being increased from 1.520-m to 1.524-m to reduce wear on wheels and rail as lines are modernized (2002)

4mm wider to reduce wear. I wonder who thought that one up. :rolleyes:

If rolling stock lasts 30 years, don't let the beancounters in IR know as they'd probably schedule a 1.5 mm move per decade as part of an ongoing cost saving exercise.

dowlingm

Toronto Transit has a gauge which is unique to them, not just Ontario or even the rest of Canada!

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

I'm not sure that we meed to comply with standard gauge (56% of the world's railways). ... Boo to Luas.

We don't. Luas doesn't need to be compatible with mainline rail systems. It's light rail.

MarkoP11 wrote:

after all we are never going to see a metro south of Stephens Green on the Harcourt St line

Erm, yes we are. The RPA wouldn't have said it if it wasn't the intention.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

From what I told it goes back to the period when we had high unemployment in the 1800's -1900's. If we had the same size gauge as the rest of europe, then we could buy trains from European operators and put them straight onto our railways.

This sounds like cynical nonsense. The reason is much more likely to be just because railways have existed in Ireland for so long (AFAIK the second country in the world) then there was no standard gauge at the time. So we just went with whatever. It was only later, after loads of lines had been built,that everyone else decided on what the standard would be.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Ireland was one of the first countries to go metric 1.6m since about 1834 - actually looking at the graph again - look like we are the only ones using metric main line rail !

1.6m gauge isn't metric - it's actually 1600.2 mm, or exactly 5'3". The metric system would have been almost unknown everywhere at the time. Gauges such as this and others clearly based on feet and inches (e.g. 914 mm) often turn up in odd places. The reason is that railways in other countries (e.g. Russia) were often built by British engineers who were drafted in.
What you should have said was that we are the only ones using a non-standard gauge - but there are actually loads of exceptions anyway, Spain, Portugal, Eastern Europe. If it's OK for Spain etc. to use something else (apparently) without a problem, then it's OK for us to.

MarkoP11

The Irish Gauge was the average of the gauges used in 1840's

Dublin and Kingstown which as 4' 8 1/2"
Dublin & Drogheda which was 5' 2"
The Ulster Railway which was 6' 2'

The average fell to 5' 4" so how it became 5' 3" is an open question. The choice forced everyone to change

It was not a direct move to keep people in jobs, it was to ensure level playing field. At the time nearly every piece of rolling stock came from the UK. This continued even batches of quintessential Irish steam engine the 101 class (aka J15) was subcontracted to the UK. This continued unbroken until the 1960's when GM got the foot in the door. LHB broke the strangle hold in 1983 and since then stock has come from France, Spain and Japan

For more on the gauge issue, a mm by mm break down http://parovoz.com/spravka/gauges-e.html

spacetweek wrote:

Erm, yes we are. The RPA wouldn't have said it if it wasn't the intention.

The Harcourt Street issue is going off thread but, with the Luas built at 1435 mm gauge the proposed extension avoids the bulk of the old alignment is not metro spec and becomes redundant (2 major M50 bridges and all) if you build a metro. The old alignment is gone in places, notably Foxrock station is built over, the M50 and M11 have to be passed which is difficult with the line on a falling grade and passes both on the level currently and there are further issues in Shankill and Shanganagh. You really have to go out on foot to see the levels issues, since the Brides Glen viaduct and the road bridge over the line in Shankill really limit any trickery with bridges

The metro line is a classic crayon map by Mary O'Rourke, someone kind of forgot to actually do a survey

Gauge conversion is easy enough but the more Luas that goes down the less likely a metro will go in regardless of any issues of gauge or route

Capt'n Midnight

I remember seeing those "great railway journeys of the world" the one across Oz they lifted the carriges on to other bogies for the different sections of track. So in a lot of cases the gauge would be not be a critical factor when buying second hand stock. And being on an Island with tides means we don't have to worry about train ferries like they could in Baltic, great lakes and the med

What is the tolerance on the rail spacing - 0.2 mm ? Not a lot when you can get away with moving the rails 4mm. Also the thermal expansion of steel over 1.6m would be that over the year (I'm referring to the Axel not the sleepers) , so I still say we are about the only ones using a metric gauge on main line

as for the 5' 3" - they did the same thing with soundcards, the new standard was different to all existing ones so everyone had to change.

parsi

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

I remember seeing those "great railway journeys of the world" the one across Oz they lifted the carriges on to other bogies for the different sections of track. So in a lot of cases the gauge would be not be a critical factor when buying second hand stock.

The Mark II and the Marks Is (that were converted to vans) were all just rebogied to the new gauge...

jd

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Victor,
From what I told it goes back to the period when we had high unemployment in the 1800's -1900's. If we had the same size gauge as the rest of europe, then we could buy trains from European operators and put them straight onto our railways.
BUT, if we had a different size, then we could create employment by forcing the railway companies to employ people to have to adjust the width of the boogies on the train. Yes this cost the country, but hell it still goes on today, and the unions of the workers are happy, so Bertie is hardly going to upset them.
If you ever listen to IE or any politician talk, they all say the LUAS should be the same gauge as IE, which it should, but have you ever heard them defend the decision to go with a different gauge to our European neighbours.
If memory serves me correct, russia only engaged in this "employment practice" in the 1800's.

What a load of ****e. Who told you this-some guy in a pub?
JOhn

Lennoxschips

perhaps luas uses a narrower gauge because it takes up less space for the on-street bits.

Capt'n Midnight

Narrower gauges allow tighter turns handy for city streets. Tighter turns are cheaper because you need less land. You can't make the rails wider later on because the turns are too tight. Fitting narrow gauge rails on the track used by a wider gauge is fairly easy as shown by the reuse of parts of the old Harcourt street line.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote:

perhaps luas uses a narrower gauge because it takes up less space for the on-street bits.

This gauge choice was ok because the Luas is LRT, light rail. It cannot legally (on very good safety grounds) share tracks with heavy rail and thus will never do so. The ability to buy off-the-shelf trams from Alstom then makes sense.

D'Peoples Voice

jd wrote:

What a load of ****e. Who told you this-some guy in a pub?
JOhn

I agree it sounds like some conspiracy theory,
BUT in this country, nothing surprises me anymore!
No wait, that's lie, I must not exaggerate,
nothing suprises me apart from Michael Noonan's suggestion in the 2002 election that eircom shareholders get back their money because they didn't make a killing on their investment!
Afterall, no-one has explained why IE don't bite the bullet now and harmonise with most of the European carriers, so in years to come, second-hand carriages can be purchased, when the government runs out of it's current spending spree!

murphaph

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

....no-one has explained why IE don't bite the bullet now and harmonise with most of the European carriers, so in years to come, second-hand carriages can be purchased, when the government runs out of it's current spending spree!

You're beng sarcastic, right?

Victor

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

No wait, that's lie, I must not exaggerate, nothing suprises me apart from Michael Noonan's suggestion in the 2002 election that eircom shareholders get back their money because they didn't make a killing on their investment!

Off-topic, but yes it was popularism that is more familiar on the other side of the house. However the way it was structured - bringing the tax treatment of capital gains / losses into line with income tax - would probably be better than the current inequitable situation where work is taxed mroe than wheeling / dealing.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Afterall, no-one has explained why IE don't bite the bullet now and harmonise with most of the European carriers, so in years to come, second-hand carriages can be purchased, when the government runs out of it's current spending spree!

I wonder if the new concrete sleepers are designed to accept standard gauge? :eek:

enterprise

Victor wrote:

I wonder if the new concrete sleepers are designed to accept standard gauge? :eek:

Err, No.

spacetweek

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

... Fitting narrow gauge rails on the track used by a wider gauge is fairly easy as shown by the reuse of parts of the old Harcourt street line.

Slightly off-topic, anyone got any comments on how they're gonna convert Luas Green line into a metro? I presume they'll keep the standard gauge tracks, but won't all platforms have to be raised, paths and level crossings closed, stations made less open etc.? Sounds difficult. Not to mention the question of what will happen to the on-street section from Harcourt to Stephen's Green. Also it looks like the Cherrywood extension will feature an on-street section from Sandyford depot across the Leoparstown Dual Carraigeway on its way down to the M50. I don't feel like they're trying to future-proof the line; it's gonna be really hard to convert to Metro.

As for using standard gauge for LUAS, the RPA said they wanted to be able to buy standard trams from a European company. If they'd gone broad-gauge the trams would have to have been specially made for us. This would have inflated the cost even more than it already was. And you don't need it for integration with the broad-gauge lines as this doesn't happen in practice. Using broad gauge for Luas would have been ludicrous.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

Slightly off-topic, anyone got any comments on how they're gonna convert Luas Green line into a metro? I presume they'll keep the standard gauge tracks, but won't all platforms have to be raised, paths and level crossings closed, stations made less open etc.? Sounds difficult. Not to mention the question of what will happen to the on-street section from Harcourt to Stephen's Green. Also it looks like the Cherrywood extension will feature an on-street section from Sandyford depot across the Leoparstown Dual Carraigeway on its way down to the M50. I don't feel like they're trying to future-proof the line; it's gonna be really hard to convert to Metro.

It won't happen for decades, if ever.

Capt'n Midnight

spacetweek wrote:

Using broad gauge for Luas would have been ludicrous.

Using broad gauge for [the on street sections of] Luas would have been ludicrous.

They could have got from Shankill to Harcourt street with Normal Gauge, and shared existing rolling stock which is heavier, and probably longer lasting than "light rail". I remember seeing that each Luas line has the equilivant capacity of three QBC's. What is the QBC equilivant of the Dart or Arrow services ?

There is no point in making a metro to any other gauge than the mainline one. In the UK most of the "underground" is above ground. The most expensive part is tunneling and since the route would be new you don't have to make it fit.

I think it would be cheaper to build /extend elevated railway, like the current Dart than the sort of costs associated with the metro so far. You already have a bridge over the liffey at Island bridge and rail route to Phibsboro.

Or how about a third rail system so Luas could use mainline rails to get across the liffey from heuston to connoly - bit late but..

netwhizkid

Should Ireland Adopt Standard Gauge ? It would seem a practical idea if the Tuskar tunnel between us and Britain was to be built and thus connecting us to Europe and the Far east all via rail, the oppurtunites would endless.
On a different point,
How about a monorail for Dublin ? Don't start off with the simpsons gag,

It would be a practical solution without the super expense of a Metro or Tram system.

Do monrails use track or somesort of Hover system and are they compatable with Gauged railways ? I was just wondering while looking at Sydneys Transport map and i noticed that the Two systems were not linked up or anything.

Regards netwhizkid

Capt'n Midnight

Our gauge is wider than "standard" gauge which makes our trains more stable. If you look at old drawings of train accidents the company with the widest rails has a lot less derailed engines and carriges overturned than the narrower gauges.

Tuskar tunnel, don't hold your breath. It's a lot shorter to the Mull of Kintyre, (as long as you know where all the old munitions dumps are.)

The French had an aerotrain that hovered on a inverted T shaped concrete track. Didn't cost less than standard steel rails, but maintaince costs are tiny and a lot more terrorist proof.

Victor

"Or how about a third rail system so Luas could use mainline rails to get across the liffey from heuston to connoly - bit late but.." - Apparantly not safe.

I'm not sure if Luas vehicles are robust enough in case of collision with a train.

Luas operates at [strike]600V[/strike] 750V, DART at 1500V

jd

Victor wrote:

I'm not sure if Luas vehicles are robust enough in case of collision with a train.

You are being facetious-surely?!?!
jd

Victor

jd wrote:

You are being facetious-surely?!?!

No, chassis is at a different level.

MarkoP11

LUAS is 750v DC

It is forbidden to operate a tram on a heavy rail network so the choice of gauge for Luas indeed makes sense, however as we all can see now we should have built heavy rail line from Shanaganagh to Swords 10 years ago when we had the chance.

Trams do not incorparate the structural strength and collision resistance features all modern rolling stock does

While the track gauge is an issue the physical gauge is even more important, how wide can the coach, tram etc be that is independent of track gauge

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote:

"Or how about a third rail system so Luas could use mainline rails to get across the liffey from heuston to connoly - bit late but.." - Apparantly not safe.

I'm not sure if Luas vehicles are robust enough in case of collision with a train.

Luas operates at 600V, DART at 1500V

Voltage is not a biggie there are some international TGV's that run across a whole mix of voltages and frequencies, and even AC and DC.

The robustness is different , when a dart hits a car and it isn't derailled then it probably only needs a lick of paint.

murphaph

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Voltage is not a biggie there are some international TGV's that run across a whole mix of voltages and frequencies, and even AC and DC.

It is a biggie. the Luas can ONLY run on 750vdc. the DART can ONLY run on 1500Vdc. they were never designed to operate on any other respective voltages.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The robustness is different , when a dart hits a car and it isn't derailled then it probably only needs a lick of paint.

You're not considering running DART on public roads are you?

jd

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The robustness is different , when a dart hits a car and it isn't derailled then it probably only needs a lick of paint.

What about the car?!!?

MarkoP11

murphaph wrote:

It is a biggie. the Luas can ONLY run on 750vdc. the DART can ONLY run on 1500Vdc. they were never designed to operate on any other respective voltages.

Rail safety guidelines state that on street trams can only operate at 750v DC, off street the limit can be increased to any railway standard. The voltage has an effect on clearances and thence the structural gauge.

Owing to the modular design electronics of the Luas tram it could be converted to 1500v DC (it already shares a lot in common with some recent DART units) but that would forbid it from on street running

jd

murphaph wrote:

You're not considering running DART on public roads are you?

I think someone mentioned dart and luas sharing track..

MarkoP11

jd wrote:

I think someone mentioned dart and luas sharing track..

I don't think this has been raised recently different guage different power supply different platform heights, different signaling, but I have it in writting that the RPA wish the Luas and Metro to be "operationally linked", by that I'd assume they are talkign about sharing track.

Of course proposed metro is to be 1500v DC to a different loading and structual gauge so that ain't happening. I pointed out the technical and safety issues and guess waht got no answer funny that isn't it ?

Lennoxschips

There's a run of line out to Amstelveen from Amsterdam where the track goes along in the median of a dual carriageway. Trams and metros both use the same stretch of track so each stop has to have a low platform and a high platform.