EP3 The good and bad !!!spoilers!!!

jaggeh

first an explanation
the good - things that i feel were done well and looked good
the bad - things that i feel were handled badly or looked terrible on screen


The good

The opening battle is a fantastic scene, it doesnt have the feel of the battle of endor but its nearly there. there is so many ships and the battle is so mixed i would describe it more as visual chaos.

Palpatines scripting for the most part was top notch, pushing anakin down the dark path in small steps and using positive re-inforcement by reminding him of his past indescretions and saying they were ok. very well done...

The comedy releif in the form of R2D2, very light hearted and humerous, the only moments like this in the film are at the start because its down the slope into darkness from then on.

The new war machines for both armies are very well designed and some of the EU stuff turns up, the wheeled AT-AT and the AT-PT.

Spot the YT-1300 (is it the falcon? we will never know)

The Dooku fight, short and sweet, very nice moves.

The wookies, we saw enough of them to see how feirce they can be, and little enough not to be annoyed by the llama-esque bawling.

Obi-wan throughout the whole film kicked so much ass that he shouyld have been givin an ass-kicking medal. The battle with greivous on utapu was very well done if a bit anti-climactic.

the birth of the vader we know, clawing his way out of the lava screaming hatred at obi-wan while burning alive.......fantastic, but not for young kids.

The effects through-out were amazing.


The BAD

The dialogue in the most part was dire, and a lot of the acting was very cardboard cutout feeling. any mention of the word 'younglings' brought a cringe as it was done so badly that i thought captain kirk was talking.

Greivous henchmen, in the game and the clone wars cartoons they are done waaaaaaaay better and in the film they are given merely a passing glance.

gravity is relative, when greivous ship over turns and everyone falls to the side.........that makes zero sense, would have been better if it was zero gravity.

The timing, there was a lot of bad cuts and it really put the whole film off.
when obiwan looks at the security recording of palpatine congratulating anakin on bringing peace to the empire, this recording was made during the assault on the temple which was several days before the announcement for the galactic empire. if this was meant to be it was still done badly.

most of the duels are filmed too close and are heavily CG'ed, sidious versus anyone was terrible, while it was nice to see him fight it could have been done better.

Mace windu's death, very anticlimactic and this scene was also palpatine/sidious's worst.

The purge, it was too short and badly cut, some of the death scenes were badly done, the worst was ki-adi-mundi who managed to die going up against 8 or so clone troops, did he not learn how to deflect bolts?

the amount cut out of the film, again back to the bad cuts, the whole thing screams dvd release.

The birthing scene sucked and the padme's death was unexplained, would have been nice for something at least

The CG tarkin, while good to see him they should have used an actor.

anyway ive had 4 hours sleep in the last 2 days thanks to seeing EP3 three times, and in my opinion its good enough to watch again, these were just some of the things i liked/disliked about it. so im off to bed.

mayordenis

Decent analysis but . . .

jaggeh wrote:

gravity is relative, when greivous ship over turns and everyone falls to the side.........that makes zero sense, would have been better if it was zero gravity.

you dont really "get" the whole gravity thing do ya?

Cant wait for a 6 part box set will be most delicious

aidan_walsh

I think what he is trying to say is that you wouldn't expect something like this in an artifical gravity bubble, espcially in a series that has contradicted it numerous times before. For example, think of the start of AotC, where Padme's ship approaches Coruscant, and flips over as it approaches.

Mind you, being in such a low orbit, its possible that no bubble was in place, in which case it would be perfectly logical.

mathie

The bad ...

Plot holes

From VI

Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong?
Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

M

shacko

Really enjoyed the film. But WTF. What a cop ut at the end were Yoda tell anakin about talking with Qu Gon. Lucas explains the whole bForce Body thing in one trow away line. When he should of dumped the cringe worthy Love scene's at the start and brought Neeson back for a couple of scenes. Hated th Cheesy Frankinstien moment with Vader. Lucas also should of let Loose and let us see Anakin strike down th Younglings, Why does Obi wan not remember that Luke has a Sister on Dagobah. When he talks to Yoda about Luke being there last hope.... I hated Grivous in the clone wars he Kicked ass.. But here he's just a Old man who walks like a Duck and goughs and splutters about the Place.

johnnyc

the actor who played anakin skywalker sucked?

shacko

He's a HAMasauraus Rex

johnnyc

you think he could have a bit more depth, i would make a better anakin skywalker then what the hell is that actor hatkan chriseten (sorry about the spelling)

TheDoc

It was originally planned for Neeson to re-appear to speak with Obi Wan (Not anakin you tit) But Liam was too busy filming for Kingdom of Heaven to film scenes for the film. There is talk of it been done after, for a DVD release.

shacko

Too busey filming Kindom of Heaven. He is only in it for 10 Minutes.

I just didnt like how the whole force body think gets explained in one trow away line

mathie

shacko wrote:

Too busey filming Kindom of Heaven. He is only in it for 10 Minutes.

I just didnt like how the whole force body think gets explained in one trow away line

How did it get explained?
What was all this Qui Gonn stuff?
Was I asleep for that bit?

M

seamus

mathie wrote:

The bad ...

Plot holes

From VI

Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong?
Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

M

Well, that can be kind of written away. Perhaps Leia is talking about her mother on Dagobah. After all, they do say they were split up after they were born - which seems to be the original trilogy contradicting itself. Although it can be written away, I'd say it was an oversight when writing that scene originally, not when creating the new trilogy.

Kingsize

christensen is a decent enough actor aparently george lucas has a habit of picking the worst takes to put in the movies! this could always be argued to be Authentic as lucas originally wanted to pay tribute to 30s-40s (badly acted)sci fi serials

jaggeh

after reading the script. i can see where a large scene, where qui gon appears to yoda and warns him of dark times approaching and how to become one with the force, was cut.

there is continuity problems there with what leia says in episode 6, but she could be talking about her adopted mother, as at the time luke was talking to her she didnt know she was adopted.

The Bollox

ok, seriously, is this a piss-take? it seems that a few ppl do not have a clue about Star Wars! first off:

Shacko wrote:

What a cop ut at the end were Yoda tell anakin about talking with Qu Gon

Yoda told Obi Wan, not Anakin! get your characters right!

Shacko wrote:

Why does Obi wan not remember that Luke has a Sister on Dagobah

*sigh* Luke has a sister on Alderaan, not Dagobah! Yoda went in exile in Dagobah!

Mathie wrote:

Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong?
Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

this is not a shot at your knowlage of Star Wars btw, I had a think about this too, now more than likely its a hole Lucas didn't see, but it could just be that Leia thoight Mrs. Organna WAS her real mother.

and sorry about that, it just made me cringe worse than listning to some of the cheesy lines you hear in the films.

mathie

Marts wrote:

ok, seriously, is this a piss-take? it seems that a few ppl do not have a clue about Star Wars! first off:

Yoda told Obi Wan, not Anakin! get your characters right!


*sigh* Luke has a sister on Alderaan, not Dagobah! Yoda went in exile in Dagobah!



this is not a shot at your knowlage of Star Wars btw, I had a think about this too, now more than likely its a hole Lucas didn't see, but it could just be that Leia thoight Mrs. Organna WAS her real mother.

and sorry about that, it just made me cringe worse than listning to some of the cheesy lines you hear in the films.

I guess maybe Leia could have been referring to Bail Organas wife ...

I wonder if there are any other inconsistencies coming from EP III concerning the original trilogy?

M

The Bollox

well Obi Wan doesn't remember R2 or 3PO

Obi Wan wrote:

I don't recall every owning a droid

but I suppose in fairness, he never really owned them, but who could forget them?

Illuvatar

Well he did the best he could I suppose.
When all six come out that's going to be awesome and then watch them all in a row. YES! I figured it would be 11 hours and 30 minutes, roughly.

Pigman II

Marts wrote:

well Obi Wan doesn't remember R2 or 3PO

Why would he? From what I can tell droids in the SW universe have the social standing of slaves and the uniqueness of a playstation console.

yawnstretch

They shouldnt have used Hayden for the Darth Vader Costume moment - he looked like a midget - remember Vader walking alongside Luke in ROTJ - He was monstrous! And the CHEEEESE when the emperor tells him Padme is dead...

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo - arms flailing. (Hilariously bad - they should've had the camera shake for comic effect).

Oh and Leia remembering her mother is clearly a mistake as Luke is trying to tell Leia that they're brother and sister.

Still - was enjoyable enough - check out the game on PS2 - its actually quite decent

Roar

anakin never told obi wan to give his lightsabre to his child, which is what obi wan says to luke in ep 4.

unless obi wan starts suffering from memory loss after ep 3, its irritating that he doesnt remember r2 especially, considering the amount of times at the start he calls him on the com link etc.

why oh why oh why was dooku killed off so early.. he was the best thing about the last one...

still though, quality show.. i started clapping yesterday when it ended...

monkeyfudge

jaggeh wrote:

The CG tarkin, while good to see him they should have used an actor.

It was an actor. It was the guy who plays Scorpios in Farscape.

Like most people I was hugely disappointed in General Grievous in the film. He was so menacing in the Clone Wars cartoon and he was always itching to test out his skills on the Jedi, not running off at the first sign of trouble.

I did like the nice touch of his coughing though, as the last time we see him in the Clone Wars he was just at the recieving end of Mace Windu who used a force attack to crumple up his chest. I guess this could also be the reason why he wasn't on top fighting form for the rest of the film.

Oh.. and I thought the giant lizard that Obi Wan was running around on was a bit rubbish.

The Bollox

Roar wrote:

anakin never told obi wan to give his lightsabre to his child, which is what obi wan says to luke in ep 4.

not quite, Obi wan says:

Obi Wan wrote:

your father would have wanted you to have this when you were old enought, but your uncle wouldn't allow it

monkeyfudge

Roar wrote:

unless obi wan starts suffering from memory loss after ep 3, its irritating that he doesnt remember r2 especially, considering the amount of times at the start he calls him on the com link etc.

Actually he does show a small degree of familiarity to R2 D2 in A New Hope. On first seeing him after chasing off the Sand People he says something like "Hello, little friend." I wouldn't put it past Lucas to have this changed to "Hello, old friend" in the near future though.

jaggeh

It was an actor. It was the guy who plays Scorpios in Farscape.

yes it was an actor, with a young peter cushings face cg'ed onto his.

Pigman II

CG'd? I thought it was a prosthetic?

shacko

I missed that scene completly were was crushings face

monkeyfudge

shacko wrote:

I missed that scene completly were was crushings face

At the end. On the bridge of the Star Destroyer over seeing the construction of the Death Star.

robinph

monkeyfudge wrote:

At the end. On the bridge of the Star Destroyer over seeing the construction of the Death Star.

And it takes them 20 years to finish building the first Death Star, but only 6 or so to build a second bigger one?

'Motivational' techniques must have progressed a bit in the years between I guess.

jaggeh

nah, the first one was built in absolute secrecy with a minimal workforce. the second one had a massive workforce behind it to accelerate its construction.

mewso

I'm pretty sure R2D2 can't spray oil or fly in the old films but then who cares for the sake of bland entertainment. By the way on the Obi-Wan having to be told by Yoda that there is another hope. You can easily imagine that Obi-Wan has not considered Lei as a likely Jedi. Their hope is in a Jedi Knight child of Skywalker as opposed to just a child of Skywalker and Luke has obviously shown th emost interest.
As far as mistakes go it all began with the idea of Anakin being born on Tatooine if you ask me. Slippery slope. I think the idea that Lucas had all 9 stories written is rubbish when you think of Lei smooching Luke etc. I can almost imagine him saying "Sh!t hiding Luke on Tatooine might look a bit naff. Oh well".

slave1

Obi-Wan having to be told by Yoda that there is another hope

it was yoda to Luke, not yoda to Ob1

the OB1 to luke light sabre explanation by mart is correct, regardless of the wording ANAKIN WOULD have wanted his son to have his light sabre, and nice move having OB1 pick up anakins light sabre after he chopped off his legs/arm
I did however think that vader had only one goof apendage, an arm, however it was his mechanical arm that survived the fight with OB1

Grevious was much better in the clone wars

Dooku had to go early to make way for a new apprentice, as well pointed out "short and sweet"

Re Hayden Christensen's acting, maybe thats the way GL wanted Anakin protrayed, SW is not about acting, even Ewan McGregor couldn't save the dialogue he was presented with

Leia remembering her mother, she is the child of the chosen one so would have inherent powers to remember possibly, anyhow her adopted parents could have told her that her mother died when she was 3 or something, this is not a critical plot hole IMO

Qui Jon stuff relates to the disappearing jedi school of thought, many threads on this in the starwars.com forums, pretty much confirmed by the inclusion of this dialogue in ROTS

artifical gravity, please, what about the noise the ships make in space, all the fire and explosions, cmon, they are not intelligent comments

The timing, there was a lot of bad cuts and it really put the whole film off.
when obiwan looks at the security recording of palpatine congratulating anakin on bringing peace to the empire, this recording was made during the assault on the temple which was several days before the announcement for the galactic empire

so Palpadine just let Anakin in on some insider knowledge, not an issue

someone mentioned luke in love etc, not in the film so not canon, EU does not count

good
the opening bit where they flew across the big shadow, I always liked that effect, reminder of a similar scene in TESB
tieing up the loose ends was handled well
showing the butchered Vader
better then the previous 2 films
the time flew, always a good sign
leaving the disappearing jedi outside the films for folk like us to discuss further

bad
quick execution of the jedi going to arrest palpadine
padame's lines
the fact it was the last SW film ever

final thoughts, I can't believe noone has mentioned the alluded to dialogue Palpadine was at in the opera when he talked about a Sith with so much power he could create artifical life, this leads me directly to my long standing belief that it was Palpadine ( now confirmed as Sideous ) who "engineered" Anakin, and is in fact his "father". So at the end of ROTJ, Luke gets his father to kill his own father

jaggeh

I can't believe noone has mentioned .....blah...blah....

i did

Palpatines scripting for the most part was top notch, pushing anakin down the dark path in small steps and using positive re-inforcement by reminding him of his past indescretions and saying they were ok. very well done...

Moe79

The Good

Much better and much more gripping than Eps 1 and 2.

Hayden Christensen's acting had improved ten times, and I actually really believe that he commanded the entire film. The film was about him/Anakin, and it was his story that it felt like I was following the whole way through the movie.

The destruction of the Jedi and the Republic.. from the moment the first Jedi were slaughtered by palpatine, I was gripped.. it was all handled perfectly from then.. tense, edge-of-seat stuff.

The Emperor - truly evil.

The final battle with Anakin and Obi Wan, culminating in the amazing scenes of Anakin being burnt alive.

Darth Vader's birth and the birth of Luke and Leia.

Padme's funeral. Nice, touching shot, and an appropriate use of Jar Jar.

The tieing up of loose ends.. the final few scenes were brilliant, and it made me immediately want to watch Ep IV. (Which I did, later, and it there was a whole new feeling watching the opening 45 minutes now). So many great blanks filled in - the separation of the twins, Yoda's exile, Obi Wan's self-imposed exile on Tatooine, the droids being given to Captain Antilles with 3-PO's memory being erased and even the appearance of Tarkin on a wonderful recreated set of the Star Destroyer.

The Bad

Lack of C-3PO throughout. I couldn't believe how little he featured. It was almost as little screen time as he got in Episode I. Why was this?

Some of the dialogue, as always with Star Wars, was bad, cheesy, corny et al.

Too much CGI. It didn't bother me as much in this one as it did in Attack of the Clones, but still.. just once, a nice old fashioned setting without a zillion things going on out the window would be nice.

And I guess, a lack of Padme, but at least it's understandable that she couldn't feature in all the action stuff given her pregnancy.

AdMMM

My viewing experience was greatly hindered as the surround sound was on the blink for about 3/4 of the film, with it only coming on in 2 minute burts! Mind you I got my money back but I don't think I was able to fully appreciate the opening battle scene and everything that was going on with only one speaker on the far side of the cinema in operation!

I also couldnt appreciate the excellent lightsabre battles because of the sound and the lightsabres just sounded like a generic "buzz" instead of what I was used to.

Mind you, I complained and got my money back and will probably go see it again soon!

About the story line, yes there are a few holes here and there, but we must understand that Episode III was the hardest of the 3 prequels to make and I think Lucas generally did a good job in filling in the gaps, however the last 10 minutes or so of the film were incredibly rushed and I would have liked it if the scenes were slightly longer.

I thought the lead up to the Obi Wan - Anakin battle was excellent. With Anakin having slayed the "younglings" it established that we were to hate Anakin for the battle and put it's foot down in the matter that Anakin was never coming back from the Dark Side. The battle itself was excellent, although how the **** did they manage to get out onto those connecting pipes??

Also, was it just me who noticed that the other Jedi's were absolutely ****e at fighting, they were all killed within seconds and then you have Obi Wan kicking 12 shades of shìt out of the clones!

Overall, it was an excellent movie, one that will be made better with proper sound!

Teg Veece

Just saw ROTS yesterday. Have to say I loved it. Really entertaining, think Lucas finally managed to break free from many of the shackles that had been restricting him during Ep I & II.
I have a question which I'm sure people who have been indulging themselves in Episode III spoilers over the last three years will know the answer to. Does Obi Wan scare off the sand people in Episode IV by mimicing the cries of the lizard type thing he rode in Revenge? I know originally it was said in the star wars lore that it was a Krayt Dragon he was imitating but did Lucas ignore this in order to establish another link between both trilogies?

CerebralCortex

Its spelt "Degobah" people come on.

robinph

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Also, was it just me who noticed that the other Jedi's were absolutely ****e at fighting, they were all killed within seconds and then you have Obi Wan kicking 12 shades of shìt out of the clones!

Well in their defence they were taken by surprise and they would not be able to 'sense', the clones about to turn evil on them as they were just following orders same as they were a couple of second before. And it was Obi-Wan 's dragon thing that saved him by falling off the cliff into the water.

Did he even attack any of the clones then before jumping in the ship and getting the hell out of there?

Pigman II

CerebralCortex wrote:

Its spelt "Degobah" people come on.

You'd better go correct the official site then too :rolleyes:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/dagobah/

jaggeh

CerebralCortex wrote:

Its spelt "Degobah" people come on.

no it isnt

jaggeh

i had you beat, stupid ie closing my boards session on me mid post grrr

mewso

slave1 wrote:

it was yoda to Luke, not yoda to Ob1

In Jedi yes but in Empire when Luke leaves to help the others Obi-Wan says he is their last hope and Yoda says no there is another.

Teg Veece

musician wrote:

In Jedi yes but in Empire when Luke leaves to help the others Obi-Wan says he is their last hope and Yoda says no there is another.

Wasn't that in Jedi just before Luke left to face Vader..

pbsuxok1znja4r

The Good

ANY scene with Sidious/Palpatine. His script was amazing, his delivery impeccable. That twisted smile...His battle with Windu and co. was great. What a vicious ****er he is...."I'm too weak....too weak........Mwaagh!!!" /owns windu with force lightning!

Some of the Anakin-Kenobi scenes. While Anakin burns alive: "You were the chosen one...". That got me all teary when Kenobi shouted that...
On the landing pad, with Anakin screaming "You turned her against me!" at Kenobi. Very powerful.

The instant where Anakin beheads Dooku. This was great, you can't really believe what you've just seen, its shocking! Did he really just do that?

Just when the Mask goes on The moment you first hear THE BREATH coming from the mask. It was glorious.

Anakin burning alive, limbs cut off, screaming pain and hatred


The Bad
Most scenes with Padme.

Any of the parts where they talked politics.

C3P0.

I hated the human qualities of the robots. I hated that they talked to eachother in a slapstick manner. Their sarcasm "you're welcome!" etc.

Then, being so attached to starwars, I tried to rationalise the use of human behaviour in the robots. So that I wouldn't have to dislike this part of the film.

Wanna hear what I came up with?

When designing robots, their creators decided that it was a weakness for them all to be alike and programmed in only one line of thinking - war.

Human soldiers, the robots' opposition, come from a complex emotional background and are familiar with all manner of subjects and situations outside of battle. Using their instincts and previous non-battle experiences in battle situations would prove to be a great asset to each soldier.

And let's talk about communication.

For these robots to work together and overcome the human forces, they would need to cooperate. What's the point in working together and brainstorming, if every unit thinks in the same way? To open up a wide avenue of solutions in battle situations, robots should be programmed with different personality traits and ideas.

How do you win in battle? Think like your opponent!

How do robots think like humans? They can be programmed to do so.

So what we may see as a useless function, could actually have useful permutations in a battle environment.

Teg Veece

While i enjoyed the opening scenes alot, one thing that really bugged me was the chatter between the droids. It wasn't so much what they were saying but rather the tone of the super battle droids. It seemed as if the sound editor was having a laugh when he gave them the same voices as the standard run-of-the-mill scrawny droids. It's like the Arnie having a girly voice or something.

The Bollox

Teg Veece wrote:

Wasn't that in Jedi just before Luke left to face Vader..

no, because after Yoda dies in his house and he says his last words: "luuuke... there... is... ano..ther... ssssky...walk...ker" Luke goes outside and tells artoo that he can't do it, then Obi wan appears telling him Yoda will always be with him, so Luke asks him about his fater and then he says "Yoda spoke of another" "the other he spoke of is your twin sister"

and in Empire, Yoda stands there with the 'ghost' of Obi wan and Obi wan says "that boy was our only hope" but Yoda says "no, there is another"

Teg Veece

Ah yeah. It's all coming back to me now. I'm really due another viewing of Empire.

Anyone know if the noise the lizard creature Obi Wan used was meant to be the same as the sound he used to scare off the Sandpeople years later?

The Bollox

Teg Veece wrote:

Ah yeah. It's all coming back to me now. I'm really due another viewing of Empire.

Anyone know if the noise the lizard creature Obi Wan used was meant to be the same as the sound he used to scare off the Sandpeople years later?

y'know I always thought it was the fact that Obi Wan was a jedi that scared off the sand ppl, and that the noise was just to get their attention

Teg Veece

Hmmm... I think i read somewhere that he was mimicing the call of a Krayt Dragon (native predator on Tatooine). Going a bit off topic.

One review said that mouse droids make a return in Revenge... i completely missed them. Where were they?

iguana

mathie wrote:

The bad ...

Plot holes

From VI

Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong?
Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

M

Your REAL mother.

She wasn't talking about Lady Organa, she was talking about the woman who gave birth to her. If she remembered her mother and Luke didn't it means that Padme did not die giving birth. And while it isn't canon in Dark Force Rising Leia is thinking about her mother's sadness and how that was caused by Vader.

Padme dying in childbirth was a continuity error. As was Obi Wan being aware that Luke had a sister.

ROTS, imo, was pretty much unmitigated sh*te up to and including Anakin turning to the dark side. After that I thought it was very effective, left me feeling like the first movies did. Makes me want to read Truce at Bakura again, for the Leia/Anakin scenes.

I just wish the whole trilogy had been done properly. It could have been so very, very good.