Water leak from ensuite into kitchen

Lex Luthor

A few weeks back I noticed a wet patch on the ceiling in the kitchen, where the ensuite is directly above. :eek:

This occurred just after we did some work in the ensuite (install new shower door enclosure and tile the floor.

It only happened every time someone had used the bathroom.

So, immediately I thought, the shower door wasn't sealed along the edges at the bottom. Sure enough I found some suspect areas so I sealed them up.

We used the main bathroom for a few days to see if the wet patch would dry up and it did.

Back to using the ensuite again a few days later and it came back again. :mad:
So I tried a process of elimination.

I ran the cold tap in the sink....nothing. OK can't be the sink
Ran the shower down the shower drain for 5 mins without it getting wet on the walls & shower door...nothing. Ok can't be the waste from the shower either. Thought it must be still the shower door.
Pumped more silicon around the edges...nothing for a few days...YES I FIXED IT.

Friday night about 5 mins after the wife used the shower, wet patch back again. :mad: :mad: OK, now I'm going out of my mind. Only thing is, it used to take at least 30-45 mins to show a wet patch after using the bathroom...so maybe the leak has got bigger?

Decided not to use the shower for the weekend and let it dry out.

Sun morning, dry as a bone.
Had a shave in the ensuite, half an hr later, leak again. :rolleyes:

Ok, can't be the shower. But I already ran the cold tap a few weeks back and eliminated the waste pipe for the sink.

Had a look round the back of the sink where the tap enters the sink and dry pipe all the way down to the joint where the 2nd fix pipe meets the first fix pipe. Then I noticed a drip of water coming from the joint.

Explained this to my neighbour who is a science teacher and wondered why it only leaked when the tap was running as to when it was off...surely the water is in the pipe all the time.

So he said, when you run the hot tap, the hot water comes from the tank, expands the pipe and the water leaks out. When you turn it off, the water cools down, the pipe diameter contracts and the leak disappears.

Make sense to you? Does to me.

SO the solder joint is not 100%.

Is there any DIY way I can seal this without having to get it re-soldered?

Sorry for the long a winding story....

kadman

Have you got good access to the joint, to work on it.

kadman

Snaggerman

Re-soldering would be the best treatment, but you could try cutting the pipe below the joint and adding in a standard compression fitting. Having said that, I can't imagine that this is the source of your problems. You've just had the ensuite tiled? To do this properly I assume that your tiler removed the loo pan and pedestal? If so, he most likely strained the feeds when trying to re-install them. He would have had to raise the sink and cistern to accommodate the extra 15mm or so and without adding to the pipes (feed & waste) it's possible to get leaks at every joint. For that amount of water, it's more than likley to be a waste problem, an occasional leak from pipe expansion wouldn't be so severe!

rooferPete

Hi Lex,

You appear to have two things in common, when the sink is running and when the shower is used.

The reason the shower didn't show a leak could be because there was nobody in it, yet when your wife used it her weight could have put pressure on the waste pipe opening the joint.

If the waste pipes are connected under the floor that may explain why the sink leaks on occasion.

Vertical solder joints are not easy to solder, equally the solder is not easy to break I am not sure I could go with your neighbours theory because the hot supply shouldn't exceed 60 degrees not really enough to expand the copper.

The other thing is if a pipe expands in a joint it is more than likely going to seal the joint and open it when it cools (contraction).

The pressure on both the hot and cold in the hand basin is strong because it's fed from the attic storage tank, so it should leak more when the tap is off because the pipe is under full pressure.

We had a similar one a while back in Enfield where a new suite was fitted and the floor tiled, it turned out the builder had screwed into the waste pipe, when he came back and fixed the problem it lasted 2 days, we took the floor up with the customers permission, turned out he used duct tape over the leak.

What can happen on the basin is when it is running water can get between the tap and the sink, it will drip down and may be landing on the joint of the pipe.

I agree with Snaggerman in that I don't believe your main problem is from the basin but I can't see how the tiler would get the pedestal and bowl lifted while still connected, most just tile around them.

That said nothing would surprise me anymore.

.

Lex Luthor

It's definitely not from the toilet. I took toilet paper and wrapped it round the hot feed pipe on the sink last night before I went to bed.

One big piece above the joint and one below on the floor. That way I would know which section was leaking.

I ran the hot tap for 2-3 mins and let it be for the night. Before I nodded off, there was only one or 2 drips coming from the joint.

This morning the paper on the ground below the joint was soaking wet, above it, it was dry.

It must be just taking a long time to drip out.

It's awkward enough to get to the pipe where they are joined. I'll be able to take the basin pedastel out with a bit of shifting and that will give me a lot more room. After that, I think I'll just cut it out with a jr. hack saw and fit a small intermediate straight through joint with a valve as I'm there.

I located the valve for the water supply to the hot tank, so I can knock that off and empty out the tank before I work on it.

I think I'm at fault for this because when I tiled the floor a wile back, I put sheets of plywood down on the T&G and while I was trying to fit it round the pipes, I probably knocked off them a good bit and maybe worked out teh solder joint.

Thanks for the replies.

Tom

gregos

Lex Luthor wrote:

I think I'll just cut it out with a jr. hack saw and fit a small intermediate straight through joint with a valve as I'm there.

If you don't already have one, buy yourself a little tool called a pipe-slice. That's the best gadget for cutting a pipe in an awkward space close to a wall.

Lex Luthor

I picked up some stuff today in Woodies...it's for sealing small leaks in pipes. It's a block with what looks like 2 different materials in a hard paster format. You are just basically to kneed the 2 bits together and work it into a soft paste and work it in and around the leak until hard. Anyone heard of it? Is it just a temp fix and will it leak in the future?

kadman

Lex Luthor wrote:

I picked up some stuff today in Woodies...it's for sealing small leaks in pipes. It's a block with what looks like 2 different materials in a hard paster format. You are just basically to kneed the 2 bits together and work it into a soft paste and work it in and around the leak until hard. Anyone heard of it? Is it just a temp fix and will it leak in the future?

Would that be liquid metal Lex. You can sand it, grind, drill it, and tap it.
I've never used it , but I know people who have , and they swear by it.

kadman

Lex Luthor

kadman wrote:

Would that be liquid metal Lex. You can sand it, grind, drill it, and tap it.
I've never used it , but I know people who have , and they swear by it.

kadman

Here we go, is called 'PLUMBERFIX'

see http://www.sylglas.com/products/plumberfix.htm

the fact the pipe is located behind the pedastel, I'm not too bothered by it's appearance.

Lex Luthor

Just also found a leak in the tap above where the leaking joint is....I need to remove the tap and replace the seal, but not sure where I can get the special 90 deg angle wrench to access in there.

The nut that clamps the tap to the underneath of the sink looks like about 20-24mm and the nut on the 1/2" copper pipe looks the standard 13mm.

Are they std sizes and anybody know where I can get one of these wrenches?

Also, are taps available separately or would I have to replace them as a paired set?

rooferPete

Hi Lex,

There is a tool for getting at the conex fitting the old name was a footprint, the new one is easier to use and moire accurate, take care if either tool slips under pressure you can break the basin.

Buy a pair of taps if that's what you need, it is unusual for a tap to leak and show under the basin, most of the seals are above the basin under the cover on the top part of the tap.

It will take patience regardless of what way you approach it because everything is in your way, the tap wrench is about 15 euro, a long time since I had to buy one but available in most plumbing suppliers.

Lex Luthor

I found the issue with the leaking tap.

The original source of the problem was a 80c washer in the tap that was causing the tap to drip. :rolleyes: So the wifey had been swinging out of the tap to tighten it so it wouldn't drip. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That caused the tap to move as she tightened & loosened it and the fitting from the water pipe to the tap made its way loose a 1/3 turn which was enough to cause a small dripping leak.
Managed to get my pipe wrench in under the sink and get a small turn on the fitting and seal the leak and tightened down the tap locking nut also a little by hand.
Bought the little rubber washer and replaced it and it's leak tight.
Thanks for the replies, especially from Pete for his suggestions.

spooky donkey

Man ive had a similar with my bath. Ive been trying to fix it a long time. I think evey time i seal the bath the bath drops with the weight. I even filled it wit water and got in to it while sealing it. Its a little better but still leaks some of the time. Im still not sure from where.

rooferPete

Hi Spooky,

The problem could be as simple as the legs of the bath were not adjusted properly when the bath was installed.

It could also be the supports were packed up with not very stable timbers, them again if you combine the movement and the trap it may not have been tightened properly.

There is no need to overtighten the trap to the waste pipe, if you can take off the bath panel without breaking it you should get a good view of the supports, the centre one is usually the culprit.

.

GreeBo

Spooky, have you identified if its
(a) the taps?
(b) the plug/waste?
(c) the seal against the wall?

Let the water run into the bath (with the side panel off) and the plug in, now you can see if its (a)
Now take the plug out, is it (b)?
now run some water against the seal with each wall, is it (c)?
Depending on where the problem is the solution could be quite simple (b) versus a pain in the arse (c)!

tigerman

It takes a little more to installing a bath than to just throw it into the corner and ajust the legs.

The frame that comes with the bath simply is not enough to support it.

I always make a 2x1"wooden frame all around the bath when i install secure them to the wall,

You have to appreciate movement in a fiberglass bath when a 16 stone person hops in and out of it.

I have seen bath problems where water has gone down the side and ruined the plasterboard behind.

if you have a fair bit of water coming down to the ceiling then make a screwdriver hole where the water drips and place a bowl there to drain the water off to save ruining the ceiling.

Remember good quality work takes time.



Aqua masterheating +plumbing, Dublin City. 086 0738198