What happened to Broadband over power lines?

wiredup

A few years ago in the UK there was talk of using power lines and an infrastructure for Internet access. I've seen networking kits that use the power cables in your house but why hasn't the power infrastructure been used to deliver broadband?

dahamsta

We're all talked out on BPL around here, or at least I am anyway. Have a look through these threads first to get yourself started.

http://www.google.ie/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=bpl+site%3Aboards%2Eie

adam

Solair

I read an article about Powerline broadband and there were a LOT of technical hitches. If you think DSL is tricky, don't even think about the powerline version of it.

The power network was obviously never designed to carry data and there are plenty of electrical obsticles on the network that would either completely block or degrade signals.

e.g. the signal can't get past a transformer, which means that you'd need something like a DSLAM at every small substation and it would be virtually impossible in rural areas where pole-mounted transformers are needed (bare in mind ESB has hundreds of thousands of these on the network.)

There are also umpteen different types of cable in use some of it is quite suitable some of it is totally unsuitable.

And to make matters more complicated, there are various grounding arrangements, that are designed to keep you safe, but would screw up data transmission. These vary from country to country too so what might work fine in Sweden might be totally incompatable with the Irish network.

Also, unlike the telephone network the power system does not give you a dedicated path back to the DSLAM. Each area's fed with single 3-phase (4 wire) circuit... so you'd be sharing the copper cable with potentially hundreds of homes and businesses.

It is possible, but it's still full of technical problems and I'm not sure that the power companies see any value for money in modifying existing power infrastructure to accomodate data traffic unless there's a big profit in it.

However, there is very extensive use of the high tension power transmission system to carry fiber optic cables along pylon routes. The fiber's just wrapped around the 110,000, 220,000 or 400,000 Volt lines! being glass, it's non conductive and totally uneffected by the power.

paulm17781

Solair, that is the best description of how broadband would "theorectically" work of power. I know understand why it couldn't. Thank you.

Solair

It's certainly possible but it's just not very practical unless you'd a purpose built power and data network.

ESB's fiber network however is already providing back bone capacity for a lot of alternative telcos, possibly including BT as they inherited capacity from Ocean (ESB/BT joint venture)

There is huge wireless potential in the ESB network though.

i.e. they've loads of vantage points for putting transmitters up (all of those very high pylons) and they've got the back haul capacity in terms of fiber optics running on the pylons alongside the powerlines..

So, they're actually ideally positioned to either directly provide or to sell services to the Wireless providers as well as the mobile phone companies.

You could yet see ESB Telecom launch WiMax or something of that nature with nodes all over the national grid and at substations throughout urban areas.

http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/ (explains all about their existing infrastructure... it's pretty impressive and often goes totally unnoticed)

They also developed a very substantial microwave system and always had a serious telecommunications network as they needed to be able to communicate between various sites and control and monitor equipment all over the country. At the time, P&Ts network was so bad that ESB apparently just gave up and built their own! They'd full digital telecommunications facilities at a time when P&T still had wind-up phones and partylines in many of the areas where ESB plants were located. So, they've also got the largest independent microwave system in the country. Again, providing endless locations for potential wireless operations!

Sponge Bob

Solair wrote:

So, they're actually ideally positioned to either directly provide or to sell services to the Wireless providers as well as the mobile phone companies.

Yes, and they are more realistic on entry level packages too, it was an STM1 2 years ago , then 100Mbit ethernet pipes and now its ring up for a chat ....maybe.

You could yet see ESB Telecom launch WiMax or something of that nature with nodes all over the national grid and at substations throughout urban areas.

They still see themseles as a wholesale carriers carrier so I would say not but its not immutable and I live in hope , far more hope than I had 2 years back.

Blaster99

Maybe you guys can confirm, but is the ESB exempt from planning permission? The reason I ask is that every ESB substation seems to have a big whopping mast beside it. That's gotta be worth a lot of money to them as it seems to be difficult to get planning permission for mobile masts.

Sponge Bob

Blaster99 wrote:

Maybe you guys can confirm, but is the ESB exempt from planning permission? The reason I ask is that every ESB substation seems to have a big whopping mast beside it. That's gotta be worth a lot of money to them as it seems to be difficult to get planning permission for mobile masts.

Yes and No.

If the ESB replaces an existing telephone pole type mast with a metal lattice tower they must get planning permission for the new tower.

Planners typically place no restrictions on the use of the new mast so the ESB are free to whack as many GSM cells as they like onto that new mast.

The planners generally allow the new (big) mast because it is presented as a 'replacement' for an existing (small) structure .

By the same logic, the ESB also puts GSM cells onto large 110kv or 220kv pylons without planning permission because each pylon is an existing structure and bacause there is no restriction on what they can hang off that structure.

Thats how the ESB wand these thru the system .

jbkenn

Yes, ESB towers are exempt from planning permission,and, yes, they are great little revenue earners, depending on location, ESB charge up to €12,500 p.a. for 3 + 2 on a mast, thats 3 120 degree sectors and 2 directionals, the new property boom..... radio towers


jbkenn

paulm17781

Solair wrote:

They also developed a very substantial microwave system and always had a serious telecommunications network as they needed to be able to communicate between various sites and control and monitor equipment all over the country. At the time, P&Ts network was so bad that ESB apparently just gave up and built their own! They'd full digital telecommunications facilities at a time when P&T still had wind-up phones and partylines in many of the areas where ESB plants were located. So, they've also got the largest independent microwave system in the country. Again, providing endless locations for potential wireless operations!

My grandfather was head of ESB communications at this time. He was telling me about this about a month ago.

thegills

i.e. they've loads of vantage points for putting transmitters up (all of those very high pylons) and they've got the back haul capacity in terms of fiber optics running on the pylons alongside the powerlines

Not entirely true. They may have the fibre passing hundreds of pylons but it's only broken out about 20 times. For example the leg from Citywest to Limerick can only be accessed in between at Stradbally and Toomevara.

I would agree they have a fantastic m/w network - my old company installed it...If only the Govt. could get them to open it up.

thegills

Solair

Opening up their microwave network might be rather tricky. Especially considering that it's private, not offering any commercial services and a vital part of the control system for the entire power network and keeping that up and running is absolutely priority number 1.

However, the locations of all those towers that support that system is the big deal.

Even if the fiber optic network only has 20 or so access points they should all be right beside that network of microwave towers. So, for wireless it would mean a nationwide radio/microwave system with fiber optic backhaul possible from at least 20 locations around the network which is a pretty huge potential alternative system. Those access points are also at the areas of the country where most traffic would be generated i.e. the cities.

All that would be required is to co-locate a second microwave network on the same towers. A new system would probably get far more data through similar bandwidth too.

SparkyLarks

It would be a great solution, a wireless network from every pylon but don't the ESB use the Fibre for transmitting their own data, voltage levels ect of the various sites around the country.

I don't think they want to do any thing thatt might have the remotest possiblillity of possibly maybe affecting it .

It's too big a risk for them to take that something might intefere with critical data.

I know it's ther is only a very remote possiblity of it happening but I think ESB are happy enough with very few customers( I think there are a few) using their fibre.

Urban Weigl

ESB. FTTH (fibre to the home), wrapped around the power line to every home.

This is the only viable, reasonably affordable solution for bringing a world class telecommunications network to Ireland at this point, and while it doesn't actually carry the data over the power-lines themselves, it does leverage the existing infrastructure.

The network could still be kept as a carriers carrier, since it might only be available on a wholesale basis (i.e. a provider or ISP interconnects with the ESB, and suddenly they have 1 gigabit into every home, paying a monthly fee to the ESB per home they connect). Due to the high capacity into each home, digital HDTV, on demand, digital radio, telephone and high speed internet can all be offered to every single customer.

The whole thing will pay for itself within 10 years, costing the Government virtually nothing (if the ESB has a good business plan, they can take up the money and pay it back plus interest within 10 years).

cgarvey

Surely the fibre wraps wouldn't withstand the varying tension of the power lines, in all but the HT cables, or short runs? Which would rule out most rural homes. It'd also rule out older housing estates in urban areas. And if we're talking about just underground runs, then that seems like a lot of work. In some cases less and in some cases more work than running a new independant network altogether.

If the fibre could withstand the varying tensions, wind, footballs, pairs of runners, etc.. then ignore the above!!
.cg

Solair

The fiber's fine along the transmission lines.

Running it over local distribution systems wouldn't be very practical at all. Remember, a lot of the cable is direct-burried! i.e. heavy protected cables that are just burried in the soil, no ducts necessary.

The overhead lines are either quadruplex (four heavy wires platted) or 4-wire stacks which cross over insulators at every pole.

It'd be a logistical nightmare to wrap those with fiber.

Far easier to just string new fiber from pole to pole and start from scratch