Almost have Degree, Have CCNA, No Experience - MCP/FAS/City&Guilds options?

Faltermyer

Long post so bear with me please....

In 3weeks ill be finished my Computer Science Degree, in a Software Engineering stream.

I have a CCNA as of last September.

I have 6months part-time experience in Technical Support in Telecomms industry(21months part-time call center experience before).

I want to get into Computer Network Creation/Config/Admin/Security - a la CCNA.

Im confident of my CCNA knowledge, and of my workplace experience - I dont view myself as a average "green-eyed-grad" given Ive experience in a Technical Environment, & have the CCNA .

I dont have any experience of using the CCNA knowledge - this does not hugely worry me as things will be done different within every company so introductory on-the-job training combined with a determined willingness to learn should allow for that.

However, what worries me more is my lack of any other day-to-day knowledge that might be needed for network management - such as Windows servers, scripting, unix etc.

Although ive done reasonably well in my degree, I do not have any unix or scripting knowledge, and not having had directly related workplace experience I dont have Windows servers experience.

Now, I know within any company, there will be common everyday tasks which make up only a tiny percentage of what can be done with Windows Server and Unix/Scripting, and that that knowledge can again be learned with a couple of weeks "dropped in the deep end" on-the-job training.
This is not something that id be worried about having to do.

But I would like to look toward some sort of relatively short-term achievable qualification that would provide me with some basic hands-on working knowledge of the likes of Windows Servers and Unix

Is the MCP any use?
Are there any courses run by the likes of FAS or City&Guilds(Have heard there are IT qualifications they do?) that can be done evenings/weekends etc?
Im looking for something that I can do in 4-8weeks ideally.

I realise I could simply go for a graduate position which would provide this, but I would prefer to skip the year or two that would waste if I can...

axer

I would def do the MCPs. I am just finishing the CCNA now - about to do my exams and my next step is to do my MCPs. It means you are covered for network hardware with the CCNA and the software/server end with your MCPs. Would make you alot more employable as a network admin. You should try and get a job in networking at the same time if possible to give you experience. Interviewers will look very favourably on you if you have started studying your MCPs. Also look into RHCE courses/exams and get covered in Linux too.

I am going to buy books and learn it myself as you dont need as much hardware to practice with as you do for CCNA. Just a trial version of Server 2003, a computer & a small network...

Just my 2c

Faltermyer

http://www.fas-netcollege.com/html/courses/techsupport/unix/unix.htm#

2 parts, 6-8hours for each.
No Certification though? Presume that simply means no recognised certification?


http://www.fas-netcollege.com/html/courses/techsupport/a+tech/aplustech.htm#
A lot longer -7 parts(7exams?) that need 6-8hours each, but the sort of knowledge Im after.
€120 +exam fees?? Anyone know how much these sort of exams cost?


Even the A+ looks like its doable in a few weeks/a month if you got the head down given its only a short period.

I am applying for some jobs as is, and am pretty confident of some, but if things dont go my way, I would stay in my part time position for an extra month or two and get the likes of the above rather than settle for a grad position.

But even if I get one of the jobs Im going for, Id still like to do the likes of the above.

So, has anyone done any of the above, or have any knowledge of the above courses?

Faltermyer

axer wrote:

I would def do the MCPs.

Interviewers will look very favourably on you if you have started studying your MCPs. Also look into RHCE courses/exams and get covered in Linux too.

I am going to buy books and learn it myself as you dont need as much hardware to practice with as you do for CCNA. Just a trial version of Server 2003, a computer & a small network...

I manged the CCNA using home study stuff only-book & simulation software, no access to any hardware, that said, I didnt pass first time... So doing the likes of an MCP using self study wouldnt bother me.

MCPs?? Do you mean do one for Win2k and XP and... and what?
Sorry, but Ive no knowledge of whats involved with MCPs or what different ones there are.

Microsofts site is a little confusing, in that it goes through the requirements for MCSEs which details something like I think 8exams??!

As a start, what MCP would you recommend, and could you recommend any particular self-study materials?


Just looking here:
http://www.comptia.com/certification/general_information/exam_pricing.aspx

At the prices of the likes of the A+ exam(s).
Are there 7exams like the FAS site shows it in 7parts??
That aint cheap - 7x€159 ??

Re-a job in the interim, I have applied for one in particular which I really want, am pretty confident for, and am determined to get - but this is my only weakness that other candidates may not have, so id like to at the very minimum have a plan of what Im going to do - as you say, that will bode well with interviewers.

Faltermyer

A+ is two exams.

http://www.comptia.com/certification/a/glancebox.aspx


Minimum Passing Score:
- A+ Core: 515
- A+ OS: 505.

Anyone know what the scores are out of? I.e. what % does that work out at?

EDIT:
Just Found:

http://www.comptia.org/certification/a/faqs.aspx#337
515 = ~57.2222%
505 = ~56.1111%

Seems pretty doable, particularly when compared to the damn 85% I had to get in the CCNA ...

stevenmu

AFAIR A+ exams cost about €200-€250, I think that's for each part.
MCPs are modules of the MCSE programs. There are different MCSE qualifications, which MCPs you do to get it depend on which MCSE you decide suits the career you want best.

Either way, any qualifications you get will be worth approximatly nothing without some experience. Really all they're good for is promotions and pay raises. I've dealt with people who have CCNAs, Cisco certs, MCSEs and all the rest and they've had absolutly no ability to do anything in the real world. Your best bet may be to get a job in an IT department somewhere where you'll get hands on experience with installations and responding to support requests. Then look at getting further qualifications in the evenings (a lot of companies will help you out with the costs for those)

Kali

Lots of companies are looking for junior network/it admins .. the only way you will learn stuff is by doing it.. you're young and if this is what you want to do then start at the bottom, get stuck in and learn loads and as soon as your work becomes stagnant (as it will in small companies) then move on to a bigger place

Anyway.. forget about qualifications, get a crappy pc and start playing around with different flavours of unix.. if you have broadband set yourself up a gateway/proxy box wth squid.. play around with postfix/exim/fetchmail.. learn about vlans, nat, wireless security, dmz policies, give yourself two years to see what you want to do (believe me theres a big difference between a network admin and a network engineer).

McClane

"MCSE is to computers as McDonalds Certified Chef is to fine cuisine."

"Man watching 6 MSCE's around a sun box, looks alot like the opening scene's of 2001:space odyssey and the monkey's with the monolith"

No offence to anyone but alot of places wouldn't use an mcse cert for toilet paper. A lot of places would have great time for the CCNA though (must get that sometime).

krankykitty

If you want to do the MCSE, first of all decide on whether to do the Windows 2000 or 2003 track. For either, do the client OS exam first - for both tracks the 70-210 (Win2k Professional) applies, or for 2003 only, Windows XP. Then follow that with either the Windows 2000 or 2003 server exam, depending on which track you are following.
The network infrastructure exam should be a piece of pi$$ after the CCNA...

Dundhoone

I have the option to do that Comptia A+ certification course in a couple of weeks..... is it something worth having on the cv or a waste of time? Any opinions?

Deadwing

Ive got the A+ and the N+, imo they are worth getting. For me anyway, i had no qualifications and these certs have opened a few doors for me now.
Theyre 120 or so euro per exam, but the A+ is 2 exams, one for hardware, one for software. N+ is only one exam. Its nice when fas pays for all 3 of them for you tho If anyone needs help with the A+ or N+ ive alot of course material and pdf sample questions kicking around.

stevenmu

They're better to have than not to have, and they're usefull to get a foot in the door, but actuall experience will always be better.

Faltermyer

Lads/Lasses, I realise that experience is always the best teacher.

But, what im getting at here is:

Could I avoid sitting in an IT Helpdesk style role for a year or more on probably the same money as Id be on if I was full time in my current Tech Support job, if I were to get thr likes of an A+ and/or some basic/quick Unix/Windows Server course/qualification??

Deadwing

Somehow, i doubt it. Ive been applying for alot of IT jobs lately, and every one asks, regardless of qualifications, for at LEAST a year experience.

eth0_

Faltermyer wrote:

Lads/Lasses, I realise that experience is always the best teacher.

But, what im getting at here is:

Could I avoid sitting in an IT Helpdesk style role for a year or more on probably the same money as Id be on if I was full time in my current Tech Support job, if I were to get thr likes of an A+ and/or some basic/quick Unix/Windows Server course/qualification??

Absolutely not...as you've said, you've no hands on experience. No manager or team leader is going to let someone with no real world experience free rein on their network!

What's the problem with sitting on helpdesk for 6 months to a year? It's a foot in the door!

I don't know why you're looking at A+ it doesn't really fit with your planned career. You'd be better doing N+ or RHCE - I don't think there are any official Unix certifications.

axer

Or what might be a good idea is do your CCNP.

Faltermyer

eth0_ wrote:

What's the problem with sitting on helpdesk for 6 months to a year? It's a foot in the door!

That I could sit on a Helpdesk for a year and still build up fcuk all relevant experience...

Faltermyer

axer wrote:

Or what might be a good idea is do your CCNP.

Eh, without experience??

Dont Cisco recommend like 2years experience for that?

I had planned going at the CCNP after 6months - 1 year anyway ... if, that is, I could get into a relevant position...

axer

Faltermyer wrote:

Eh, without experience??

Dont Cisco recommend like 2years experience for that?

I had planned going at the CCNP after 6months - 1 year anyway ... if, that is, I could get into a relevant position...

That wont stop me from doing it. As I said before - you could start it now and continue it when you get a job as it should be relevant to the job which may make it easier to study. Get yourself a Junior Network admin job. Shouldnt have too much trouble getting one with your CCNA etc.

Faltermyer

Hmm... Junior Network admin would be alright enough, would provide opportunity to get relevant experience.

What sort of salary would you guys expect a for Junior Network Admin, based on my rough profile - just grad BSc, CCNA, 6-8months Tech Support- ??

Assuming it didnt involve shift work - not that im not prepared to do some, but its easier to get a baseline without it.

Just wanna get a ballpark figure so I know what to expect. Nowhere seems to advertise salaries for anything that doesnt require 5years+ experience from what ive seen so far...

Deadwing

Faltermyer wrote:

Hmm... Junior Network admin would be alright enough, would provide opportunity to get relevant experience.

What sort of salary would you guys expect a for Junior Network Admin, based on my rough profile - just grad BSc, CCNA, 6-8months Tech Support- ??

Assuming it didnt involve shift work - not that im not prepared to do some, but its easier to get a baseline without it.

Just wanna get a ballpark figure so I know what to expect. Nowhere seems to advertise salaries for anything that doesnt require 5years+ experience from what ive seen so far...

it will involve shift work..trust me

Faltermyer

eth0_ wrote:

I don't know why you're looking at A+ it doesn't really fit with your planned career. You'd be better doing N+ or RHCE - I don't think there are any official Unix certifications.

As I explained at the start, Im not really sure what I should do, and when I started searching around for qualifications that cover everyday IT tasks, I came across the A+...
Just checked out the N+ on Comptia's site - I get the feeling that having the CCNA, the N+ would be a bit of a waste as it would be overshadowed by the CCNA anyway?

RHCE looks like it would be great to have/know, but seems overkill for what Im looking for at the moment.

Energizer

A+ scores r out of 900!

I'm doing the A+ and net+ coarse in the jervis st fas centre!
Just finished a+ section on tuesday:
OS score - 760
hardware score - 837

It's a good coarse and gives a good grounding in networking (linux and windows)!

Deadwing

Energizer wrote:

A+ scores r out of 900!

I'm doing the A+ and net+ coarse in the jervis st fas centre!
Just finished a+ section on tuesday:
OS score - 760
hardware score - 837

It's a good coarse and gives a good grounding in networking (linux and windows)!

haha are you doing michael rohans class? I did that last year in jervis st, it was a great course but he could be such a dickhead.. :rolleyes:

JohnnyMobile

The A+ and net+ are well worth doing. Great to have on your CV along with CCNA.
Ashfield college do an intensive 4 day course for both and you do the exams ont he fifth day, very simple to be honest.

Im not sure about the MCP route its not something I would be into how about CCNP roadmap?

I think what you might benefit from is a good technical position (not helpdesk) which provided lots of training. Try get into a junior position in a large company's IT department. They will pay for your courses etc and you will use your knowledge on the job.

jank

Kinda in the same boat as ye. Ill be finished my master's in 2 months or so, Have an Hons BSc, CCNA and Securty + (Got bored last summer so i did some Comptia stuff, wanted to do linux+ next but ran out of time/got lazy )

Even with all those qualifications I feel that the best I will be able to do is some be a help desk jockey. Thing is if your after development then your better of looking at sun certs and the like but for me well Ill take anything i can get my hands other then phone work. Although saying that if the pay was good i d do it for six months or so to develop "experience" :rolleyes:

Things are improving though so I hope ill be able to get something decent with out having the min 1 year experience.

Faltermyer

Shift work, though Id prefer to avoid it, I am prepared to do. Im well used to it at this stage with working part-time(20-25hrs/wk), mostly late shifts.

Regular night shifts however are something I really really would like to avoid, even if the money is good.

4Day intensive in Ashfield College sounds promising, would get it out of the way fairly quickly. Much more expensive obviously than self study, but certainly quicker. And Ashfield is very close to me.

Will check that out.

In the meantime Im simply grabbing everyone&anyone I know with any helpdesk/network experience and plugging them for what they did/do and used/use in daily work.

Hopefully this will at least give me an idea of what Id need to know.

Faltermyer

JohnnyMobile wrote:

how about CCNP roadmap?

CCNP roadmap??

po0k

Cisco Certified Network Professional, the next level up from CCNA, it comprises of several modules though.

The next step up after CCNP is CCIE - Cisco Certified Internetwork(-ing?) Expert.
Good luck trying to get that

Faltermyer

I know what the CCNP is.

Im just wondering what this "Roadmap" lark is?

Energizer

Ye rohan can be a dickhead! but it is a very good coarse and he does know what he's talkin about!

Philbert

McClane wrote:

"MCSE is to computers as McDonalds Certified Chef is to fine cuisine."

"Man watching 6 MSCE's around a sun box, looks alot like the opening scene's of 2001:space odyssey and the monkey's with the monolith"

Some very sweeping statements here. Especially considering Microsoft have such a gigantic market share in the destop & server operating system.

And very disconcerting to someone who might be working their bollox off to get the MCSE.

Id appreciate it if you could back up your opinions with some actual evidence or how exactly you came to such conclusions.

po0k

It's pretty accurate though.

I've come across a few MCSE's who were altogether useless.

kjt

axer wrote:

Or what might be a good idea is do your CCNP.

CCNP.... you sort of need to be working in Network admin for a while to even get your head around some of that. I'm doing CCNA myself and only doing the Semester 3 test this wk. Tis hard going I think. I'm also doing A+ and I find that easy enought, I have the end practical 2mrw which shouldnt be a problem at all. I will be applying for the exam within the next few wks. CCNA soon


Congrats on ccna

Deadwing

Energizer wrote:

Ye rohan can be a dickhead! but it is a very good coarse and he does know what he's talkin about!

haha..yeah, does he still bang on about how much he knows about the military? Man he never shut up, youd swear hed been in f*ckin vietnam..but one of the guys in our class father in law was a colonel in the army and found out all the service he ever did was in the military police..he was a sunday soldier lol

Energizer

Thank u very much deadwing, that has made my day! i'll make sure he never hears the end of it!

Kali

Faltermyer wrote:

What sort of salary would you guys expect a for Junior Network Admin, based on my rough profile - just grad BSc, CCNA, 6-8months Tech Support- ??

Upto 20k... with your first job, forget about the money and just work at it till you can't learn anymore from the job (say 6-9 months) then leave and add another 3-5k onto your salary... repeat until earning loads.

Deadwing

Energizer wrote:

Thank u very much deadwing, that has made my day! i'll make sure he never hears the end of it!

lol no problem..but dont give me away as the source, ive got him down as a reference!! lol

Faltermyer

Kali wrote:

Upto 20k... with your first job, forget about the money and just work at it till you can't learn anymore from the job (say 6-9 months) then leave and add another 3-5k onto your salary... repeat until earning loads.

eh... I wasnt expecting anything amazing, but up to 20k?!!

If I was full time(i.e. doing a full time week,pay rate by hour is same for P/T or F/T) in my current Tech Support job id be on over 23k. Granted that would involve some varied shifts, though not workin later than 10:30pm and only early shifts at the weekend.

I know, yes id be gaining experience, but there is a limit ...

Kali

Faltermyer wrote:

eh... I wasnt expecting anything amazing, but up to 20k?!!

If I was full time(i.e. doing a full time week,pay rate by hour is same for P/T or F/T) in my current Tech Support job id be on over 23k. Granted that would involve some varied shifts, though not workin later than 10:30pm and only early shifts at the weekend.

I know, yes id be gaining experience, but there is a limit ...

You seriously wouldn't work 6-9 months at that salary? Come on.. you have no relevant experience so you have to be realistic (unless you have a whopping car loan/mortage/baby)... there are lots of small companies who would hire a full-time network admin at that salary or else just look for a part-time admin role and the odd networking nixers (thats how I started)... that salary will jump to 25+ as soon as you have that first few months under your belt. This is actually assuming you want to be in this career, otherwise just pray you get lucky and land a decent job

Faltermyer

If the right job comes along Im not going to turn it down over a few grand a year in salary, I just think 20k is a little low for the job.

McClane

Some very sweeping statements here. Especially considering Microsoft have such a gigantic market share in the destop & server operating system.

Yes they have a gigantic share of desktops and a large share (Not as large as u think) of servers, what does that prove ?

Id appreciate it if you could back up your opinions with some actual evidence or how exactly you came to such conclusions.

I don't mean to be rude but i've seen this and heard it from several empoyers that they have no respect for the MCSE whatsoever.

If your interested i read an article a while ago about someone comparing the RHCE (Or LPI exam but i'm pretty sure it was the RH one) to the MCSE. The author possessing neither qualification but having a great deal of experience in both OS's undertook both exams without studying and failed the RHCE (By quite a bit if i remember) while getting a high grade in the MCSE. Not proof per se but an indictation none the less.

I think another point that can be made is the underlying OS. I could rant on for quite a bit about the downfalls of Windows but i think i can sumarise it into "windows is ****e". The power that you get with a Unix OS compared to Windows is remarkable and even for a non-Unix job, experience and a qualification in that field is far more likely to impress then a MCSE ever could.

Saying that, even though i've never met any employer who would rank it high i'm sure there are jobs and people out there who would disagree.

Faltermyer

McClane wrote:

The author possessing neither qualification but having a great deal of experience in both OS's undertook both exams without studying and failed the RHCE (By quite a bit if i remember) while getting a high grade in the MCSE.

Couldnt that be looked at another way?

In that he was well capable of the MCSE because he had plenty of experience?
Therefore, the MCSE is a good way of verifying someones practical abilities as opposed to that they know every in&out of a system??
Is it possible that the RHCE covers things which are rarely ever used in most environments?? And if so, is there really a huge benefit in knowing them very well?

Kernel

McClane wrote:

downfalls of Windows but i think i can sumarise it into "windows is ****e".

Rubbish.

Faltermyer

Lads... could we keep this on topic please??
Some contributions on how employers may view certain qualifications are useful, but can we keep the arguments elsewhere?

McClane

In that he was well capable of the MCSE because he had plenty of experience?

He also had plenty of experience on Red Hat. He claimed to have an equal amount on both.

Therefore, the MCSE is a good way of verifying someones practical abilities as opposed to that they know every in&out of a system??

Well he claims that the MCSE was "too easy" and that the RHCE was "What i expected from an exam for such a position". Then again i've never taken either so remember its what i read not my view per se although i know MCSE's and .. well lets just say if they can get it and it shows the amount of knowledge one needs to get it, i'm not impressed.

Is it possible that the RHCE covers things which are rarely ever used in most environments?? And if so, is there really a huge benefit in knowing them very well?

From what i know the rhce is a very practical usage exam although i'd want something less vendor specific myself like the LPI. (Whose first stage is pretty basic and easy to tell u the truth).

Rubbish.

Windows is a joke of an OS, i want my computer to do what i want it to do, not have a choice of options to do what some software engineer at redmond thinks i want. I don't want an OS integrated with everything from a word editor to my web browser to my games which makes it insecure, i want to choose. I don't want applications so close to the kernel that they pose a huge security risk to my entire system. If theres a bug in my browser/web serving software i want it to only affect that software, not my entire system.

Windows is rubbish.

JohnnyMobile

Kali wrote:

Upto 20k... with your first job, forget about the money and just work at it till you can't learn anymore from the job (say 6-9 months) then leave and add another 3-5k onto your salary... repeat until earning loads.

20k Euro? seriously I know lads with no qualifications that are working in junior support roles where I work that kick off on 26k with no experience. PM me if you want further details

JohnnyMobile

McClane wrote:

Windows is a joke of an OS, i want my computer to do what i want it to do, not have a choice of options to do what some software engineer at redmond thinks i want. I don't want an OS integrated with everything from a word editor to my web browser to my games which makes it insecure, i want to choose. I don't want applications so close to the kernel that they pose a huge security risk to my entire system. If theres a bug in my browser/web serving software i want it to only affect that software, not my entire system.

Windows is rubbish.

I think thats a little harsh. I use nix based OS's where possible but I can see why large companies deploy MS based machines. For example think of the added support costs to replace all of a companys helpdesk staff with qualified unix/linux support staff. Now I can see the arguement that non-ms operating systems generally require less support but even down to training. Its a fact that most average users know how to use ms office etc so when they start in a company there is generally no training required. Again the argument could be made that star office is just as easy to use and open source software deployment would cut alot of the costs involved and pay for the more qualified support required. I think on balance there is no reason why linux/unix couldnt replace ms in general but the simple fact remains that not many companies are willing to take the leap into the relatively/perceived unknown.

I hate mac's, machines and software, but some people use them... their decision, doesnt make them ****e (although they are )

I would agree that MCSE these days is not worth alot. Ive worked with MCSE lads that didnt know how to ssh into a server and restart a process.... what use is a room full of MCSE qualified lads if they are in a non-ms environment??

I think this is particularly evident when you look at the majority of servers used in the company I work for which is a large global... everything at the core runs off sun equipment ... end users use ms os's... the only place for microsoft certified staff is supporting end users... and there is rarely good money at that.

axer

http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?sortby=4&orderby=1&IT_Rates=IT_Skills&q=&id=800
http://www.contractoruk.com/training/ (look at the bottom table)

http://certcities.com/editorial/features/story.asp?EditorialsID=86

#1: Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert (CCIE)
#2: Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer: Security (MCSE: Security)
#3: Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)
#4: Cisco Certified Security Professional (CCSP)
#5: Cisco Certified Network Professional (CCNP)
#6: Linux Professional Institute Certification Level 2 (LPIC-2)
#7: Novell Certified Linux Professional (Novell CLP)
#8: MySQL Core Certification
#9: Security+
#10: Project Management Professional (PMP)

Faltermyer

fcUk me lads Im moving to the UK:

7 CCNP 0.63 % £28.50 £282 £50,500
8 CCNA 0.57 % £22.14 £266 £39,063

McClane

I think thats a little harsh. I use nix based OS's where possible but I can see why large companies deploy MS based machines.

I'm not saying its not a great certification for employment, you'll more then likely get a job with it. I'm saying its the type of job you get with it and what the employer expects from you. In all fairness i have met people with it who i wouldn't let administrate an internet cafe. Its not the fact its Windows specific alone, although thats a huge factor, its simply the Windows of Qualifications, The mcdonalds of food.

#1: Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert (CCIE)
#2: Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer: Security (MCSE: Security)
#3: Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)
#4: Cisco Certified Security Professional (CCSP)
#5: Cisco Certified Network Professional (CCNP)
#6: Linux Professional Institute Certification Level 2 (LPIC-2)
#7: Novell Certified Linux Professional (Novell CLP)
#8: MySQL Core Certification
#9: Security+
#10: Project Management Professional (PMP)

Your point please ?