40+ IT professional - can't get job!!

dewsbury

Hi,
I am early forties, professional IT consultant and have been struggling to find
a job for 4 years.
I can get well-paid managerial temporary contracts for several months at a time but nothing permanent. I am in Dublin.

Ironically in the 1980's I was always in permanent employment.
Having said that , it is a bit of a myth that "half" the population was unemployed
in the 80's. Nobody I knew was employed - admittedly some went to UK/USA but much of that was
for experience/excitement.
(I worked in USA for the 1990's).

I am generally well respected professionally but reckon that my age may be going
against me.

Anybody else in a similar position?
Any other sensible views?

formatman

knowledge and experience doesn't always cut it now with the multinationals , they just want yes sir no sir types that don't go against the corporate agenda

Einstein

I'm an IT contractor. Very few places these days look for permanant employees. I've been on a 6 month contract for 3 years at this stage, it's cheaper on the companies, and means that they can drop u like a hot snot if they feel like it and give you no reason.

Dave

WhiteWashMan

what exactly is the problems youre facing?

is it a case of you cant find the perfect job for you or you just cant any position?

i know several people who are currently ona sabatical simply becuase they cannot find the kind of work that they would like to do, rather than take 'any' job.

i am surprised though, i would have thought someone with IT experience of over 10 years would have no problem.

RicardoSmith

I had a similar experience. I think its hard to get out of contracting as you get pigeon holed as contractor. I had to downgrade my CV and my own sales pitch to get back into a full time role. Ironically I got a role that suited me perfectly, after a year or more of trying to oversell myself. Underselling myself worked better. I also had to convince them I wanted out of contracting. I always managed to pick up contracts, but it wasn't the kind of work I wanted or that would help me find other work. In the end I just got lucky and I guess my experience of contracting made me a bit more savvy.

A few colleagues of mine have had no problems getting work. But they have just the right skillset, and were lucky enough to find a good position in a good company at the right time. They would swear the IT market is grand. But then I've other collegues who haven't been so lucky. To be honest I wouldn't say that either group is more qualified than the other, or better skilled. It just the way it happens sometimes. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don't.

However competition seems to tougher. You need to have the exactly the right skillset for the role you are trying for. If that means leaving stuff off the CV then by all means do. It might work in your favour to be more modest! But you need to know everything on your CV. So if you haven't done something in a while make that clear.

dewsbury

Thank you all for comments and interest.

"what exactly is the problems youre facing?"

Simply this, I cannot get a permanent job. Believe me I have not been overly fussy and have altered my CV and my salary expectations considerable.

It must be said that I do not have a lot of the current 'hot' skills which is definately a problem. I do find that when I work on a contract I am respected as a professional and it is assumed that I could get load of jobs in the morning.

Sometimes I reckon that the person interviewing me (which is v. rare) is perhaps 10 years younger. This may make them uncomfortable. I have no problem with this. Lets me re-assure you that if you knew me personally & professionally and personally you would assume that I would have no difficulty in find many jobs.
I have 2 on-going contracts at present but both will expire in July/Aug then it is back to searching again. This often means months of unemployment (up to 12 months!).

chump

I'm guessing you've answered your own problem when you say:

It must be said that I do not have a lot of the current 'hot' skills which is definately a problem

It might be expected that being a professional you should be continually upgrading your skills. They might look on the fact that you haven't, that you aren't willing... or might assume because of your age that if you haven't worked in a group using these 'hot' skills that's you'll find it hard to adapt, unlike maybe a fresher candidate who still is in the process of skilling up...

I don't mean this to be offensive in anway, but it's just my perspective...

RicardoSmith

Thats the problem contracting. They only pay you to use the skills you have, so you have to fund your own training yourself. No training on the job. You're also usually under severe time pressure on contract, so theres no time to do it either. After 6 months on a contract you still haven't updated the skillset. So you end up in a catch 22.

The IT market these days means you have to take an objective look at your skillset on a reqular basis and keep updating it as required. I remember one agency guy said there were 200 applicants for one programming role he had. So you have to ask yourself, would you be the best out of those 200? You have to add value to yourself to make yourself stand out from the pack.

PatPete

Your predicament says it all. We all went through the idealistic phase in our youth where we believed technology was the future and we were guarenteed good employment for life. The world has changed and reverted back to the 50's in many ways. Finance, marketing, medicine and law are the areas where you can start off poor and become rich by the time you retire in most cases. For most technology graduates unless you are extremely lucky you retire with an average pension after 40 years of paying PAYE and just about clearing the mortgage.

For a short while there in the 80's and 90's there just weren't enough people to fill the better jobs in the technology areas.
Now there's a surplus and unlike other recognised professions these aren't real professions and frankly never will be.

The government is getting its knickers in a knot again about predicted shortages in the future for technology graduates of all types- students now a days see further than the recruitment crap these state agencies put out and focus on where they want to be 20 years, earning 50k a year having paid out half of it in PAYE just doesn't make sense.

The fact that such an experienced person such as yourself is in this predicament says it all. Get out of the technical side and improve your self esteem. Try a few management courses and fly out of your pigeon hole.

Mean while I strongly advise all potential students of technical courses to avoid them like the plague until we see a general upgrading of the regard with which technology is held- especially improved salaries and prospects.

Most 'suits' recruited nowadays by the coporate sector have to be experts in bull**** and finance not in technology. The junior roles continue to be filled mainly by technology graduates-- the latest campaign to encourage more people to study science really is just about keeping the numbers of graduates up- not about enhancing technology graduates prospects in the future.

Been there have the cheap tee-shirt to prove it.

WhiteWashMan

i would have thought then that if its 'suits' who talk bull that are getting the jobs, that people would recognise this and play the game.
afterall, most of the suits probably are.

i dont know, i think its all about finding out what is needed and selling yourself to fill that space.

one of the reasons why i got out of the IT technology sector was because i found it impossible to keep on top of all the latest technologies. while i am in sales in technology, i do not need to be an expert in any area other than my own products, but all i need is an understanding of where things fit, and why.

IT is for the younger people, those willing to work hard for little reward in an effort to get on the ladder. for me, i no longer want to have a crap salary, and im not prepared to work hard to keep up with a technology that will be obselete next week.

RicardoSmith

Sadly I think PatPete and WhiteWashMan are so right about this.

Kernel32

I seem to be in the minority as someone who absolutely loves the technology industry and has done well by staying in it. I thrive on keeping up with the latest and greatest. I will say that you do have to broaden your horizons as you gain experience or you will either fall behind in the technical areas or get pigeon holed in one particular area.

I have been lucky and now work as a hands on software development manager. Right now I have this guy working for me on contract, he has twice the number of years in the business as I do and the earlier part of his career is pretty impressive. He is useful to me because he has foxpro skills and he was an original developer on a product we are updating. Unless he shows some interest in updating his skills then he will not be hired full time. Its harsh in one way but I can't justify hiring him unless he upskills himself so he can be useful developing our other products. I have tried to talk to him and encourage him to work with the other developers to see if they can find a place for him when his project is done. So far all I have seen is disinterest. He never moved into management and at this point it would be hard for him to do so. Its a tough business, you have to keep up. If your standing still it means your falling behind because everybody else is moving ahead. The rewards can be fantastic though, I wouldn't change my profession for any other.

RicardoSmith

I wish all manager and jobs were as accomodating to upskill their staff. Most places just aren't interested.

PatPete

I also agree with Kernal32 - there are of course a small minority of Technologists who make it but the vast minority dont and this compares very badly indeed with other professions. My advise remains the same- if you really want a good career then for God's sake avoid technology like the plague. I am prepared to change my position but only when I see real improvements coming in the recogntion of the area as a proper profession. This of course is the very last thing any government of industry body want, howver if enough people walk away and go to other professions it might just happen but certainly not in the near future.

peedsmth

Can i empathise with deswbury - im in a similar position, the only difference being that i havent been able to get either permanent or contract employment for the past 3 years. I have no doubt that being in my forties is a big disadvantage. The vibe that i get from the "have you got any xml?" heads in the agencies is along the lines of - well if you havent retire by 40 then hoe can you expect to be employed. Well after 20+ years i havent retired, like a lot of other people. I have also gone to the bother of researching all the latest "hot" technology (.Net,J2EE,etc..etc...) to no avail. Its all very frustrating and depressing...

RicardoSmith

One suggestion PatPete made and I'd like to comment was that of diversifying into the business side of things. Much of my contracting work involved business analysis type of work along with development. I was definately being hired on my various contract roles because I could bring experience, even maturity to problem solving, and that past experience in good business practise and not just throwing technology at a problem. There was also that, generally spekaing a more mature, experienced person has better people skills if you are dealing with a diverse and difficult user group. Another requirement is that seem to exist was that of interfacing between business units and IT. This seems to be a role that fits a person with a broad experience better than dedicated coder. So maybe consider adding some other skills like business to that IT skillset.

When all is said and done you have to earn a living. If anyone can drive a taxi and earn 40-60k not need to do any qualifications or certifications. But its not possible to do that in IT even with degrees and certs then you have some to make some choices.

Nearly every day you see company outsourcing to the far east. This is the effect it is having. Its devaluing IT as career in the west.

chump

I think it comes down to this... (I amn't including professions)

Choose technology/science,
Be the best: do well
Be good/average: work like a dog, scrape by, little rewards

Choose Business/Commerce
Be the best: be a millionaire
Be good/average: study the week before exams, get a nice cushy job, make a bit of effort, show a bit of interest, up ya go... rewarded

There is a completely injust salary gulf between suits and techies, if you have any people skills, become a suit...

deadfingers

Im sorry if this thread goes off the point a little but I finishing college in a week I have studied Computer Science and wish to work in Networking working with severs and routers, is this aveune of I.T more stable than software development or just as unstable. Maybe I should have read this forum four years ago!! doh!!

nesf

chump wrote:

There is a completely injust salary gulf between suits and techies, if you have any people skills, become a suit...

Come to the dark side....

It's nice over here...

We have dental...

chump

I am nesf... just polishing off an unrelated degree in physics first though :eek:

regi

Choose IT as a hobby and nip down to Brown Thomas for a suit

WhiteWashMan

Regi wrote:

Choose IT as a hobby and nip down to Brown Thomas for a suit

you may say that in jest dan, but thats bang on the fúcking money!

if you have an interest or an understanding of IT and technology, then go and do something around it, but dont do IT.

its the difference between selling a server, and selling the services around it...

damnyanks

It really does depend on what you get into and where. I'm starting my first full time job (that doesnt last for a summer ). If I were in Ireland(In the UK) I'd be in the 42% bracket.

Ok I will be working in London so the cost of living has been taken into account. But there isn't a huge difference in the pay if I'd accepted the job in another part of the UK.

nesf

chump wrote:

I am nesf... just polishing off an unrelated degree in physics first though :eek:

Was a physics major myself in college.... so you're not lost yet...

AARRRGH

Something that hasn't really been mentioned...

There are hardly any IT jobs anymore.

I work for an online recruiter, and I assure you, for every IT job we post, there are millions of applicants.

The only exception to this rule is Java. However, no company wants an inexperieced Java professional.

RicardoSmith

dublindude wrote:

Something that hasn't really been mentioned...

There are hardly any IT jobs anymore.

I work for an online recruiter, and I assure you, for every IT job we post, there are millions of applicants.

The only exception to this rule is Java. However, no company wants an inexperieced Java professional.

Food for thought. I've heard yes there is and no there isn't from different agencies. In one case I was told that their were 200 applicants for one specific job. But then everyone I know is working. Including me. Though it took a bit of time to find something.

full forward

dublindude wrote:

Something that hasn't really been mentioned...

There are hardly any IT jobs anymore.

I work for an online recruiter, and I assure you, for every IT job we post, there are millions of applicants.

The only exception to this rule is Java. However, no company wants an inexperieced Java professional.

How good is Oracle to have? Im a developer currently upskilling to 10g. Im thinking of going the DBA route.

pwd

How do you move from technology into management or finance though?

RicardoSmith

pwd wrote:

How do you move from technology into management or finance though?

Wish I knew. I reckon you need to move to a new company to do it and take on a different role that has a mix of IT and the business. Kinda slide into it. For me the contracting work I did just required business analysis work aswell as development. I'd done some in the past because there was no one else to do it. Though at the moment I've slipped back into a mainly IT role.

damnyanks

Or maybe try and find a company that sells software services or hardware and start applying for a sales job there. If you go into that you are at least likely to find more opportunities in other area's open up as you'll have some experience with the whole business lark.

Or try for an MBA

AARRRGH

pwd wrote:

How do you move from technology into management or finance though?

I did this. I am an ex-programmer (Linux stuff) who is now an accountant.

This is how I moved -

Realised IT as a full-time job is not for me (for many reasons.) Got a job as an "accounts" person (not an accountant - general day to day accounts/payroll/hr stuff - it's not difficult if you're not a retard). Started studying accounting in college at night.

The only problem I found was this -

1. The drop in money is hard to adjust to (as an "accounts" person.) However after 9 months I was up to a lower-than-IT wage, but livable (i.e. more than 25k)
2. You start to miss IT... That's why I make websites a a hobby now. If you're an IT guy, you can never really get out...

So, moving from IT to finance/management can be done (easily.) It just takes courage.

PS Someone asked me about oracle. Yes, good money, but not many jobs. Java, for some reason, is the way to go. Also, .NET.

full forward

From RTE this morning....


Not enough graduates for IT jobs

May 26, 2005 07:20
A survey has found that there are now more than 8,000 vacancies in Ireland for IT and technology graduates.

The research, conducted by Dublin City University, suggests that the shortage in supply has been caused by a significant downturn in the number of students opting for computer studies in the wake of the dot.com collapse.

It also says the numbers graduating have not yet reached adequate levels four years after the technology meltdown.


Professor Michael Ryan, head of the Computer School at DCU, said it was unable to meet the demand from companies this year for third year students to do six-month paid placements.

The trend where demand for IT graduates exceeds supply is not only prevalent in Ireland. A recent survey of mid and large sized US companies by the Information Technology Association of America showed that there are more than 190,000 unfilled IT jobs because of a shortage of qualified workers.

Repli

Professor Michael Ryan, head of the Computer School at DCU, said it was unable to meet the demand from companies this year for third year students to do six-month paid placements.

Not surprised at this, I'm in 3rd year in DIT and everyone who wanted to do work placement got it (About 35 or so)

i71jskz5xu42pb

chump wrote:

There is a completely unjust salary gulf between suits and techies, if you have any people skills, become a suit...

Don't see how it is unjust? The labour market is about as free a market as you can get - employees get paid on the basis of the scarcity and value of their skills. Not only that employees have it well within their power to train up to pick up new skills.

That said, I'd be interested to know if there is empirical evidence to support the assertion that techies get paid less than their be-suited counterparts based on a like for like comparison in terms of education and experience.

Alun

But that's just it ... ther appear to be plenty of jobs for graduates, and people with 1-3 years experience (read cheap and "flexible"), but after that it begins to dry up. It makes you wonder what people with 25+ years of experience like me are supposed to be doing when you see jobs advertised at "senior" or "principal" level that ask for 3-5 years of experience!

And before anybody mentions the "m"-word, it's all very well saying people such as myself should be getting out of the technical side of things and into more managerial positions, but if everyone over the age of about about 30 did that after a few years we'd have an incredibly top-heavy industry with 10 times more managers than technical people.

And I wouldn't mind betting that a large number of these mythical 19,000 unfilled IT jobs consist of sitting behind a telephone for hours on end telling people to reboot their PC's, or check that they're switched on. "IT" my @arse.

AARRRGH

full forward wrote:

From RTE this morning....
Not enough graduates for IT jobs

May 26, 2005 07:20
A survey has found that there are now more than 8,000 vacancies in Ireland for IT and technology graduates.

I do not consider technical support to be an IT job.

What percentage of these "IT jobs" are not technical support?

Very few.

This article is BS. Look at the job websites. Where are the jobs? Also, please check out how many technical support vacancies there are. Tons.

PaschalNee wrote:

That said, I'd be interested to know if there is empirical evidence to support the assertion that techies get paid less than their be-suited counterparts based on a like for like comparison in terms of education and experience.

As I said earlier, I work for a large online recuitment company. Suits get paid a lot more. Have better long term prospects (you just get more senior with age - not "out of touch"). You can jump between industries. You can't be outsourced to Russia.

Being a suit is the way to go.

RicardoSmith

So I reckon we can sum this up as... IT" my @arse. Become a suit.

Unless of course you've got your dream job in IT already. I'm actually quite happy where I am as a analyst/programmer. But I just can't see a future in it in the long run. Maybe in a couple of years I'll have changed my mind. You never know.

nesf

dublindude wrote:

Being a suit is the way to go.

Being a "suit" brings it's own problems. Stress levels are insane etc. Also it's extremely compeditive in most industries and there's always someone junior to you wanting your job.

It's a different ball game altogether.

AARRRGH

nesf wrote:

Being a "suit" brings it's own problems. Stress levels are insane etc. Also it's extremely compeditive in most industries and there's always someone junior to you wanting your job.

It's a different ball game altogether.

Sure, but the money more than compensates.

Also, job security is important to me. I don't want to be worry about losing my job when I have kids (because China has opened their market etc.)

RicardoSmith

nesf wrote:

Being a "suit" brings it's own problems. Stress levels are insane etc. Also it's extremely compeditive in most industries and there's always someone junior to you wanting your job.

It's a different ball game altogether.

Theres lots of places where IT is a ball of stress aswell. Long hours, poor pay and poor conditions. Assuming you can get and hold on to the IT position in the first place. So i don't see how its signifcantly different in that regard tbh. Working conditions vary widely from one company to the other.

WhiteWashMan

i think the problem is pretty obvious.

even using the term 'suit' is supposed to be derogatory.

people dont want to be a 'suit' (read: managment, sales, etc) because people are afraid to step out of their own comfort zone.
people are afraid if the get less technical, then they will just become another anonymous person in a corperation.
people also think that they are keeping up the good techie fight against the power of the faceless corperation by doing a technical job. at least, thats what i find.

which is all just rubbish. i think people are just afraid to change, afraid to take on new responsiblities and are afraid to learn new things ebcause they are afraid they will fail.

how many people do you know that started off as techies, and are still doing it?
i know loads, because they are afraid to branch out.

if people dont adapt, then they get left behind. its no different if you are in a technology role, or if you are in a technical role, or if you are in a position of management.
you just need more stupid wastful certs in technical roles to prove you can hold useless information in your head.

we all know the trick of success in being technical is not knowing everything, but about knowing where to find all the answers.

the same goes for any other position. no one knows everything.

Alun

WhiteWashMan wrote:

which is all just rubbish. i think people are just afraid to change, afraid to take on new responsiblities and are afraid to learn new things ebcause they are afraid they will fail.

I think you'll find that's a common trait amongst all people, not just techies. To be honest not everybody is really cut out to be in a management role, just as everybody isn't cut out to be a doctor, brain surgeon or an airline pilot. I gave it a try a few years ago, wasn't very good at it and hated every minute of it. Unfortunately a lot of management, especially middle management is populated by people who have done the same thing in the pursuit of job security or career advancement and have failed to notice how bad they are at it. No wonder it gets a bad rap.

we all know the trick of success in being technical is not knowing everything, but about knowing where to find all the answers.

I know that, you know that, but there's a distinct lack of employers who realise that unfortunately.

WhiteWashMan

absolutely agree with you with regards to that not being just a feature of technical people.
most people are afraid of change.

those who embrace it and run with it and are seen to do so, will always be better off though.

nesf

Yeah there is a definite bias against "suits" in the technical and blue collar professions.

I don't blame them. I've worked as a guy doing the **** work on a factory floor and had to deal with some jumped up muppet of a manager who was the owner's son.


But people seem to think that "suits" have it easy, that they don't do real work etc. That simply isn't true. Yes there are some comfy easy "suit" jobs, they are just as many, if not more, jobs like that in other sectors. The pressures and responsibilities that come with most "suit" jobs follow them home in the evening. They don't get a break. It isn't a 40 hour a week job seperate from your life, it can be something that you're always on call for!

There is also this illusion of more money for less work. Eh, no. Upper management yes, but getting there takes a long, long time unless you are very lucky. Plus I know technical and trades people who make the same money with far less stressful work in their own companies.

peedsmth

Isnt it slightly ironic that the big media scrum over the past week relates to the lack of takers for the - alleged - 8000 positions for graduates, while at the same time people like myself are being sidelined by the industry because of our apparent senility. Well done to those college students i say! The've obviously been well advised - no doubt by some parents involved in the IT industry. Its all a symptom of the ongoing "grentrification" of IT in the western world - in conjunction with globalisation and the resulting spate of outsourcing and offshoring. The future for those of us who actuall enjoy coding is fairly bleak. As someone who has had the misfortune to spent some time in middle management, trying to at the one time keep an eye on deadline and on the other hand impart some knowledge to trainees, i think im qualified to say that the art of programming is woefully under valued.

Zentoad

Dewsbury et al,
I absolutely understand your position. I am also in my 40's, spent some time in the USA and am now redundant. I have been looking for work for months now. Reports of 8000 vacancies in IT irritate me. In order to come up with this number I believe that DCU did a survey of 5 online recruitment sites...

For a highly regarded institution, to propogate bu**sh*t like this is annoying. I would like to see the detail on their methodology.

The questions I'd like answered are,
How did they eliminate duplicate advertising?
How did they factor in agencies "trawling" for CVs?
Over what period were the 8000 jobs available?
How are you classifying IT?


For a better (my opinion) analysis of the Irish job market and work in IT, please read the following. It is from a US PHD student from UC Santa Barbara.

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~nbrown/ireland.html

//Joe

WhiteWashMan

peedsmth wrote:

The future for those of us who actuall enjoy coding is fairly bleak.

while i understand your position, isnt the onus really on you to make sure you are employable?

its not up to the world economy to make sure you have a job, or that you are up to date with specific skills.

its also not accpetable to say that just becuase you enjoy coding, so you should have a bright future.
hell, i like playing games and having sex. my future in those two areas also looks bleak with regards to earning a living...

drdre

i think the best thing is try start up your own business to devolp websites,consultancy to small and medium businesses, contract work etc. as jobs are a major issue nowadays.

anyway goodluck with the future

damnyanks

drdre wrote:

i think the best thing is try start up your own business to devolp websites,consultancy to small and medium businesses, contract work etc. as jobs are a major issue nowadays.

anyway goodluck with the future

Don't be silly

Look at business related software. There is a huge market for it. SME consultancy is a good idea but really if thats all your happy with you will probably be phased out by one of the larger corporations.

All those major multi no soul nationals started off somewhere . If anything you are at the advantage. You have nothing to lose, while the major players can't really delve into new technology straight away you can.